Okeetee corns

[kenalotia]

As for the two hatchlings, I really can't say. As hatchlings Okeetees (meaning the "look") have not yet developed their full, bright colors. At this age, they are not easily distinguished from normal hatchlings. I, for one, do not have enough experience with Okeetee hatchlings to even attempt to tell you if one is an Okeetee based on one picture.

As for the adult, I'd say that's a normal. Of course, it could be wild caught straight from the hunt club, but we've got no reason to believe that's the case. Although it has red blotches with thick black borders, its background color looks too dark. Too much brown/yellow in there, not enough orange. If you want to get a good idea of what people are expecting when you talk about the Okeetee look, see Kathy Love's site (corn-utopia.com) or Rich Z's Serpenco (www.serpenco.com). They both have some good pictures.

 

[WebSlave]

A basic rule of thumb, I would guess, is that if you don't have very good reason to believe that the animal has ancestors from the Okeetee Hunt Club region, then it is not an Okeetee. No matter what it looks like.

But on the other hand, if I had a butt ugly corn snake that I personally caught right dead center in the hunt club, I would not call it an Okeetee corn either.

 

[SnakeMover]

okay....

I guess I'll hold on to them for a while and see what happens as they shed. The breeder told me they would brighten up with each shed. And he DID sell them to me as original Okeetee stock. I have no reason to not believe him and they DO seem to have a brighter color than the normal corns from my other lot. I had a friend over last night who's been herping for years. (He's actually the admin on another herp site.) I tested him with two of the corns and he picked the Okeetee out. When I asked him why he thought the snake he picked was an Okeetee, he said it had more orange on it and the background color was brighter than the other snake.
So, I'll wait a while and, if they keep on looking more like the pic I saw on the website above, I'll sell them as Okeetees. If they don't look nicer, I'll sell them as normals.

You know, this forum can be very enlightening and educational. Thank you to you folks with greater experience and knowledge for sharing.

Dennis

 

[Darin Chappell]

Dennis,

Here is the picture of a couple of animals that most would agree have the "okeetee look," but I have recently learned I can't trace the lineage sufficiently to continue to call them that. See for yourself how they differ from the adult you posted above:

 

[Clay Davenport]

Here is a picture of Rhett Butler, an exceptional Okeetee in the collection of David Jones. He was WC in Jasper County SC.
He is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful corns I've seen. Of all the morphs that have been created, they just can't compare to one of these.
This photo belongs to David and is posted with his permission.

 

[King Cobra]

so what is this?

i also bought this corn from a breeder who said it was anormal
\but i think it's a oketee.
can u guys tell me?

 

[Clay Davenport]

i also bought this corn from a breeder who said it was anormal
\but i think it's a oketee.
can u guys tell me?

If the breeder isn't even attempting to claim it's an okeetee, then you have no grounds at all to think it may be descended from that locality. This is the root of alot of the problem, people get a corn they have no idea about and make a determination that's it's okeetee based on their own opinion, and the fact that okeetee is in their mind, cooler than a normal corn. Can you look at two people and tell which is from Nebraska and which is from Ohio?
It's a normal cornsnake.

 

[John Albrecht]

My turn!

