• Posted 12/19/2024.
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    =====================
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Indigo prices

epidemic

epidemic

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I am curious as to what you think of the following thread, of course, you can see that I have made my opinion quite clear and I actually give most of the Drys I produce away. I just find it odd and in poor taste that someone would complain about the price of something, on an open forum, since we are living within a free market system. Perhaps I have been a bit too hard on Marcia and I will apologize for such, should the general concensus feel an apology is warranted.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83076

Tony, I know you have some issues with Robert, but keep in mind, this is in regards to indigo prices in general, not the individual breeders! ;0)

Thanks (in advance) for your thoughts,

Jeff
 
hello Jeff,it seems to me that you were baited into that debate. i believe you should be able to get what you want for them even if its more or less than someone else. if i had the money I'd buy a $1100 hatchling just for a pet.
 
Jeff,
I think you are 100% correct in your response. This person seemed very illogical in her responses and has obviously not done any research on Drymarchon. I also think that it was VERY inappropriate to post that on Robert's For Sale ad. If I want to sell an animal, I can sell it at any price I want to. I think that some of the Ball Python "Morphs" are WAAAAAAY overpriced. Some slight abberant pattern commands big bucks...I could claim that they are criminal in their pricing and yet, we aren't talking about a threatened species like the Easterns. It makes me very angry when people think they have the right to call someone a crook when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. :hot:
Of course, people with that level of intelligence can't be shown the light, because to do so would require a much higher level of objectivity than they posses. I don't know why, but that lady really got me steamed.

John Bortel
 
I also think that it was VERY inappropriate to post that on Robert's For Sale ad.
Click to expand...

I agree with this statement but Marcia was really responding to another poster and the thread turned into a debate. As you can see from my posts I didn't agree with her stance so I am not defending her position here.

This is not meant to be a dig on Jeff, but his posts probably did more to discourage the purchase of an Indigo than Marcia's overpriced posts. I found it informative and interesting. But like you said not appropiate in the For Sale forum.
 
Sorry Jeff, didn't read it,...too busy. But I will say this. A person should be able to get top dollar for an indigo. I know personally what it takes to make an indigo, and I know they are a top dollar snake. I sold my house to fund this effort. I have put my heart and soul, blood sweat and tears, into this effort. And I hope some day, to get back what I have put into it. If I don't, my wife will never let me hear the end of it. But at the same time, I recognize how a big price tag might inhibit someone's ability to get what they want. To them I say, " it took me 40 years to get what I have, and it's not a lot." So all I can say is just don't give up. Never. If someone applies enough pressure, for a long enough duration, in the direction of what they seek, they will eventually get what they want. Time, and pressure folks, that's what it takes. Yes prices are high. But if we implement the conservation plan that I keep harping about, supply will go up, and prices will come down. Hmmm.
T.
 
You know, you all jumped on me for asking a question in that post... I wasn't looking to get into the topic on there and felt asking why they weren't selling was an okay question to ask... I don't breed snakes for money, I just don't need the money... I want one trio of Indigos only and that's all I want... What I don't want is a snake that take 9 months to sell and seeing 4 different breeders posting the same ad week after week wasn't doing much to make me think this is a quick moving snake... I'm too busy with my business to deal with having babies forever and I think my question was a very valid one as my impression is that the snake doesn't sell ver well..

I understand minimum wage hasn't gone up in 10 year, the housing market fell out, the yeild curve has been flat for the last 18 months and that in general $1,100 snakes aren't selling but three years ago when I lived in a State that I couldn't own them there were none to be bought, now it's as easy as making a call and figuring out what breeder you like the most...

This has been a huge wakeup call into the high schooler like way that people with an opposing opion are viewed/treated and I felt more like I was dealing with Debeers then a group of good hearted snake breeders.. The things you assume when somebody wants a valid reason as to why the price of a snake has gone up 40% in a year was amazing.. This is still a quastion that hasn't been answered...

