I've got to ask.....

[Griz]

I am sitting here wasting a few minutes reading this forum while scarfing my lunch down. As I read through some of the threads I am finding it hard to eat as my jaw keeps hitting the ground.

So, my question is this. Why do you keep hots? Is for the thrill of keeping something this dangerous? Is it simply for their looks? What attracted you to them?

I keep various boa's because I truly do enjoy holding them, showing them to various groups etc. They are pets as well as a nice way of making some extra income.

I just cannot see myself ever keeping a hot. Just the sheer thought of being tagged by one is enough of a deterent for me to never own one. So, I thought I would ask what attracted you to keeping them? Just curious how other minds work.

Griz

 

[hhmoore]

While you may very well be genuine in your interest, Bob, that question is akin to people that don't get it asking why you keep boas. Nothing said in explanation will really make sense to the inquiring parties. At best, the answer is accepted at face value and the subject is dropped (how often does that happen?). More often, the questioning persists and the result is frustrating...and leads (to some degree) to a loss of respect on at least one side.

 

[Griz]

Not the type of response I thought I would read. I am looking for what one's motivation would be to keep a potentially lethal animal as part of your collection. Is it the cool factor? Is it the I simply love to look at them? It was not intended to start a debate. I have adequately explained my love for boa's countless times without anyone walking away rolling there eyes.

Griz

 

[starwarsdad]

I do not think I would ever keep hot snakes.

I do plan to work with Gilas in the next several years. I am waiting until my children are out of the house though. It will probably be 18 - 20 years down the road. I have always been fascinated by them and drawn to them for some reason.

 

[Clay Davenport]

If I may be permitted to use a cliche Bob, if we have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.
Just as Harald said, if you cannot fathom why anyone would keep hots, then no explanation will be adequate.
For me, there is no cool factor, I don't broadcast the fact I keep hots. In fact, when a non herper asks if I keep anything venomous (usually the first or second question someone asks), I usually just lie and say no. It's none of their business, and I prefer people did not know I keep hots unless they share the interest.
People can and do hold the same level of love and fascination for hots that you hold for boas. If you can look at it from that perspective, then you might understand it, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

brings up another question

Do very many HOTS keepers milk their specimens for venom used for AV or for various venom studies? It would seem to be the most simple way to acquire this and negates the need for field collection. I too have a fascination with venomous species and have considered getting some proper training and upgrading to have a room fit for keeping them but have always stopped short. Total respect for those that keep them, safely, and no questions about what led to the decision from me. I only question when repeated envenomations happen. Like boids and colubrids, it's not a question of will you get bitten, but when and how often. Those people that keep them with out getting tagged, especially for years and years, are truly top-notch handlers in my book.

 

[hhmoore]

PM sent, to avoid sidetracking Bob's thread...in addition (sorry, I forgot to mention in the message), there is another thread here dealing with that very subject. Use the search function - if you are unable to locate it, shoot me a PM

 

[Griz]

If I may be permitted to use a cliche Bob, if we have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.

As much as I don't buy into that statement I reckon I will chalk this up to the brotherhood of venomous keepers. If asking a simple question like this is against the unwritten code then I apologize. I did not realize that venomous keepers did not have the ability/desire to put in writing their reasonings behind keeping them. A simple, "they have always fascinated me therefore I want to keep them" would have been sufficient and I would have understood. I have simply been real curious as to the benefits vs risk aspect of them and what makes the keepers tick when it comes to these animals.

I saw a Bushmaster at Tinley Park in 2005 and I have to admit, it was probably the most beautiful animal I have laid my eyes on. Would I ever keep one? Not in a million years but I will promise that any time I get the chance to look at one I will.

Griz

 

[shrap]

Bob,

First let me say that I have no desire to keep venomous (or frogs or water turtles or countless other species of reptile). The risk and responsibility is something that I personally do not wish to take on. But that is something that each of us have to decide for ourselves.

