Inquiry MOC Reptiles

[Imrod]

*I meant thank you for bringing sanity btw.

 

[elena]

I didn't accuse you of being a scammer. I said that with no proof of death, you could be. I also went on to say that I didn't think that was the case, that I believed the tortoises were in fact dead.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Highs in West Palm Beach during that period were in the mid 70's, lows in the mid 50's. Can someone with strong tortoise experience comment on those temperatures, and whether they are appropriate?

I can, have, and do condition some individuals of some species to withstand this and much (MUCH) lower lows, BUT it is generally not considered best practice for typical keepers and there is a lot involved when this conditioning is done effectively (it is gradual, one should have robust individuals to begin with with decent thermal mass, behavioral nuances need to favor success, observations need to be highly accurate, and keeper responses need to be immediate and swift). It is not for most people to even attempt. Hence not best practice for typical keepers.

The high occurs for a relatively brief peak relative to the total day. During that time, in direct sunlight, the tortoises can "charge up" and elevate their body temperatures well beyond the high, but there are several "ifs" in that scenario (a tortoise may park itself in a less opportune position, there could be cloud cover, the position of the Sun in the sky shifts, and so on) and the duration of the span the tortoise's overall body would spend in a good temperature range is relatively brief. Supplemental heat is generally considered wise and extended forays outdoors during significantly cooler weather for animals not conditioned to significant lows is considered risky without some manner of heated hide or house to retreat to in order to recharge (so to speak). If a problem begins to manifest, adjustments should be made immediately to reduce the stressor or the constitution of the animal could degrade. If a tortoise is not handling something well, one would not want to keep exposing it to whatever that something is.

I cannot say for sure what happened here, but the time between purchase (which involves an in-person inspection by its nature) and the onset of symptoms or indicators appears to have been prolonged. That is kind of the crux of it for me. A necropsy, unless showing something that would have taken a much longer period of time (like severe MBD, chronic hepatic failure, chronic renal failure, or some such thing), only holds a particular amount of value. More often for knowledge than anything more. If this animal died of RI that progressed to pneumonia if not adequately dealt with or some kind of bowel issue, that could have easily occurred post-sale. It would really depend on what the necropsy showed and even then many findings would be iffy. And not opinion by a sympathetic author (which I have seen occur too often for what should be scientifically reported and not extrapolated far beyond the facts of the findings).

People kill stuff in a day. In an hour. I have seen people drop squirming small animals on tile floors after unboxing from other vendors and then try to say the animal came in compromised while I was standing there for the injurious event. We have known of people to transport animals on heated seats when coming home from a winter show. Or sitting a deli cup with an animal stuck inside in front of a vent blasting hot air because the human perceives it as too cold while the animal is being killed from that heat. I am not saying any such thing happened here at all. I am saying there was a lot of time between satisfaction and dissatisfaction and a seller determines liability, if any exists, beyond an arbitrarily reasonable point that is made clear up front. I offer LAG with notification within the hour. I offer description within the day. That is for shipment. If handed off in person? No such thing. The hand-off is when I know the animal in its condition is confidently moved from one portion of custody to a new party's custody. Likewise, that is the time the new party taking custody has the opportunity to embrace the animal or refuse it upon inspection due to a significant piece of new information. If the animal flips in its cage that evening, goes hypoxic from lung compression by viscerae, and is turned over in the morning (alive yet compromised), should a seller eat that? No. If a person says he or she has a good setup for a hatchling and puts them in an overly hot cage with no escape from the heat such that the animal suffers from hyperthermia, should the seller eat that? No. Some people offer loooong guarantees. Bless their generous and perhaps naive hearts. lol I know otherwise good keepers who make mistakes. Passing off mistakes can become a problem for a seller while no fault of that seller. Likewise, customers sometimes receive bum deals. Animals not as described. Animals with pre-existing issues. Animals harmed during shipment when the buyer made every attempt to receive the animal in a timely fashion. It happens. Should the buyer eat that? No. Everything in perspective for both sides of the coin.

 

[Lucille]

Lucille, it's irrelevant..

The cause of death of the tortoise is irrelevant to you? I don't think it is irrelevant to this discussion, the seller is saying he provided you with good, healthy animals.

 

[Imrod]

It's irrelevant because the situation is what it is. You have some random person (Elena) that self admitingly doesn't know about Tortoises posting her opinion. Then goes as far as to say that I may be a scammer. Then posts a link to an article and doesn't even read the complete article. I should have done a necropsy and if it was a preexisting condition came on here and blasted him.

 

[Lucille]

I should have done a necropsy and if it was a preexisting condition came on here and blasted him.

This thread is about MOC. It seems that your contribution to the thread is to say that you purchased two tortoises from MOC, and to allege that they both died, one about 2 1/2 weeks after pickup, the other you refuse to disclose the time of death. You refuse to disclose the cause of death of the second tortoise and we do not know the cause of death of the first tortoise. So IMHO it does not seem that at this time, the alleged deaths can be attributed to the seller.
Despite this, the seller was willing to find you another similar tortoise and sell it to you at cost.