I'm not going to pretend to be able to solve this delima but I had a few thoughts regarding some of the stuff that's been said in here and I just figured I'd put my .015 in.
I'm glad the issue with the Graybands was brought up because I think that there is a lot there that can be applied here.
I've had a mild interest in Graybands as I suppose many of us do and I've visited a lot of the websites of some the bigger names in the Grayband arena. There are a few names that I have a much greater comfort level with regarding the reliability of locality data than others. If somebody I never heard of posted an ad for some desireable locality on KS there is no way in hell that I could even consider a purchase without going through a lot of trouble to verify the locality and maybe even get some references from people that know his collection.
Right now, I am in the process of nagging poor Chip to death over the details of locality and ancestory for a couple of Okeetee cornsnakes that he gave me. Being the apparently reliable and standup guy that he is I am pretty much getting answers to all my questions along with pictures of the parents AND grandparents! In my book this is good enough to classify these snakes as true Okeetees. Since this is the degree of detail that I am looking for when I want locality verification, I in turn am willing to maintain and provide the same degree of detail for the Okeetee corns that I have. This is exactly how the grayband people do it. It basically boils down to a system of peer review.
Now I want to tell you some stuff that I have been reluctant to say straight out before because I generally expect people to check on this stuff for themselves but apparently that doesn't really happen.
1) As far as I can determine Kathy Love doesn't have a single cornsnake that she can verify is 100% Okeetee locality. If you use her criteria to label a cornsnake as Okeetee then just about 95% of the cornsnakes in captivity could probably be considered true Okeetees. It really irks me when I see all these conversations over on the cornsnake forum on KS where all these newbie collectors talk about their newly acquired Okeetee corn that they just picked up from Kathy. I had to really ask a lot of questions about the origin of her animals to get to the truth before I finally realized that I was going to pass on picking up any of her animals. As far as the difference between her "Classic" and her "Okeetees" I have no clue what she means. Neither is pure Okeetee and that's all I care about.
2) I was interested in picking up some "Okeetee" corns from Everglades Herp this year but found out through the same due diligence that they were also not able to verify anything about the animals even though they were WC. I talked to multiple people on the phone and they insisted for along time that these animals they had were pure Okeetees. I was finally able to narrow down the locality to "somewhere in South Carolina" and they STILL insisted that this made them true Okeetees! So as far as people selling "True Okeetees" go it's pretty much anything goes unless you can validate the locality through details of capture for ALL the ancestors.
Now that I got that off my chest I want to also say that there are a lot of real nice looking snakes out there that are not true Okeetees. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Some people don't care about locality but just want a certain look. Both views are completely fine and there is a market for both. But I cringe at the deception that is occurring with some of the likes of the establishments that I just mentioned. They are certainly not the only ones but it is a bit surprising that vendors with such good reputations would feel the need to not be completely open about their method of assigning the Okeetee lable. I am extremely pleased with Rich for being honest about his views as we go back a long ways and it would have just killed me to see him do it any other way. Now if Rich decides he's going to breed true Okeetee cornsnakes you can be sure that they are going to be exactly what he says they are. I can't say the same for many of the other better known cornsnake breeders.
And by-the-way Rich, those Miami corns used to be known as "Homestead" corns until you pretty much took over the market and renamed them (lol).
When I hunt for Okeetees I actually go through the trouble of purposely not collecting areas that would be much more productive that adjacent to that area. This makes collecting for Okeetees a hell of a lot harder than it is for people that are willing to fudge a little on the locality. I want to have the best Okeetees in captivity and the last thing I want to be dealing with is quesitonable localities. Also, Okeetee Hunt Club is a hell of a lot bigger than most people realize. most people hunt in the area surrounded by Rt 336, Rt 17, Purrysburg Rd and Rt 321. But that is only 1/2 of the hunt club area! I am continually amazed as I explore the area how many times I come across that stupid little yellow Okeetee Hunt Club sign in places that I didn't know it extended to.
Now I also plan on having some animals from the Rt 17 and Rt 170 area of Jasper County. These are damn nice looking animals that most people couldn't tell are not Okeetees. But these will be my "Jasper Cnty" locality animals, not Okeetees!
Ok, I'm done ranting and the wife is needs a hand. Later on guys! Thanks for letting me ramble.

 

[WebSlave]

Miami Phase corns...

LOL!!

I can still remember the coining of that name.

Connie and I had driven down to southwest Florida on vacation (I almost remember what that word means) and were planning on going to visit Bill and Kathy Love and then drive over to Miami with them. Bill asked me what I was looking for over there and I commented that I was looking for some nice Miami Phase corns. He said "Oh, is that what we are going to call them?" I just was puzzled by that question, and replied, well they come from that area and look pretty distinctive, so that fits as well as anything else, I guess."

