leopard gecko registry

[MorphTiles]

as some of you may have seen in another thread (the jungle thread)

It has been leaked that I am working on a registry system for leopard geckos.



I would like input on the following genetics background

what are or should be the guldlines to describe the following
genotypes
what genotypes can be heterozygous
linebred traits
anything else I may not have thought of because I just woke up

these should be emailed to me [email protected]

feel free to discuss the registry here

once I get a decent amount of answers I will post on here to help with traits that have multiple people answering differently on

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

i don't really have anything to contribute at this time, it being my first year breeding, and I would imagine you are looking for first hand results and experiences. BUT, I will say I look VERY forward to seeing the fruition of your work here! Should prove interesting and helpful

 

[MorphTiles]

what I want is a real and set defined guidlines for future breeders to know what is a jungle, or carrot tail or any other traits

as well as good descriptions of the three albinos

what makes a hypo or super hypo

all of these need good descriptions which I have my own but I am not claiming in anyway to know these to the extent that some people on here know them as my main projects are in the Las Vegas and patternless areas I didnt need to venture into some of the other traits

 

[A_Kendergirl]

This seems like it will be a very difficult task. The are only a handful of recessive and co-dom traits...but so many can be combined to make a different looking morph. Then enter the linebreed traits, and it can get even more muddled.

Defining what makes a recessive or co-dom trait should be pretty easy (other than separating the 3 albinos)...most are pretty straight forward. But there are some traits we aren't sure of....such as jungles and hypos. Some lines seem co-dom, and others seem line-breed.

I think the linebreed traits will be the hardest to define.

Some aren't too bad - such as carrot tail (a certain percent - maybe 10% or more - of orange starting at the base of the tail unbroken by black spotting). The difficulty with that is with geckos like Mirage. Most people would say Mirage has a carrot tail. Yet he has two small black spots in the middle of the carrot. Does that mean he's not a carrot tail? (see picture) And how do you determine the % of carrot tail? I would stop where the black spotting starts, but many stop at the very last visible speck of orange...thus what I would call a 30% carrottail, others would call it an 80%.

I guess my whole point in this rambling is that this will be a VERY daunting task.

 

[MorphTiles]

the muddled confusion is what I am trying to alleviate with this. If we can work together and get the larger breeders to agree I think it will catch on

and as new traits come out we will fight it out to get to the bottom of them and add them into the registry when it is time

 

[Gekkonida]

Scott, I applaud the ideal. That being said there are just too many morphs right now without clear cut genetics behind them. I think some of these questions will be answered this season, but it may take many years for some of these traits to be worked out. To me that is one of the exciting things about leopards right now. No one knows on some of this stuff (until we prove it out). But there are a number of morphs that can be identified and that would be a good place to start. You might want to make it a running registry

 

[MorphTiles]

well the plan would be for the clear and defined ones to be set in stone and the non clear defined would have some sort of thing maybe a ? with a link explaining it is a new trait and not proven for genetics and the such

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I already purchased www.leopardgeckoregistry.com and will be happy to work with you in this venture. It would be a long process and will take months to develop until it would be presented to the general public.

The new Cornsnake registry is up and running strong (http://cornguide.com/ACR/home.php). Cornsnakes have the majority of recessive morphs, so it's a tad bit easier to run that registry. But their are line bred mutations as well (Okeetee, Sunglow, etc.). Their currently is no standards associated with these line bred mutations as far as the ACR is concerned. Their are standards of course, but I do not think the ACR is inforcing them. Part of the way to regulate the line bred mutations is by provideing photos of the parents...Common sense will tell an individual that if their parents are Sunglows, the hatchlings will more then likely be Sunglows. Another way to help with that problem is by providing a page that shows all the morphs with "ideal" specimens with a description (how it was produced and that it is line bred). All of this would help a purchaser judge for themselves the quality of the particular specimen.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I wanted to add too, that it would be wise to start with the simple recessive mutations and then slowely add in line bred variations as the registry progresses.

 

[MorphTiles]

OK,

I have added a page starting to lay out the traits and genetics at http://www.reptileregistry.com/ I will be making each a link to a description and picture in time to explain, please email me desriptions pictures of true traits and traits I have missed or misplaced

I am working on how to do carrot tail at this point

 

[aliceinwl]

I don't think that jungle and stripe should be in the line bred category.

Many stripe lines act like a simple recessive. Stripes and jungles have quite a bit of overlap in terms of pattern and I'm not sure how the two traits behave in relation to each other. I think that Marcia is working with a line of stripes that behaves like a recessive trait. I'm not sure if she's crossed her stripes and jungles, but if she has, she may be able to answer this.

Jungles, I'm not so sure of. The accepted definition of a jungle is a leo with both aberrent tail and body bands. But, some leos from jungle to jungle breedings can appear quite normal with sometimes just a few slightly wavy body bands etc. Although these would be strictly considered normal they can still produce jungle offspring, I think of them as cryptic jungles. I've had jungle offspring from jungle to normal breedings, but this has always happened with the leos I've acquired since jungles became widely available. Therefore, I can't say for certain if the jungle trait is behaving as some kind of incomplete dominant trait, the normal parent is actually a normal looking jungle, or the normal parent is a jungle het. I believe that Gregg M was producing babies from a wc to jungle breeding. He'd probably be the one to contact on this. In any case, I don't think that it's a selectively bred trait. Jungle has traditionally been considered a recessive trait.

The boldness of the patterns on jungles and stripes, however, is selectively bred. So a bold stripe would be a combination of a recessive trait (stripe) and a selectively bred trait (bold pattern). I think that red stripe would be another such combination, but I don't personally work with these.

