I'sn't it a beauty?

[alphonzo]

This is a Elaphe guttata guttata X Lampropeltis getula nigra.

What do you think? Isn't it a beauty?

 

[Seamus Haley]

No.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I knew that was coming.

 

[alphonzo]

No.

Ok, that's clear

Some explanation from my side.
I got this snake from a friended snakebreeder.

I sometimes am in doubt of hybrids.
But I do not mind it when people keep to the following rules:

1. Always be honest about what you did. Tell people who buy a snake from you what is in it. So you have to keep clear records.

2. Only do this with species that are close related (as I think guttata and californiae are).

3. Make sure those hybrids cannot mix with snakes in free nature. (That is not a problem in Holland, but maybe in the US).


Hybrids between guttata and californiae are known from the wild, I am told.
Hybridisation (spelled ok? ) can be the start of a complete new species (in million years).
Darwin would have loved it (he told me).

But... you don't have to like the above shown snake (which now is very depressed ).

The snake can't help it that it was born.

 

[Seamus Haley]

1. Always be honest about what you did. Tell people who buy a snake from you what is in it. So you have to keep clear records.

There exists an uncertainty about what the animal will be represented as after it passes out of your hands... or the hands of the one who obtains it next... or it's offspring. genetic contamination of the entire species only takes ONE person being less than honest.

2. Only do this with species that are close related (as I think guttata and californiae are).

They are not even in the same genus.

Hybrids between guttata and californiae are known from the wild, I am told

The ranges don't even overlap. Not even close.

Interfertility in captivity isn't a legitimate indicator of natural production of hybrids, there exist intrinsic isolating mechanisms in the snake's behavioral patterns and instinctive mate choices which prevent them, in addition to physical problems.

If animals were crossing in the wild, then the taxonomy would need to be revised in such a way so that the two current species both became subspecific designations of the same species.

Hybridisation (spelled ok? ) can be the start of a complete new species (in million years

A single species may split into a number of subspecies that have reccognized differences which may then further adapt and cease to interbreed... leaving two species where there existed only one before. The reverse is not true.

The snake can't help it that it was born.

No, but it's owner can. Euthanize it as a precautionary measure to ensure the safety of the larger gene pool.

 

[alphonzo]

There exists an uncertainty about what the animal will be represented as after it passes out of your hands... or the hands of the one who obtains it next... or it's offspring. genetic contamination of the entire species only takes ONE person being less than honest.

That is the case with every animal that is bred in captivity. Boa constrictor and its subspecies is a good example. Most of these boa's are crossed subspecies. This has not harmed the wild populations.

And you assume I will breed with this snake. That is not the case.

They are not even in the same genus.

That is something which is not important. Genera are made up by humans. Look how often these generic or species names are changed.
My guess is that extensive dna-research will show that they are very closely related.

The ranges don't even overlap. Not even close.

I agree. But I was talking about escaped specimen from both species.

Interfertility in captivity isn't a legitimate indicator of natural production of hybrids, there exist intrinsic isolating mechanisms in the snake's behavioral patterns and instinctive mate choices which prevent them, in addition to physical problems.

Where do you base this on? When two species interbreed and their young are fertile (I know they are at least for five generations), they must be very closely related.

If animals were crossing in the wild, then the taxonomy would need to be revised in such a way so that the two current species both became subspecific designations of the same species.

This is only a matter of time, I guess. Look at the recent change in generic namegiving in American Elaphes. This will never stop.
As I said... it's the work of human.

A single species may split into a number of subspecies that have reccognized differences which may then further adapt and cease to interbreed... leaving two species where there existed only one before. The reverse is not true.

I don't agree with this. This would mean that evrything in the wild goes as if it is planned. There is chaos out there. I agree with your opinion above about splitting up in subspecies and becoming species.
But this does not rule out oyher possibilities. There is no proof for this, as far as I know.

No, but it's owner can. Euthanize it as a precautionary measure to ensure the safety of the larger gene pool.

This is rubbish. One should NEVER kill a healthy animal for no good reason. And being an interbred specimen IS NOT A GOOD REASON.
The Germans wanted to do something like this (ensure the safety of the larger gene pool) sixty years ago.
Blond and blue eyes... remember?