 

[MOC REPTILES]

It's irrelevant because the situation is what it is. You have some random person (Elena) that self admitingly doesn't know about Tortoises posting her opinion. Then goes as far as to say that I may be a scammer. Then posts a link to an article and doesn't even read the complete article. I should have done a necropsy and if it was a preexisting condition came on here and blasted him.

But you did not. And still, you pretend to be convinced that it was our fault, and then we get the news that the second tortoise died (most lilely 4 months and plus after purchase) You are just embarassing yourself here.
Your responses are an insult to the intelligence of any human being. I think we should stop replying to this person.
Just take responsibility of your actions, learn about the specific requirements of a species next time, and move on. Talking badly about my business just because you messed up with the care of these torts, is very dishonest.

 

[Imrod]

Lol, you just cannot let it be huh? Embarrassed myself? Hardly. Nickolas is a respected breeder and said those Temps shouldn't have been a problem. The same article that your defender posted says they can tolerate freezing temperatures. Maybe it wasn't even you that did something wrong, I never met you right? I met a girl that had to call you because she didn't even know what pp's were. You have your story, I have mine. I made a mistake in not doing a necropsy (I own that). Good luck.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Lol, you just cannot let it be huh? Embarrassed myself? Hardly. Nickolas is a respected breeder and said those Temps shouldn't have been a problem. The same article that your defender posted says they can tolerate freezing temperatures. Maybe it wasn't even you that did something wrong, I never met you right? I met a girl that had to call you because she didn't even know what pp's were. You have your story, I have mine. I made a mistake in not doing a necropsy (I own that). Good luck.

That is not quite what I said.

 

[MOC REPTILES]

Lol, you just cannot let it be huh? Embarrassed myself? Hardly. Nickolas is a respected breeder and said those Temps shouldn't have been a problem. The same article that your defender posted says they can tolerate freezing temperatures. Maybe it wasn't even you that did something wrong, I never met you right? I met a girl that had to call you because she didn't even know what pp's were. You have your story, I have mine. I made a mistake in not doing a necropsy (I own that). Good luck.

Yup, read well what Nickolas says... plus in the wild they will go very deep in the ground tunnels diring the winter, they have a vast amount of space to choose where to go, their immune system adapts completely differently, and is a gradual process. Don’t compare an outdoor raised or wild animal to cb animals raised indoors. This demostrte once more how much lack of knowledge there is on your side, sorry and good luck!

 

[MOC REPTILES]

I can, have, and do condition some individuals of some species to withstand this and much (MUCH) lower lows, BUT it is generally not considered best practice for typical keepers and there is a lot involved when this conditioning is done effectively (it is gradual, one should have robust individuals to begin with with decent thermal mass, behavioral nuances need to favor success, observations need to be highly accurate, and keeper responses need to be immediate and swift). It is not for most people to even attempt. Hence not best practice for typical keepers.

The high occurs for a relatively brief peak relative to the total day. During that time, in direct sunlight, the tortoises can "charge up" and elevate their body temperatures well beyond the high, but there are several "ifs" in that scenario (a tortoise may park itself in a less opportune position, there could be cloud cover, the position of the Sun in the sky shifts, and so on) and the duration of the span the tortoise's overall body would spend in a good temperature range is relatively brief. Supplemental heat is generally considered wise and extended forays outdoors during significantly cooler weather for animals not conditioned to significant lows is considered risky without some manner of heated hide or house to retreat to in order to recharge (so to speak). If a problem begins to manifest, adjustments should be made immediately to reduce the stressor or the constitution of the animal could degrade. If a tortoise is not handling something well, one would not want to keep exposing it to whatever that something is.

I cannot say for sure what happened here, but the time between purchase (which involves an in-person inspection by its nature) and the onset of symptoms or indicators appears to have been prolonged. That is kind of the crux of it for me. A necropsy, unless showing something that would have taken a much longer period of time (like severe MBD, chronic hepatic failure, chronic renal failure, or some such thing), only holds a particular amount of value. More often for knowledge than anything more. If this animal died of RI that progressed to pneumonia if not adequately dealt with or some kind of bowel issue, that could have easily occurred post-sale. It would really depend on what the necropsy showed and even then many findings would be iffy. And not opinion by a sympathetic author (which I have seen occur too often for what should be scientifically reported and not extrapolated far beyond the facts of the findings).