There is no blue book for snakes so questioning the price isn't out of line... There is no base line as to why the price is what it is, no real good way to figure what something should sell for other then the past... Of course the market sets it's own price but so far I haven't seen what that price is... For myself, I think the Texas is harder to find, easier for me to work with in my location and in addition to being as good looking clearly much easier to sell... I was offered a trio of the Easterns for $2,400 by one of the breeders and to me that still seems a little high when you factor in the lower number of people you can market to and having to deal with the permits...

So I guess that's what I have to say about things and a hope you welcome future people with a warmer hello then you did me...
 
The idea isn't that the price has gone up or down. The idea is that if someone has a snake and they want $5000 for it, then you haven't the right to tell them that the price is too high. I understand that you want a trio. That doesn't mean you get to state what price the snakes should be. If you don't like the price, you don't buy from that person. They will either sell them or not, get that price or lower it. Their business.
I used to breed my yorkshire terriers and ran into this problem all the time. I advertised a puppy for $800. I got calls from people saying "Well, I think that is too much. I can get one for $200 at the local flea market." That always steamed me up! If you don't want to pay the $800 for my high quality puppy that I have invested my time and effort into, why waste my time to call and say you will buy somewhere else? Just go buy elsewhere.
Sure some people probaly charge less for their snakes. So.. buy from them. Anyone can charge what they like for their own animals. Last year in ball pythons I stated that I wouldn't pay $8K for a Ivory when someone ASKED MY OPINION. They are gorgeous, but not worth the price since they didn't fit into my projects, so I didn't care to look into them. I never contacted someone or posted in their ad that I felt the price was too high. I simply didn't buy one. This year the same Ivory type is going for MUCH less, but I still am not buying any, because my reasons are the same. Other people will happily get them at the lower price.
And to post on a AD thread that you don't like the price is rather rude and crass.
All my opinion only.
Wolfy
 
Marcia, if you were offered a trio of eastern's for $2400, I would have taken it as that is a bargain, but that is me. You don't have to buy for any certain price and they don't have to sell for a certain price...period.
Think about it this way, the supply of these species is much more limited than most other species, such as boas, etc. They sometimes don't breed every year, they aren't able to be wild collected, such as the cribo's. There is a limited gene pool in the existing captive bred population. All of these factors make it where they increase in price every year. Lower supply, but higher demand creates higher prices...basic economics. If these things bred like house snakes, or had 30 in a clutch like boas, I am sure you would see prices come down because breeders would out price other breeders. I am not as educated on all the species of drymarchon, but that is my understanding. I am sorry you didn't feel welcomed, but this forum would have been a more appropriate way to voice concerns than on anothers ad.
Most people here are very helpful and I hope you find what you are looking for. Indigos are a very rewarding species.

Best regards,

John Bortel
 
Very good response,...I would ad that it may appear as if indigos are hard to sell, but they would actually move much more quickly if we did not have all the associated paperwork and the $100 federal permit fee. I would like to see a more relaxed government approach to the issue. I propose that the Feds make the following changes.
The interstate commerce permitting process and fees is o.k the way it is, except that it should be a one time thing. Once a person has paid their fee, and jumped through the appropriate hoops, that permit should not have a three month time frame, it should be permanent. Maybe a minimal annual fee to keep it activated, if you like. And maybe the permittee should be required to phone in additional acquisitions, but once they have their permit, it should last.
I would further reccomend that private breeding, commerce, and ownership of the eastern indigo should be legal, and uninhibited in ALL states. The more breeders, and breeding activity we can get, the better. But we must also begin a studbook, at a bare minimum. Or a genetic database when we get the finances to pay for it. This will help us keep an eye on the genetic health of the overall population. Once we get things going, you will see a drop in prices for sure.
As for the original poster, I am sorry if you are having a bad experience here. You might do what I do. Take a deep breath, and keep comming back. Let them say whatever they want, but don't let it get you down. Just keep comming back. Myself, I am very hard headed, so it may appear that I am beating my head against the wall around here sometimes. But for folks like me, I guess that is what it takes to learn. And at the end of the day, if I have learned something, and nobody got hurt,...it's all been worth it. Keep comming back!
T.
 