Friendly greetings from the Netherlands

 

[alphonzo]

Another pic of the beauty

 

[Darin Chappell]

Fons,

You may agree or disagree with Seamus' stance as you see fit, of course. However, putting the euthanization of intergrades and hybrids on the same moral level as Hittler's attempt at exterminating an entire race of PEOPLE is way beyond good taste and common sense! Surely, upon more cool-headed reflection, you don't see these two instances as moral equivalents, do you?

 

[alphonzo]

Fons,

You may agree or disagree with Seamus' stance as you see fit, of course. However, putting the euthanization of intergrades and hybrids on the same moral level as Hittler's attempt at exterminating an entire race of PEOPLE is way beyond good taste and common sense! Surely, upon more cool-headed reflection, you don't see these two instances as moral equivalents, do you?

OK, I admit that I over-acted.

I apologize for that.

But... the fundamental idea has points of contact.
Eventhough they are two entire different things!
You do not kill something because you think it is wrong! That's the point I wanted to make.

 

[Hellfire2010]

...

I do not agree with sentencing a healthy animal to death purely because of it's parentage, but I feel that comparing other posters to Hitler is not only horribly rude, but disrespectful to those who died in WW2. Apology accepted.

I hate to be devils advocate here, but I think this is an important point:
A species is defined as a group of organisms that can breed to produce fertile offspring.

So killing the hybrids would do nothing for the gene pool, since such hybrids cannot reproduce anyway. They would be the serpent equivalent of mules, harmless but possibly okay pets as long as they were healthy snakes.

Hellfire

 

[Seamus Haley]

A species is defined as a population of organisms that NATURALLY interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

Interspecies fertility in captivity is not an indicator of conspecification. The whole Liger thing is the best and easiest example to understand... Asiatic Lions had ranges overlapping with indian tigers until such a point as they were largely exterminated- lions and tigers have proven to be interfertile in captivity but never ONCE was a liger found in the wild. Intrinsic isolating mechanisms are present which kept the populations seperate. These can be retarded or circumvented in captivity to produce those abominations against nature like the one pictured above.

Euthenasia is a seperate debate but when an animal represents a signifigant danger to a larger population, it should be quickly and humanely put down. Period.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Oh and uh... to the best of my current knowledge, every hybridized combination of snakes that has been tried has proven to be fertile with other crosses, back to both parents species and a few even to completely seperate species. The "naturally" is an important part of the definition of a species- there has NEVER been a wild corn x cal king found, no matter what the original poster seemed to think about released specimins (he pulled it out of someplace warm and dark... I suspect it's where he keeps his head so his ears don't get cold, two guesses as to where it is).

 

[GeckoTracks]

I had a feeling someone was going to bring up the liger/tigon crossings, well though you’re correct in the low percentage of finding the crossing out in the wild (or any animal crossing for that matter). You are incorrect about all hybrids being sterile. For your example Ligers and Tigons some the females are only found to be fertile, a male out of the crossings have yet to be found fertile. That being said I think everyone should notice that’s probably natures way of trying to stamp out hybrids, making sure they don’t prosper.

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/ligers2.html
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/tigons.html
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/hybridisation.html
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/hybridisation2.html

I do agree any animal shouldn’t cross-breed in captivity, well unless it’s to save a species, BUT even then it would never have the same genetics of the original animals, if anything cloning would be better. And all that is another touchy subject.

Though some hybrids are in fact beautiful, it’s really not what nature intended. If animals do not cross-breed in the wild. Why cross-breed them in captivity? Animals are a lot smarter than what some people give them credit for, they know better than to interbreed.

“In nature, individual species rarely, if ever, hybridize, and there is a reason. I think it has something to do with a thing called natural selection.”
“We simply do not have the right to arbitrarily and whimsically "create" hybrids. What God has ordained, let no man put asunder.”

Quotes both taken from here http://www.lostmymarblz.com/fl-breeding-crossbrd.htm#Hybrids
Both well put.

I personally do not feel any animal even if it is brought into this world as a hybrid, should be put down/euthanized for any reason other than to take its suffering away.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Kimberly, try reading and comprehending...

Someone *else* said all hybrids were sterile. I said it was a myth. I brought up the tiger-lion hybrids and there were NEVER ANY found in the wild. Not a single one.

There's these great user names posted up to the left of each post that let you know who said what so that you don't end up trying to address points made by two different people in one horribly jumbled post of your own.

