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moderators role - moderation vs. personal involvment

Mickey_TLK said:
Rich you didnt mention Dr Owens contacting the NARB. I assume you feel he was inline on that one.


Mickey, I believe I have plainly stated that what a moderator does outside of this site is none of my business, nor my concern. The only issue here is what a moderator has done within this site in reference to possible bias, and that is what I am addressing.

As a for instance, people are not assessed warning points for being a bad guy, even if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. They are only assessed warning points for actions they make while on this site, as that is the limits of my (and the moderators') authority and interest here.
 
Mickey_TLK said:
Also not to beat a dead horse, but you didnt respond to what prompted my first email to Jay. Why was I pointed twice in the start. This is what caused me to believe that Jay may be leaning on me due to his involvment with members of the KC Society.


I understood the 6 points for curseing, however I didnt grasp how I got another 3 for Discourtesy towards another member. Thats the clarification I asked for in my emails to start the communication with Jay.

You also pointed out that I had tried a few times in the beggining to defuse the situation with other people whos point of view did not agree with mine. I still believe had the moderator stayed out, or atleast sent a warning shot on the opposeing side of the argument, that the thread would have stayed far more civil.

Anyways I believe thats all I have to add.

Tell me why you think it is impossible for one post to be a violation for multiple rules here? Do you feel that once you have warning points assessed for one infraction, that the post is then immune to further points for different infractions?

Im a too bit jobber now?

GO [**censored**] YOURSELF.

......

You want to stick up for your show fine, but you want to insult me and my business with a statement like that, then sell animals to us "too bit jobbers".

SCREW YOU.

You got points for your censored profanity. You also got additional points for telling a member here "SCREW YOU". If you had threatened somone in the post, you would have gotten further points. Then if you made any other sort of violation, that post would have been subjected to points on that particular violation as well.

As an analogy, if a traffic cop pulls you over for speeding, does that mean that he can't also write you up for not wearing a seat belt, driving while intoxicated, broken taillights, and no muffler, all at the same time?

The warning system here only allows one infraction at a time to be levied, but any moderator, myself included, can certainly post warning points as many times as necessary to cover all of the infractions found within a single post. Matter of fact, it is quite possible that different infractions may be spotted by different moderators.

That's the way it is. Simplest solution to the problem is to just read the rules, and try real hard not to violate them. That's all it takes to avoid getting the warning points.

I stated my opinions, I think, pretty much in what I thought as I read through that thread. Certainly I did not expect everyone to agree with me, but that's the way it is.
 
UGHHH

Ok, but it gets to the point.

He would have NEVER HAVE HAD THE EMAILS HE FORWARDED TO NARB if he was not THE MODERATOR OF YOUR SITE. You asked me to deal with Jay on the issue, as you were too busy. Now my emails are turned against me in my business.

Wash your hands all you want, but I think it sets a very bad example. If a moderator of YOUR SITE has a vendetta against someone, and uses information gained from YOUR SITE while performing in his role as moderator, that directly reflects on your site. But then again im a biased opinion so what do I know.
 
I understand there can be two violations in one post. However in your summary you didnt mention the "screw you" points. Just the curesing. You have allready explained that to me, however you didnt address it in your review.

Would you have from the start, no points issued yet, pointed me twice for that. If "too bit jobber" in context, given the person who was posting it, is not point worthy how is screw you.

Jay had allready sent the message to "tone it down" with the points for the curesing. However the issue of "bias" comes into play when you consider the added 3 points.

I had ZERO HISTORY of exessive points violations prior to this thread. When warned on the last two occasions, for a total of 2 points prior to this, I didnt continue bashing. Had Jay just wanted to tone down the thread, he would have likely just pointed the profanity, or if he was as strict as pointing for "screw you" he would have pointed others IN MY OPINION.
 
Quite frankly, Mickey, in this day and age, anyone who considered emails and "private" messages as being truly private is being naive. Once you press the SEND button, you are publishing your words in public, whether you like it or not.

If Jay had emails from you, YOU did send them, did you not?

The reason Jay got emails from you is because YOU sent them to him, did you not? Then you figured you would start copying ME in the process.
Guys.... I had to leave early to go to the Mid Atlantic Show last week
because of a hurricane breathing down my neck. I am now a FULL TWO WEEKS
behind in feeding my baby snakes. I have more things to do right now than I
can shake a stick at, and on top of that the possibility of yet another
hurricane coming this way. I am late getting my adults started on the
process of brumation, because everything else has dominoed. Trust me when I
say there are more important things (to me) on my list of things to do at
the moment.

I guess the thread in question here is earth shattering, since so much
ruckus has been kicked up over it, but so far I haven't felt the tremors
strong enough to where I felt the need to drop everything else I am doing in
order to look into it. But until I feel those tremors, this just is not
likely to percolate very high up onto my priority list.