But I certainly find them to be amazing critters and understand peoples fascination and desire to keep them. It is really no different than any other persons reasons for keeping whatever species they do. The love of the species and enjoying getting to learn from and understand the animal on a level that you cant unless you keep them first hand.

And I do not think that "brotherhood" statement was fair. I know first hand and I am sure you do to, the amount of people who view keeping snakes of any kind as some kind of taboo. It gets tiring and frustrating trying to explain anything to them because they will never understand what you are telling them. It makes you not want to explain anything to anyone anymore.

It is only 100 times worse for hot keepers. They dont only get it just from the "snakes in general are taboo" people, they also get it from a fair percentage of herp keepers. So I understand what Clay and Harald were saying, it was not meant as an insult to you, but more a reflection of the frustration they have felt over the years. So dont take it the wrong way.

 

[Clay Davenport]

A simple, "they have always fascinated me therefore I want to keep them" would have been sufficient and I would have understood.
Griz

No, you wouldn't have understood. You would have accepted the answer as being as good of one as you would likely recieve, but it would not have brought understanding as to why someone keeps a venomous snake.
The reason is it is an inadequate answer that doesn't actually explain anything.

Let me put this another way. I haven't the least amount of interest in keeping a mamba. I am a venomous keeper, and I still can find no reasonable justification for a private individual to keep something that dangerous. I have asked a mamba keeper, while viewing his specimen, why he wanted to keep one and he replied with basically the same answer. I couldn't see that as an adequate reason any more that a non-venomous keeper can see it as applied to hots as a whole.
That being said, I do not attempt to argue the point with someone who keeps mambas, I simply accept it as their choice to make, and that I will never understand it completely.

There is no secret code of the venomous brotherhood where this question is taboo, and I didn't mean to make you feel put off for asking. It's just that for someone who doesn't keep them, and has no desire to in the future, no reason is adequate for someone like me to keep something venomous. I don't milk them, I don't handle them. I just enjoy keeping them. Hearing the buzz when I walk into the room is fun too.

It's like me asking why anyone would want to keep an 20 foot retic. No reason they give justifies it to me, being a person with zero interest in keeping something that big. For that matter I can't understand why anyone would want a pet hamster. It's just a matter of personal preferance.

 

[hhmoore]

As much as I don't buy into that statement I reckon I will chalk this up to the brotherhood of venomous keepers. If asking a simple question like this is against the unwritten code then I apologize. I did not realize that venomous keepers did not have the ability/desire to put in writing their reasonings behind keeping them. Griz

And that comment, so typical of you, is both just what I expected to come at some point AND the reason I wouldn't bother to try to explain it to you, (the descriptor, , is implied and intended here, just for the record)

You remember my statement about how such questions so typically end with a loss of some degree of respect from at least one side? Consider yourself down a few more notches in my book, Bob.

 

[kmurphy]

I think someone could just as easily ask why anyone would keep a 16 ft or more burm. They certainly aren't the most beautiful snake(IMO) and you really shouldn't handle them by yourself.
Actually keeping a hot snake makes more sense to me than keeping the above. A Gabon Viper has to be the nicest looking snake in existence so I could easily understand why someone would keep them.
I don't know what you expected Griz. No-ones going to say because of the shock value, even if it were true. So the standard answer is always going to be because they find them fascinating or something along that line.

 

[BoaMan Jon]

What a nice thing to say, Harold... You're top notch

 

[Otter_23]

I have always been extremely fascinated with venomous and would love to have some some day, but it won't happen mainly because my luck would put me in the hospital. Same reason I would love to learn to fly but I know if I did something would happen on my solo so I don't . It is also the risk reward deal. To much of a risk for me personally to out balance the reward but I will continue to read on them and view them when ever I get the chance and have a great deal of respect for those that enjoy the keeping them.