People kill stuff in a day. In an hour. I have seen people drop squirming small animals on tile floors after unboxing from other vendors and then try to say the animal came in compromised while I was standing there for the injurious event. We have known of people to transport animals on heated seats when coming home from a winter show. Or sitting a deli cup with an animal stuck inside in front of a vent blasting hot air because the human perceives it as too cold while the animal is being killed from that heat. I am not saying any such thing happened here at all. I am saying there was a lot of time between satisfaction and dissatisfaction and a seller determines liability, if any exists, beyond an arbitrarily reasonable point that is made clear up front. I offer LAG with notification within the hour. I offer description within the day. That is for shipment. If handed off in person? No such thing. The hand-off is when I know the animal in its condition is confidently moved from one portion of custody to a new party's custody. Likewise, that is the time the new party taking custody has the opportunity to embrace the animal or refuse it upon inspection due to a significant piece of new information. If the animal flips in its cage that evening, goes hypoxic from lung compression by viscerae, and is turned over in the morning (alive yet compromised), should a seller eat that? No. If a person says he or she has a good setup for a hatchling and puts them in an overly hot cage with no escape from the heat such that the animal suffers from hyperthermia, should the seller eat that? No. Some people offer loooong guarantees. Bless their generous and perhaps naive hearts. lol I know otherwise good keepers who make mistakes. Passing off mistakes can become a problem for a seller while no fault of that seller. Likewise, customers sometimes receive bum deals. Animals not as described. Animals with pre-existing issues. Animals harmed during shipment when the buyer made every attempt to receive the animal in a timely fashion. It happens. Should the buyer eat that? No. Everything in perspective for both sides of the coin.

Thanks for your complete answer Nickolas
Last year I had a customer who purchased a crested gecko at my shop.
The animal was produced by us, solid and flawless at 4 months old.

3 hours later the customer comes back to the shop upset that the animal was dead.
As soon as I touched the deli cup I could feel the heat.
“Sir, the temp gun reads the deli cup at 100F, you cooked your crestie inside your car with no ac!!”
Embarassed face “ eeehh no way, went back home and put in his cage and he died. Want full compensation or will write negative reviews on google, yelp, fb etc....”
“Sir, do as you wish, we are not responsible of your negligence, and please never buy another animal from anywhere”.
Some people just like to be a pain, and would never accept their actions, and would go as low as threats if you don’t do as they wish..

 

[elena]

Rod, that is not at all what Nick said, and the fact that they can tolerate temperatures of 70-100 degrees does not mean they can live at consistently low temperatures. You don't seem to understand what Nick has said, you don't seem to understand what the article said, you are just twisting it to suit your agenda. I can't believe that you won't consider the possibility that you have made a mistake. If you had made changes to your husbandry after the death of the female, you may not have lost the male too. It's hubris.

 

[MOC REPTILES]

Yup, read well what Nickolas says... plus in the wild they will go very deep in the ground tunnels diring the winter, they have a vast amount of space to choose where to go, their immune system adapts completely differently, and is a gradual process. Don’t compare an outdoor raised or wild animal to cb animals raised indoors. This demostrte once more how much lack of knowledge there is on your side, sorry and good luck!

Rod, that is not at all what Nick said, and the fact that they can tolerate temperatures of 70-100 degrees does not mean they can live at consistently low temperatures. You don't seem to understand what Nick has said, you don't seem to understand what the article said, you are just twisting it to suit your agenda. I can't believe that you won't consider the possibility that you have made a mistake. If you had made changes to your husbandry after the death of the female, you may not have lost the male too. It's hubris.

Thank you Elena That was straight to the point

 

[Snake-Queen]

Rod, that is not at all what Nick said, and the fact that they can tolerate temperatures of 70-100 degrees does not mean they can live at consistently low temperatures. You don't seem to understand what Nick has said, you don't seem to understand what the article said, you are just twisting it to suit your agenda. I can't believe that you won't consider the possibility that you have made a mistake. If you had made changes to your husbandry after the death of the female, you may not have lost the male too. It's hubris.

This is pretty much what I got from Nick's post. Also, that it is possible to condition them to tolerate lower temperatures, but that it a gradual process & not for the inexperienced.

Taking them from a completely regulated habitat to outside with so many fluctuations in temperature is likely the cause of death.

While they can tolerate lower temperatures, that doesn't mean they can live in lower temperatures consistently; it means that a day or two won't kill them, but two and a half weeks may.

 

[JimM]

Two 'bad' reviews is it ???

One mad about missing out on something they wanted because they just couldn't let go of the money and another who seems like he set the animals up wrong from the start.

What about some reviews from MOC's satisfied customers before I miss out on something I want ?

 

[elena]

Francesco, maybe you could ask some of your other customers to weigh in?

 

[MOC REPTILES]

Two 'bad' reviews is it ???

One mad about missing out on something they wanted because they just couldn't let go of the money and another who seems like he set the animals up wrong from the start.

What about some reviews from MOC's satisfied customers before I miss out on something I want ?

Oh no sir, you are missing one more here
But if you go on google or facebook, you can see pretty much most reviews, and also the quality of animals we offer.. We also use istagram to show some of the rarest species we keep and breed.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Just for curiosity's sake, I looked up MOC Reptiles on Google, they have a 4.8 rating out of 5. If I was in their area, I would definitely check them out and feel confident that I would be able to purchase a healthy animal at their store.

 

[bklynsfinest312]

how dare you reply with a " " lmao

 

[MOC REPTILES]

how dare you reply with a " " lmao

Next time will better reply with a