-Alice

 

[aliceinwl]

Hypo should also probably be broken up. The original hypos were strictly line-bred. The Hines line hypo, however behaves more like a dominant or co-dominant trait. You can breed a Hines line hypo to a normal and produce hypos. Rhac had a very good thread on them: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71571

Kelly at HISS is working with Nieves line hypos which I believe are selectively bred. This is the only line of hypo I know of that doesn't incorporate any Hines genes. As soon as the Hines line hypo appeared on the scene everyone seemed to cross it inot their original line bred hypo lines. As a result virtually all the hypos I've seen marketed in recent years seem to incorporate it to some degree.

-Alice

 

[MorphTiles]

I will break up the hypos!

I am not sure on the stripe and jungles I would like more info as everything I know says it is selective line breeding. I would love to get myself a recessive jungle that is proven recessive!

 

[Serpwidgets]

IMO the best way to handle the definitions of selectively-bred morphs is to put a checkbox and let the owner of that individual decide. This allows the general public of hobbyists to create the standard. The alternative is that you (the registry operator) are arbitrarily deciding how to define someone else's specimen, and there's really no good that can come from that. (You will not make a single friend, but you'd make plenty of enemies that way.)

Sure, there will be people who check the box for "some line-bred morph" when theirs doesn't really qualify, but if there are pictures included with each record, and each record carries with it a "submitted by" person's name, then the records will be subject to peer review. (In effect, BS'ing your morphs will only advertise to everyone that your stock and/or standards are sub-par.) The standard will be created and enforced by the people who buy/sell/breed the morph in question, as it should be.

For the unknown/unproven traits, IMO it should be as flexible as possible, keeping future compatibility in mind. For example, with corns there are charcoals and anerys (both simple-recessive) and sometimes an individual cannot be visually ID'ed. What we did with the ACR was allow phenotype checkboxes for Anery, Charcoal, and also "Unknown Anery" to cover all bases. Additionally, you can put a text field to allow the owner to describe something that doesn't fit any of the current checkboxes.

If it's later proven out that there is a gene behind a particular morph, it will be easier for those individuals to be updated with actual genotypes.

For proven genes, they should be sorted by locus and allow people to choose one of the possible genotypes for each locus. For example, you would have the AlbinoBell, AlbinoTremper, AlbinoVegas, Patternless, Giant (and other) loci. Given the number of alleles at a locus, there are an exact number of possible genotypes, and you can have people choose one of those.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think that Marcia is working with a line of stripes that behaves like a recessive trait. I'm not sure if she's crossed her stripes and jungles, but if she has, she may be able to answer this.

I have, and the results are still somewhat inconclusive. I feel that jungles are more like a line-bred and/or polygenic trait, and far as the stripes go I think I have another trait with some of my stripes that acts more like a co-dom.

 

[JBrune]

Stripe Question

So Marcia when you are working with your stripes are you working separately with the black markings (bold Stripe) vs the color markings (red or orange Stripe)? Either way I need to talk to you about my pairings next year to see if I can add some conclusions in this area as well.

Scott, keep up the good work with the registry and I think the people here have some awesome ideas.

Joyce

 

[A_Kendergirl]

With other registries, it is not the owner that decides if it fits the standard of the breed/morph.

I think it would be best to have an application process for registered geckos, where you can fill out what you feel your gecko should be defined as. Then, the application should be verified by at least 3 "judges". 2 out of 3 judges agreeing that the individual in question fits the requirements for a certain morph would allow it to officially be registered with that description.

If people can check the boxes of whatever they want, then there really is no point to the registry.

 

[MorphTiles]

I dont want the registerer to decide that is why I want to display a list of standards to define the traits and am already starting to post these and get input to narrow it and define them.

The point is to help get rid of the non jungle posted leos and non carrot tails listed as carrot etc etc ...

 

[Serpwidgets]

If people can check the boxes of whatever they want, then there really is no point to the registry.

I think that really depends on what is the goal for having a registry. But if every record has pictures that anyone can view online, then peer review will go a long way to ensuring that people won't BS their morph identifications. It becomes even more useful as it fills in and there are parents and offspring shown for a given specimen.

With other registries, it is not the owner that decides if it fits the standard of the breed/morph.

I don't know about the detailed workings of very many registries, but I don't believe this is true. The AKC does not tell people whether their Aussie is a merle or not. The breeder or the person registering the dog does that. With quarter horses, the person registering the horse describes it. Both of these registries issue papers without ever having seen the animal that is registered.

The point is to help get rid of the non jungle posted leos and non carrot tails listed as carrot etc etc ...

Just a few things to consider:

·If you, as an organization (whether it's an individual or a committee) decide which animal meets which criteria, you become wide open to lawsuits whenever anyone disagrees with you about what their animal is.

·Are you willing to place yourself in a position where you are telling everyone else (based on a photograph) including the biggest names in the hobby/industry whether or not their own stock is what they say it is? (With the ACR the simplest question was, "who is qualified to tell Kathy Love whether or not her Okeetees are 'really' Okeetees?")

·What happens when a breeder comes up with a new selectively-bred variation? Are you going to decide for everyone else when something is or is not "new?" (IMO this would be like Gene Siskel telling movie theaters what movies they are allowed to play. )

·On the other side of that coin, when you as a registry decide what animal qualifies as what morph, you become responsible for whether or not that animal ultimately qualifies as such. Then you are 100% responsible for the truthfulness and accuracy of the information in the registry. If buyerA purchases an animal from breederB, and the buyer disagrees with your description, they take you to court over it. (And/or rip you a new one on the BOI about it, LOL.)

Obviously it's completely your choice how you want to do things, but IMO the above should definitely be considered before making a decision to take on that much responsibility.