Mickey, if you want to pull your advertising from my site, that is just
fine. As soon as I get the time I will remove your ad and refund your
money. That is certainly your choice to make. Until then you can consider
your ads as being run gratis.

Rich Zuchowski
[http://www.SerpenCo.com
http://www.FaunaClassifieds.com
http://www.HerpWantAds.com
http://www.FaunaArt.com
http://www.FaunaBooks.com
http://www.CornSnakes.com
http://www.HerpShows.com
http://www.FaunaTopSites.com
http://www.FaunaNet.com
http://www.ArmsLocker.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr Jay Owens" <[email protected]>
To: "'Lizard King'" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Rich Zuchowski" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: kc thread points ect


> Mickey,
> I think that you're taking my comments just a little too seriously (as
> well
> as reading into them meanings that were never intended). I never called
> you
> a jobber or a two bit jobber. I simply stated that according to the
> definition of a jobber that it described you well enough that I can't give
> someone warning points for it. Jobber is not a bad word, nor can it be
> deemed "name calling" when it is an accurate description.
>
> I never said that it's a bad thing to buy and sell animals that were
> produced by others. I don't do it, but I don't have a problem with people
> who do either.
>
> I will explain yet AGAIN... You got warning points for using profanity
> and
> telling someone to get screwed. You expected the warning points, so
> please
> stop complaining about it after the fact.
>
> For the record, whether or not you value my input is of no consequence to
> me. You were the one who contacted me complaining about the fact that you
> got warning points, and someone else didn't. Since you decided to CC Rich
> in this discussion, I have as well. If he thinks that someone else
> deserves
> warning points, then he can give them, but I will not.
>
> In conclusion, you are obviously a very sensitive person, and you take
> people's comments very personally. I'm sorry that you feel that you're
> being "picked on," but that is not the case. If you don't want people to
> be
> antagonistic towards you on a forum, then perhaps you should reconsider
> next
> time before you start talking bad about someone on a public forum (David
> Nieves and the KCHS Breeder's Expo)...either that or grow a thicker skin.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jay Owens
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lizard King [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: kc thread points ect
>
> Yea Jay
>
> You know what I expected the points for the curseing, but for disrespect
> to
> other members, hey what about the disrespect they and you in your words
> now
> are showing me.
>
> So what I resell other animals, as well as animals I produce, as do many
> many many other people in this business. You want to contiune to
> disrespect
> me and call me a jobber, and then say you see no difference between a two
> bit jobber and a jobber. I can read between the lines quite well.
>
> I edit myself quite well on that site, I was called out in a diragatory
> manner by someone with "pull" and I called him on it.
>
> Go ahead and stop emailing me, I no longer value your input. I commented
> on
> a thread on a public forum. Other people have made quite similar comments
> to
> mine. This was a thread about the Kansas City show, I gave my input. That
> is
> what this site is for.
>
>

So what you are saying is that if you had never sent emails to Jay in the first place harrassing him about that thread, and then getting obsessed with the idea that if he is not for you he must be against you, then you never would have posted that threat in the first place that was then forwarded on to NARB. Is that it?

From what I have seen, and I believe I spelled this out in my conclusions about that thread, your TOTAL claim of bias is based on emails passed between yourself and Jay. NOT with anything that Jay really did on my site with that thread.

Please read it again if you are still uncertain about my position on this. I am not going to go on and on repeating myself about it. Matter of fact, I thank you for this, because I was getting resentful of having to waste my time with this, much less spending even more time on another thread. YOU are apparently not going to accept the fact that someone may disagree with you about anything.

I am reinstating Jay Owens as a moderator on this site without wasting my time further on this issue. I can see the writing on the wall about this whole darn thing.
 
Sidestepping the whole Mickey thing as a lot of bad noise that I don't care about in the least... To me, seeing a lot of "Maybe points" in the assessment which were not applied to people who are personal friends of Jay's combined with a lot of maybe points which WERE applied to people who he has no such affiliation with... Well, there's the bias.

So while I still don't think Jay is or ever has been a good moderator because of his tendency to allow his personal opinions influence his moderation decisions, the solution which Rich gave earlier seems like it'll pretty easily solve the problem. Obviously moderators will be involved in threads and sometimes in extended threads their initial involvement may predate problems which later arise, but when they have a clear interest in a thread's contents or outcome and are emotionally invested, they should reasonabally recognize their bias and allow another moderator to take the moderation duties at that point. Although Jay's actions directly contradicted this within a day or so of Rich posting it, the fact that this thread was here should keep him from crossing that line from evenhanded moderation into personal retribution.