Marcia-

You posed a question and I gave you an answer as an individual experienced in working with and breeding virtually every Drymarchon spp. available. Go back and read your initial question and my reply to such. As you can see, it was you who decided to debate my response and indicate what you believed to be a fair price for a species you have absolutely no experience with. Not to mention, you did so within the context of an individual’s advertisement, which I still find in very poor taste, as this is the area to bring about such an issue, not the classifieds.
Normally, I try to be very diplomatic regarding my replies to topics, issues and questions I do not necessarily agree with, but you continued your diatribe, all the while, comparing apples to oranges, indicating wage rates, home costs and other completely unrelated non-sense. You indicated that you were offered a trio of D. couperi for 2,400.00, which to the majority of us sounds VERY reasonable, yet you still indicated your belief the price was too high, I suppose you should have stipulated D. couperi are worth only 750.00 each, or less, as 800.00 each was only 50.00 more than you indicated as being fair for such specimens and I doubt you will find such an opportunity again on the open market. I do harbor concerns though, as it appears to me you are looking to breed Indigos in the future, since you are looking for a trio. Is it your intent to breed related animals together, or sell related animals in pairs for other’s to breed? If so, you may wish to follow the lengthy discussion regarding in-breeding of the species, as we cannot simply run out and take more from the wild when we need to increase the captive gene pool.
Again, you may wish to visit www.indigosnakes.com and contact several of the breeders listed and negotiate a deal, but it has been my experience, folks who produce indigos always sale their wares at the price they ask. Unfortunately, not everyone harbors the financial capacity to own an indigo, but you are the first I have found to allow this to become such an antagonist, as everyone else appears to have made the financial issue a motivator, saved to acquire their own indigos and boast with pride on the forums when they finally acquired them.
It was stated that my posts may have done more to negate the sale of an Indigo. I seriously doubt this, as most people giving serious consideration to acquiring such have been exposed to the species and/or done their homework regarding the work and costs associated with such an acquisition and the captive maintenance of such. I will tell anyone; Drymarchon spp. are not for everyone and if you are going to allow the cost and effort required to acquire such antagonize you, then I seriously doubt they are for you.
I apologize if I sound rude, but the truth is often brutal…

Best regards,

Jeff
 
And the people said,....

Amen. No body could possibly argue with that. Now go have a beer, or get laid or something. I am worried about YOUR blood preasure. LoL
T.
 
It was stated that my posts may have done more to negate the sale of an Indigo.
Click to expand...

This was me and I wanted to state that I didn't mean for this to come off as being a negative. As I mentioned more than once I found these threads informative.
 
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Jeff, what I've found from you is that you're assuming something... I have breed snakes as a sole source of income and worked with animals so uncommon that it makes the Indigo look like a garter snake...

Most of the people posting in these threads have paid $350-$750 for your Eastern so clearly you're going to debate to the death their value at $1,100 as you have a vested interest in doing so... Never trust somebody with the motivation of money behind their statement...

The only thing that has been failed to be answered time after time after time on here is why the price increase? In most cases this has to do with something, the Mandrin Rat, has always kept it price, not gone up or down really due to how hard it is to breed and the limited number of people wanting them.. The Indigo falls into the same group.. I see this price hike and being motivated 100% by people trying to get more money out of the snake, there's no other reason for it.. Clearly it's not demand when there is a choice of 3 or 4 people you can call today and purchase them from..

So Jeff, here's what I know.. You will tell me that this isn't money motivated and neither is your deffending the price even though you have a LARGE collection of Indigos, of course you "give" them all away anyway... You're also going to 100% avoid a valid reason for the price going up because you don't have the ground to stand on..