 

[varnyard]

Have I kept hots? You bet ya. However I do not keep them any longer. I did enjoy keeping them, some of them are just awesome. EDBs (Eastern Diamondbacks) Are one of my favorites. I also like the awesome mangrove snakes. There are others that I find quite nice looking (most vipers), as well as easy to keep and fun to watch. I also like and have kept a good many large constrictors as well, I do not have any now. The same could be said about adult Nile monitors. All of these animals can be harmful to humans. But IMO, your are more likely to die behind the wheel of your car than by the hots you keep, or any of these others. Should we get rid of our car because it might kill us?

I do not keep these animals any longer, but I will not tell others it is wrong if they do. I will say that they are not for the budding herper.

The only reason I do not keep them now is because I have a young child. I would not keep anything here that could be harmful to him. One day when he is grown, I might again keep these awesome animals.

 

[Griz]

And that comment, so typical of you, is both just what I expected to come at some point AND the reason I wouldn't bother to try to explain it to you, (the descriptor, , is implied and intended here, just for the record)

You remember my statement about how such questions so typically end with a loss of some degree of respect from at least one side? Consider yourself down a few more notches in my book, Bob.

Well Darn Harald, I reckon the feelings mutual. You turned this into something it was not intended to be. You set the foundation based your comments regarding respect.

My inquiry was as sincere as it gets. If someone asks me, and they have countless times, why I keep reptiles my replies are very easy to put into words:

1) They are beautiful creatures
2) They are fascinating to watch their behaviors
3) They are actually enjoyable to hold
4) They are unique
5) They help me make a nice side income
6) They help me accomplish one of my goals to educate outsiders
etc etc etc

That's all I was looking for Harald. My comments about "the brotherhood" was not meant to be looked upon in a negative light. I simply meant it as the "brotherhood of those who keep hots" and NOT used in the same fashion as it often used on the BOI. It was not a slight Harald as much as you evidently want to make it.

However, I did take the brush off as a slight. As if I am not capable of understanding and/or accepting the reasons behind keeping hots. Understanding and accepting are two seperate things. It would have been nice to hear someone state I keep hots because....... and not received the whole "if you have to ask then you won't understand." I am still puzzled, although accepting of the fact, that this is evidently a touchy subject and one in which I won't receive any sort of answer to. I NEVER, not even for a second, meant to offend anyone by asking. After all, why would I? Why would I mean to offend a group of people over something as simple as asking why you enjoy a particular animal? I support your rights to keep hots afterall, I would never be able to view them if collectors did not keep them.

Griz

 

[Griz]

No, you wouldn't have understood. You would have accepted the answer as being as good of one as you would likely recieve, but it would not have brought understanding as to why someone keeps a venomous snake.
The reason is it is an inadequate answer that doesn't actually explain anything.

Let me put this another way. I haven't the least amount of interest in keeping a mamba. I am a venomous keeper, and I still can find no reasonable justification for a private individual to keep something that dangerous. I have asked a mamba keeper, while viewing his specimen, why he wanted to keep one and he replied with basically the same answer. I couldn't see that as an adequate reason any more that a non-venomous keeper can see it as applied to hots as a whole.
That being said, I do not attempt to argue the point with someone who keeps mambas, I simply accept it as their choice to make, and that I will never understand it completely.

There is no secret code of the venomous brotherhood where this question is taboo, and I didn't mean to make you feel put off for asking. It's just that for someone who doesn't keep them, and has no desire to in the future, no reason is adequate for someone like me to keep something venomous. I don't milk them, I don't handle them. I just enjoy keeping them. Hearing the buzz when I walk into the room is fun too.

It's like me asking why anyone would want to keep an 20 foot retic. No reason they give justifies it to me, being a person with zero interest in keeping something that big. For that matter I can't understand why anyone would want a pet hamster. It's just a matter of personal preferance.

And Clay, that is certainly a better answer then what was originally received. There was not sinister plot here on my part. It is a natural fascination that I have as to what makes people take certain risks. Is the enjoyment they receive worth the risk and if so, why? I am truly fascinated by it.

I accept, wholeheartedly, that you and whomever else enjoy these animals. What I was puzzled about is how that enjoyment supercedes the risks involved. I think anyone would find that very fascinating to say the least.