 

[GeckoTracks]

try reading and comprehending

Why don’t you take your own advise and bite your tongue, not once did I quote you till now. I can help it if you’re a stingy old man, who jumps the gun on anyone’s post you disagree about. Furthermore I was agreeing with you on your aggressively harsh post about why people shouldn’t inbreed. It’s not my fault you look beyond someone trying to back your rear. But I’m guessing you don’t need help in such cause you feel you have many years of experience.

I brought up the tiger-lion hybrids and there were NEVER ANY found in the wild. Not a single one.

I also agreed with you about never finding a single hybrid in the wild. I guess you missed that too. This whole post is now directed to you, I hope you can see that.

There's these great user names posted up to the left of each post that let you know who said what so that you don't end up trying to address points made by two different people in one horribly jumbled post of your own.

I can clearly see that, no reason to get snippy about it. Also I thought I could address both points bought up in this thread without having to quote anyone on it, but I suppose you feel the need to get on anyone’s butt if you feel anything at all is directed towards you. Next time SEAMUS I’ll post your name so you don’t get confused to whom I’m talking to.

I’m not ticked but I don’t think you should be so harsh with half of the post you make. I followed many of your post a feel you have good points, that’s why I wanted to back you up on the morals on breeding hybrids, but alas I was sadly mistaken to back up someone that’s so unappreciative.

 

[KelliH]

It's not even a very pretty snake. I find most of the hybrids to be rather ugly. And I was LMFAO when I saw a post on the kingsnake python classifieds where someone had an angolan/ball python cross available. Guess how much they wanted. $12,500! For a hybrid!

 

[keego73]

First off, in agreement to Kelli, I don't think it's a pretty snake at all. Regardless of hybrid/non-hybrid status, it simply ranks well below my standard of being an "average" looking colubrid, let alone "pretty." Secondly, GeckoTracks, there's no one else besides Seamus that you could have been paraphrasing. Either you were paraphrasing from him, you are in a world entirely of your own, or you have an extremely huge problem with the logic of any communication. I for one am guessing that you simply didn't like being attacked and tried to back out of your stance and look vindicated.
Captive hybrids, no matter what you like to use as moral justification, have no logical backing by anything you can find about definitions of wild species. If something doesn't happen regularly in the wild, don't pretend that it's ok in captivity simply because it can happen. Whether something can or can't happen in the wild or captivity makes no difference to me. But, if you want to use it as an arguement, make sure it has some rhyme or reason behind it. If you want to make weird hybrids, stick up for yourself by saying you like weird hybrids. There's nothing natural about it. It's just luck that they happen to breed when brought together by completely unnatural methods. If you're trying to get something new and exciting, good for you. Don't bother the rest of us with pictures. If you are into hybrids for the looks, don't show us mediocre animals with titles such as "Isn't it a beauty?," and especially not with the word "isn't" mispelled. After you post pictures of your prized hybrids, expect to be criticized regardless of your plans for the animal. Don't get into a battle over it, unless your entire point for posting was a flame war. I hope that's never the case. If it is, you should probably go back to first grade and start tripping kids to save us all time. Please, no more needless attention grabbing. No more pushing issue. If you want to talk about highly controversal issues, I'd like to ask that you do so for a purpose of moving forward, and not for attention or bickering. I'm sick of the fighting, no one will win. As a branch off of the "Hitler" comment earlier, we can look at it as an example that a world war wasn't able to make a clear stance, and we still daily see massive sub-cultures that are 100% for the extermination of practically every group outside of themselves. Let's try to cut all the fighting back, and make some more of it into informed debates. Let's try to cut out the "hot heads" and get back to work and study of the animals we all love. Whether pure bred or purely human induced hybrids, let's quit making animals into hobbies for our entertainment and viewing pleasure, and treat them with the respect they deserve. Sorry for the long post that slightly got lost from the original point.

 

[DragonCharm]

Nice looking snake........BUT......not a big fan of creating new hybrids.

 

[coyote]

This is the Genetics, Taxonomy and HYBRIDIZATION forum isn't it? This would be the proper place to make a post about a hybrid wouldn't it? Beauty is a subjective thing that can't be quantified. Why can't someone consider this snake, any snake to be beautiful? Can a science based ideology prescribe aesthetics?

Thank you.
MFZeier

 

[Dudeamis]

Or just keep the thing to itself no need to murder it