And if it doesn't... Well, he's kind of under a microscope now, isn't he? If he starts throwing those warning points at people who he has a personal disagreement with or failing to hane them out to his good buddies, it'll probably be brought back up.
 
my feelings for whatever they are worth

This will be my first post since August and quite possibly my last post ever on fauna (I would like to keep the door open but Rich may not allow it) Since Dr Owens had been named a moderator have felt that the line as been crossed more and more to a personal situation vs. the basis of just keeping the peace and enforcing the rules. His personal stance on several issues I dont feel has been considered in how he issues warnings. Nor do I feel he has the ability to seperate himself from the duties of moderator vs. participant. In short he is the worst thing that has ever happened to this forum. And before anyone can say its just personality I will say this, I disagree with Kens view on politics, guns and several other issues but have never felt the threat that what i say or feel will get me warned. Dr Owens is different I truly feel if I cross him he will penalize me for doing so.

Now I know most anyone is going to say no great loss to me leaving. Thats fine I dont care, I will still have my animals and will still buy, and sell. I care enough about the hobby to keep up with it... but fauna isnt it any longer.

This is a forum, different views are the norm, and having a different view shouldnt be any basis for points or digs made by the moderator you disagree with. If I wanted a KS I would have stayed active in it...and although I dont feel this is the same I do feel that I cant post my feelings on numerous subjects for concern that it may offend this mod without violating truly violating any rules.

I guess I can sum up my feelings in a very short phrase, "wisdom is not a direct result of knowledge". Dr Owens may have all of the learning a person could want but he has no wisdom. And he has no place being a mod in this forum or any other that cares about the future of this hobby.
 
Michael,

As long as you don't violate the rules, then you have nothing to worry about. Mistakes will happen and points can possibly be assessed in error, but if that happens I will fix the problem. No mod can just make up violations to apply warning points. That is my job exclusively. So as long as you are aware of the rules, and take care not to violate them, I can't see where the problem lies.

Sorry to see you go, but that is your choice to make.
 
i have discussed this with a couple of other people and, while i do not agree the KC thread was just one instance.... what about the anthony cappanetto thread... and i am sure there are otheres. if it was just one thread and one instance i could understand but its not and i personally do not feel comfortable posting here as long as he is a mod... you ask why? because i brought this thread over there and he could go and asses me points at anytime even for the slightest infraction...
say there is a conversation going on about genetics in the mean time while discussing this we get of the original topic at hand... well there ya go points.... what he see's as vulgar and what i see as vulgar are different and what i see as rude and what he see's as rude are different as well.... i think the quality of moderating here is fair but he definately brings the integrity of you guys down.
should i have to be afraid to post for the fact that retaliation might be a facot in which i have to be on my "p's" and Q'a" and walk around here like i am walking on egg shells?
i dont know rich this website is great and has grown but i feel that you will be losing more than you think letting jay back as a moderator... of course these are just my opinions and what do they account for. i figured the simplest way to see was to make a poll since this is a comunity but i guess its not what i thought it was and i am very dissapointed in you as well.
and i know what your responce will be so just save it please..... i have seen it in how you have adressed others. all i wanted to do is express how i feel here nothing more, nothing less . i thank you for this site but yes i am dissapointed in how all of this has been handled.
oh well.
i do not expect nor want a reply thank you
 
Robin - YOU asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Sorry it was not what you wanted, but that is the way with life sometimes.

First off, as best I can recall, I did not ask members here about any of the moderators I chose for this site prior to my asking them aboard to help me out. I believe my procedure has been to ask the current group of moderators their opinion of anyone I am considering adding on as a moderator, and I feel that is just and fair. The decision to add a moderator is not going to be based on a popularity vote, just as any decision to remove a moderator every will be here. This will be the result of a consensus decision of the other moderators, but with the final decision laying within my hands alone. And as I have said at least once in my life, I do not expect everyone to agree with all of my decisions, but they are mine to make here, nonetheless.

By nature, moderators just are not going to be popular with everyone. Particularly on a site like this where conversations can get quite heated and it is a given that a moderator will need to step in once in a while to try to tone down things. We are getting roughly 300 to 500 new posts every day here. For anyone to expect us to read each and every post and then decide if they all need to have warning points is ludicrous. Often the ONLY post we may read in a thread is the one someone sent us a notice about. None before, and none afterwards. That is just the way it is.

I certainly am not going to read EVERYTHING, and I certainly will not demand of moderators donating their time here, for free, to do that either. If that is what you need out of a site, then this site is not for you. If you need a site where you can be hip deep in moderators, so they can keep you and everyone else exactly in line, then go find one. This is not it.

So yes, you are going to see occasions where there is the appearance of bias simply because no one here is going to read everything, and will spot check posts and threads as time and effort allows, and deal with things as best we can. Of course, nearly everyone who gets points is going to feel they are unjustified and unfairly biased against them. You all have NO idea how many emails and PMs I get from people myself when I warn them about one infraction or another. The number of people claiming I am unfair and unjust, is staggering.