They are beautiful animals and I would even put that Bushmaster ahead of any boa that I have seen. Is that worth the risk to me of owning one? Nope, but certainly if it is a logical reason for John Doe then that's fine by me and something in which I would have accepted. It's simply a product of an inquisitive mind that enjoys working through the rationale of other people's behaviors.

Griz

 

[hhmoore]

You turned this into something it was not intended to be. You set the foundation based your comments regarding respect.

Bob, I acknowledged from the start that your interest might be genuine...although I did, and to a degree still do, doubt your inclination to let a simple response suffice. You seem to be under the impression that I took offense early on, and that is simply not true...though by your second post, I was pretty sure I would be offended before it was complete. You opened the thread (in effect) asking if hot keepers were adrenaline junkies. That one is pretty easy to shrug off, as I have heard it at least a hundred times. When you commented (in your next post) on your ability to explain your love for boas, I made a bet that you would comment on the inability of others to adequately explain why they keep hots. It was just too you not to happen, and you didn't disappoint me. In case it wasn't obvious, I took offense when you tossed in your barb about our inability to express ourselves...and that was the moment my respect for you dropped yet again. If you had managed NOT to go that route, I actually would have gained a bit for you - because I was so sure you were going to take it there.
As for WHY I didn't just respond with the type of answer I knew you wanted from the start - there are a couple of reasons. First, and as previously stated, I figured that it wouldn't be that simple. Maybe you would have, as you have suggested, just read the answer and accepted it. Unfortunately, once one embarks down that path, it is difficult to leave it gracefully. If you, or somebody jumping in, chose to pursue the questioning, I was left trying to defend my interest against people that just didn't get it, or more accurately, didn't want to get it. As Sammy stated, it's a whole other subject when the conversation turns from boas to hots. Maybe it just boils down to the difference in the type of people with whom we have each had those conversations. Try discussing keeping venomous with Average Joe Ophidiophobe, or - more fun still - the populace saving lawmakers he elected, that have decided that venomous reptiles present a manifest danger to the community at large.


In light of what this has become, Bob, I do have one question for you:
When you referenced the "cool factor" as a possible reason for keeping hots, did you mean that we think the animals are cool? or that we think keeping them makes us cool? This is not a trick question.
...it's just that I have felt my coolness slipping away just a bit over the past few months. If bringing hots back into the house again will help, I'll give it a shot

Edit - my reason for questioning your inclination to take a response at face value and not pursue it is that you seemed, and still seem, to be looking for some kind of justification...the WHYs. Why is it worth the risk? Why not settle for something less dangerous? Why do we want something we can't hold?

 

[Griz]

Harald, and don't take this wrong as you have on my other unintended posts, but you need to reread the original and subsequent posts. It's blatantly obvious that the glasses in which you wear are colored in such a manner that you viewed the intent of my posts incorrectly.

My original post asked "Why do you keep hots? Is for the thrill of keeping something this dangerous? Is it simply for their looks? What attracted you to them?"

I posed multiple possible scenarios as a basis in which to encourage response. I am coming from the viewpoint of a casual observer who does not understand much of anything about venomous. Literally, I was eating lunch when I read about an envemonation and it amazed me. I then started asking myself what it would take to get me to keep an animal that was considered dangerous. I simply could not comprehend a scenario, in my mind, where I, not you or anyone else, would enjoy such an animal.

Your "acknowledgment" of my sincerity was obviously done in a very skeptical fashion given your notion that any response by me would lessen your respect for me. You spoke out of both sides of your mouth and the slight was obvious. Why you wanted to respond in such a manner is missed by me especially when you could have simply walked away. You came into this looking for a fight and a fight you won't find, at least not on such a trivial matter.