Last year they were in short supply and I think Robert jumped up and figured he could get more money for them so that's what's happening.. End of story case closed... Robert however comes off to everybody I've talk to that has dealt with him like a total arse hole and is the single handed factor behind why I would rather not have the Eastern Indigo.. On top of that, it looks to be the most common of the Indigos so I think I'll pick something up that's a little less mainstream...

While I'll thank you for the fourthcoming response it's not going to be anything but hot air so you're more then welcome to just save your time...
 
DesertHerper said:
Jeff, what I've found from you is that you're assuming something... I have breed snakes as a sole source of income and worked with animals so uncommon that it makes the Indigo look like a garter snake...
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I have found that those who must speak unsolicted of their own experience so highly often have the least experience in reality. Perhaps you feel that you must since noone seems to have any clue who you are despite your self proclaimed extensive experience.

The only thing that has been failed to be answered time after time after time on here is why the price increase? In most cases this has to do with something, the Mandrin Rat, has always kept it price, not gone up or down really due to how hard it is to breed and the limited number of people wanting them.. The Indigo falls into the same group.. I see this price hike and being motivated 100% by people trying to get more money out of the snake, there's no other reason for it.. Clearly it's not demand when there is a choice of 3 or 4 people you can call today and purchase them from..
Click to expand...
Free market system. People can charge what the market tolerates. Gee, let me think why there are 3 or 4 people offering them ....... oh yeah, eggs are all hatching. It is that time of year. What a phenomenon. Of course, the supply this year is dramatically smaller than past years since most of the major breeders have been unsuccessful. Even Robert's supply is significantly less than last year.


So Jeff, here's what I know.. You will tell me that this isn't money motivated and neither is your deffending the price even though you have a LARGE collection of Indigos, of course you "give" them all away anyway... You're also going to 100% avoid a valid reason for the price going up because you don't have the ground to stand on..
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Jeff is known nationwide by institutions, herpetoculturists, and agencies for his generosity for the good of education, conservation, and propagation. It is cute when an unknown such as yourself with no reputation other than your self propaganda attacks the motivations of one of the most respected individuals in the Drymarchon community.


Last year they were in short supply and I think Robert jumped up and figured he could get more money for them so that's what's happening.. End of story case closed... Robert however comes off to everybody I've talk to that has dealt with him like a total arse hole and is the single handed factor behind why I would rather not have the Eastern Indigo.. On top of that, it looks to be the most common of the Indigos so I think I'll pick something up that's a little less mainstream...
Click to expand...
There was a larger supply in previous years so there goes that ill-conceived theory. I have also spoken to Robert and found him very pleasant and genuinely concerned about the couperi conservation and education. By all means choose another species if you like. I have never seen anyone engage is such a futile effort to complain and debate prices in my life.
 
The only thing that has been failed to be answered time after time after time on here is why the price increase?

O.k., here's the short list,...
rats, mice, chicken, bunnies, fish, paper, paper towels, cleaning supplies, constant cleaning, constant vigilance, and constant hands on working with each animal on a daily basis, cages, lights, timers, electric bill, $100Federal permit, gas, shipping, vet bills, and the list goes on and on. It's always something, and it never stops, but I love every minute of it. And if I can ever get back what I have invested, I will consider myself EXTREMELY blessed. But it is not likely since the price of everything else is also eternaly rising. Every drymarchon breeder that I knnow of would agree with everything Jeff and I have said, I think. Maybe not. If you don't think so then go to the breeders list at www.indigosnakes.com, and ask each one of them,...see what they say. Now stop your crying, let it go, and take a few deep breaths, meditate, or go for a walk. Hell, have a drink if you want. I'll buy. But believe me, all of you, when I say that nobody will ever get rich from indigos. When you do the math, you'll see why. And if you don't like the prices, then jump through all the hoops that we have, and invest all we have, and then you can beller as loud as you want about prices. But you won't beller. Because you will know what we already know. You get more poop out of drymarchon than anything else. Except the deep level of personal staisfaction that you are helping to perpetuate a magnificant species. If you have never handled one, I invite you to meet with me some time. My couperi are the most amazing things I have ever seen. Period. Now if you want to get into the most amazing snakes on the planet, do what we have done. Jump through all those hoops. Keep working toward what you want and you will get there. Stop worrying about the price. If it's what you love, price does not matter. Good luck, and good will,
T.
 