The simple answer is to proofread your messages before you press that SUBMIT REPLY button. If you have any doubts about it being inappropriate and maybe giving you warning points, then edit it BEFORE you send it. THAT is the purpose of the warning point system. To try to keep messages posted here within guidelines that I feel are reasonable expectations for people posting on a publicly viewable forum.

I have stated before that moderators should not act in both a moderator's capacity and a post contributor within the same thread. After giving this considerable thought and especially after analyzing that "KC mites" thread, this is not a feasible thing to ask of my moderators. In that thread, Jay Owens was actually dragged into the thread by emails passed back and forth between himself and Mickey Hinkle. So Mickey MADE him personally involved in that thread and also at the same time, involved him as a moderator. For me to MAKE a moderator choose one hat or another, is patently unfair and quite overbearing of me to do. So I hereby rescind that guideline and replace it with a request that all moderators use their best judgment in situations like this. YOU all need to realize that moderators are PEOPLE and have emotions just like you do. To expect them to be robots is unfair and unreasonable.

I spend a lot of time on this site, probably more time then I should, so I think I will become well aware of a situation where any moderator is abusing their role here. I do welcome people to contact me about such things, or post in a thread like this, as long as it is not in itself abusive of a moderator in the process. But I will be perfectly frank here. I am not going to give a whole lot of weight for consideration to people who my inspection determines HAVE been warranted getting those points. I see enough of these sorts of "sour grape"-a-grams and I am not willing to allow someone to engage in a free for all moderator bashing thread in public which has no apparent goal but to simply bash one of the moderators. Nor am I going to be impressed by a "ground swell" of a half dozen people out of 14,000 who think they speak for the majority on an issue.

If you think you have been biased against, simply report the post, which sends a link to me, or send me a PM or email and I will look at it. If I do not agree with the moderator's assessment of warning points, I will remove them and keep track of the number of times this happens. If I do believe the warning points ARE warranted, I will keep track of that as well, and keep that in mind the next time I am contacted by that person about such an issue. Enough of these kinds of contacts, and I will do something about someone, no matter who, to end it.

So, if you all want to bash ME instead, for my decisions, then go right ahead. I believe I have stated my position sufficiently by now. Just don't bash me in such a manner that you will get warning points for it. :) Because I AM biased concerning issues that relate to me and my site. Which is as it should be.
 
Ok Rich you brought up something I have been wondering about for some time now. The report this post button. When someone does that does it go to you or is it put out there for any moderator here to look into further? Not that I have ever used that function nor intend to either, but I have always been wondering how that report is delevered and to whom.

And about points, I don't see what the big thing is about people crying because they were given points. Hell when I got my three I knew when I posted the picture in question it would be deleted and I never cried because I got points. At least it was somewhat funny and went along with the thread in general. And I think pretty much everyone here has posted something which by TOS should have been given points to, but have somehow slid by for one reason or another. I bet you don't here people crying about any mod here not giving them points for something they could have been given points for now do you?

My first post on this thread was more along the lines of asking for a level playing field for all members. That has sort of been done by you taking the time and going back and reading the pages after pages of posts and giving points where they were indeed due. I am not out to join a witch hunt and burn anyone at the stake, just get a level playing field where it was needed.
 
bcfos said:
Ok Rich you brought up something I have been wondering about for some time now. The report this post button. When someone does that does it go to you or is it put out there for any moderator here to look into further? Not that I have ever used that function nor intend to either, but I have always been wondering how that report is delevered and to whom.

It is delivered to all of the mods. Basically, whomever gets to it first usually takes care of it.
 
Actually the way the site is set up is that reported posts go to whoever is listed as moderator(s) of the forum in which the post is located. If NO moderator is listed, then the admin (me) receives the notice.

So with that in mind, ALL the moderators, including me, get any notices that take place in the reptiles & amphibian sections, since we are all listed as moderators there. Since I am not listed as a moderator in the other sections, only the moderators listed for those forums get the notices. So someone kicking up a ruckus in the Birds BOI, will probably go completely unnoticed by me unless one of the mods brings it to my attention after they have received notices of some offending posts.

FYI, many times I will check on a post and find that it has already been dealt with by a moderator. Or, as has happened quite frequently, two or more of us might view the post at the same time, and it is quite possible that we might all assess warning points, not aware that we are doing it concurrently with each other. When such a case takes place and I am made aware of it, I remove the duplicate warning points. But if the warning points are about different multiple infractions, then they stay.

Hope that explains it a little better.
 
Yes Rich it explains what I wanted to know, and thanks taking the time to explain this.
 
Well now that we have carrot points as well as stick points (the new 'reputation' reward system), I think if the mods work as a team they should ALL, individually, give people who post good stuff (that would be Lucille) lots of good rep points. :D
 
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