With regards to the perceived notion that I insinuated that you had an inability to quantify, in writing, your reasonings for keeping hots, you evidently missed the /desire part. Some people simply cannot put into writing why they believe certain things. Others simply have no desire to quantify those feelings. Both of which I can respect but to put the onus on me and my inability to understand was taken as a slight. You were not born with a desire to keep hots. Something took place, you were exposed if you will, to something that led you down that road. That's what took place with me and I can tell the story as if it just happened yesterday.

Harald, I realize that keeping Hots is controversial at best. I understand that you guys are under close scrutiny for your hobby. I was not trying to add controversy to the issue. I was trying to better understand it. I would think that you, of all people, would want to educate people about keeping hots and why it goes beyond just an adrenaline issue. If I kept hots, I would want to educate individuals about why I love it, about why responsible herping is necessary and all of the various other reasons why you love what you do. Instead, you chose to assume the defense posture and not take advantage of an opportunity.

Ask yourself this Harald, is the keeping of hots helped or harmed by your response here? You could have been exuberant over the hobby and allowed that exuberance to become contagious. You could have used it as an opportunity instead you used it in a manner that accomplished nothing positive. We undergo so much scrutiny and we have to seize opportunities when they arise. Here you had a fellow herper, who shared your love for this hobby, and when an inquiry was made you responded in a rather unprofessional manner. I've not attacked you. I've not attacked your hobby or your rationale. You have mine. Maybe it is I who should think less of you?

Griz

PS The "cool factor" pertained to the animals. How can you not look at a Bushmaster and not see the cool factor in that? Amazing animals but I digress.....

 

[hhmoore]

Your "acknowledgment" of my sincerity was obviously done in a very skeptical fashion given your notion that any response by me would lessen your respect for me. You spoke out of both sides of your mouth and the slight was obvious. Why you wanted to respond in such a manner is missed by me especially when you could have simply walked away. You came into this looking for a fight and a fight you won't find, at least not on such a trivial matter.

If you read that post, my comment about lessening respect clearly (IMO, anyway) refers to the result of one not accepting the responses at face value & trying to delve deeper and deeper...continuing the questioning because they "just don't get it". It had nothing to do with you, or my level of respect for you, at that point. I wasn't looking for a fight, just trying to draw a parallel to a type of conversation I figured you had experienced...apparently, though, you haven't tried to have that type of conversation with someone that was just too closed minded to accept your answers. I wish I could say the same. There was no speaking out both sides of my mouth; and, frankly, my conscience is as clear about what I said in that post as yours is about your intentions in this thread.

With regards to the perceived notion that I insinuated that you had an inability to quantify, in writing, your reasonings for keeping hots

What perceived notion?? You said

I did not realize that venomous keepers did not have the ability/desire to put in writing their reasonings

(and yes, I saw the /desire the first time). There was no perception required, it was right there in black & white. Not really any insinuation either, the words rang pretty clearly.

I would think that you, of all people, would want to educate people about keeping hots and why it goes beyond just an adrenaline issue. If I kept hots, I would want to educate individuals about why I love it, about why responsible herping is necessary and all of the various other reasons why you love what you do. Instead, you chose to assume the defense posture and not take advantage of an opportunity.

And you would be correct. I did a considerable amount of education when I was keeping hots - in fact, that was the basis for my permit, once one was required. But that goes well beyond elucidating why I keep them. The reasons I would have offered toward that end would have been very simple...simple enough that, in my words "Nothing said in explanation will really make sense to the inquiring parties." My aim was not to offend YOU with the statement in quotes, it was simply a statement of fact. If you can understand the beauty, and the presence, of a venomous snake, then you really don't need to ask WHY we keep them. If your struggle is to understand that WHY, to get to the justification (and it seems from your reply to Clay as if that may be the case), then all I can do is shrug and refer to my previous comment. If you, as one that shares this hobby, don't understand WHY, that understanding is very unlikely to come from my words (or anyone else's).
For the record, I thought long and hard before taking a defensive stance (my second post) - well, actually, I only thought long and hard before posting it - almost didn't do it, in fact, because I censor myself pretty well, as a rule. I chose to do so, knowing and accepting that some might think less of me because of it.