I think $1100 is a lot to pay for a snake or any other pet, but if someone gave me a $5000 ball python morph, I would gladly trade it for a pair of Easterns, if I could keep them in Florida. :)

It's not just general supply and demand, it's what that individual values which determines if it is a good deal or not to them.....
 
Marcia,

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but after all this explanation to your question, I just don't think you understand economics OR herpetoculture. In my book you are still trying to stir a pot that has been stirred in excess. Many of us gave you specific examples of why costs increase, why prices rise, etc. If you want to assume it's because breeders of the species are money hungry jerks, we can't obviously change your mind.
IF I had a pair of INDIGO's to sell, I wouldn't sell them to you for $2000 a piece. I have a pair of corn snakes I wouldn't sell at ANY price because they are my pets. You will find that keepers of drymarchon are passionate about the species and that passion is a testament to their value in the quality of the animal. I am glad these are out of your price range because I doubt you could do the research required for proper husbandry.

To the members of this board, I am sorry for my outburst. I am acting alone and not as a voicebox for this board, but I have had enough of this nonsense. I cannot stand to see a person debate, start arguments and not listen to a word said. Time for another cup of coffee....lol :uzi:
 
Time wasted..

Well, I believe it is time we threw this issue on the barbi and get back to taking care of matters that aren’t hopeless. Besides, I have to go count all of the money I have stuffed into my coffers from this year’s breeding efforts and try to give as little to Uncle Sam as possible! Now, where’d I put that big, fat sock stuffed with dineros?
I feel for Marcia, as I doubt she will never fully realize the pleasure most of us incur from working directly with D. couperi, or any other species for that matter.
Marcia, if you’re still watching, I will be happy to give you a pair of D. m melanurus next year, just to provide you with a example of what you will be dealing with, should you decide to acquire D. couperi later on. Personally, I have not seen red-throat D. couperi being offered for less than 1,000.00 each in years, but then again, I know of only a few individuals working with such, so I have not noticed a great price increase in these and I can tell you, it has been at least 15 years since I saw a D. couperi sell for under 700.00 and you may wish to check on Robert Sieb’s website, as he has been offering his red-throat specimens for 1,000.00 – 1,100.00 for years, so I fail to see the great price increase you are indicating.
Anyhow, yes, I do give the majority of what I produce away each year and I only recently started to sell any, as I am recently married and the wife didn’t like what I was spending to provide for my collection and after conducting a bit of research, she realized that there was a real market for them, so I agreed to sell no more than half of what I produce and give the rest away. Now, you indicated that your sole source of income is from the captive husbandry of the snakes within your collection, so I believe it is you who has the vested interest and should consider such, especially when complaining of prices. You further indicate that you work with species that make D. couperi look like Thamnophis. Well, you either have some extremely large snakes, or a species that should allow you to generate enough income to acquire D. couperi at any price. However, I am aware of several species, for which I believe the price is far below the value of the animals being sold, such as Pituophis ruthveni.
Marcia, I truly apologize for offending you, but you cannot fully realize the value of a species until you have actually interacted with it. Tony has generously offered to allow you to visit his facility and he does have some amazing animals and I too would welcome you to visit my facility, as I believe only hands on experience will allow you to fully understand what we are working with. If, after working with the species, you still disagree, then I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree.
I hate to see the indigo forum in such an uproar and I feel responsible for such, so I apologize to all of you for dragging this topic into what is normally a very civil forum.

Best regards,

Jeff
 
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