Many of the names I have come up with were nothing more that labels I used within my own collection to refer to various types of corns I was working with. I really had no idea nor plan that they would be used by anyone else but me in referring to them.

Does anyone know whom first marketed corns using the name "Okeetee Corns"?

 

[elrojo]

locality, verification, hunters, and Columbia show

I rode down to the Columbia show yesterday with my buddy Clay Davenport (and two female Okeetees for a swap). Being a three hour drive, we had time to discuss at length this thread, vendors, trade names, and everything pertaining to cornsnakes. I assumed Rich had coined the "Okeetee" term for the region's animals. Kauffield's books never refer to them as anything but cornsnakes or red rat snakes, so unless he bred and sold them after publishing, I doubt it was him.
Upon arrival, I located Davie Jones, Ridgeland resident and snake-hunter extrordinaire. He had a similar hatching ratio (75% males) I did this year so the pickins' were slim. This man moved to Jasper county some 25 years ago just to hunt the "cawns". Besides having the prettiest cawn snakes you'll ever see, he's a heck of a story-teller and all around great guy. What he ISN'T is anal-retentive about record keeping! He explained where he'd caught Rhett and several other parents/grandparents of my stock, but when it came down to who had bred to who and when, I was throughly confused! This is no way discounts his animals. They are locality, and he has an eye for picking his holdbacks. And his snake's are beautiful!
Funny thing I noticed at the show: I saw only two vendors selling "normal" corns. Lots of "Okeetees" -even two yearlings that looked more like Miami phase than normal. I spoke to the two with normals and thanked these vendors for their honesty in labeling.
Clay and I discussed the matter of calling a snake "normal". It carries a stigma of "common" or implies less-valuable. Perhaps normals could be called "wild-type" or "homestead". Or "harvest" or "classic". Anything but normal or Okeetee!
The reason some breeders get so upset with us "locality" freaks is because they feel if we "win" the debate, then their "okeetee" corns will become normals, and somehow less valuable. I understand this and encourage folks not to take it personally. There are at least a few of us to whom locality matters more than apperarance. Obviously, we strive to have both.
Then I got to thinking about these forums in regards to specific localities, upside and downside involed. On one hand, it keeps folks in the know... if someone rips a member off, gets caught in a lie, or has any bad practices, they are exposed. On the other, if I say "Yep, this snake came from 336 just past the S-curve by the big pine where Davie showed me he has a bunch of tin layed out" (I made this location up) I could get some folks pretty unhappy with me! If a hunter should take me to his "hot spot", it's like a fisherman taking you to his secret fishing hole. It may be alright to take a friend, but he wouldn't want you to post it on the Internet.

 

[Clay Davenport]

As far as I can determine Kathy Love doesn't have a single cornsnake that she can verify is 100% Okeetee locality. If you use her criteria to label a cornsnake as Okeetee then just about 95% of the cornsnakes in captivity could probably be considered true Okeetees. It really irks me when I see all these conversations over on the cornsnake forum on KS where all these newbie collectors talk about their newly acquired Okeetee corn that they just picked up from Kathy. I had to really ask a lot of questions about the origin of her animals to get to the truth before I finally realized that I was going to pass on picking up any of her animals. As far as the difference between her "Classic" and her "Okeetees" I have no clue what she means. Neither is pure Okeetee and that's all I care about.

This is very interesting, and somewhat ironic, especially the last sentence of what John said.
Let's look at a direct quote from page 76 of The Cornsnake Manual by the Loves. The emphasis is mine.

This fact has unfortunately been exploited occasionally to help sell normal, undifferentiated hatchlings, or offspring "diluted" from 'Okeetee' stock crossed to something else, since the Okeetee name has become synonymous with the stunning coloration many collectors seek.

So, unless she does indeed have true okeetees which haven't been outcrossed, then she too is exploiting the name to help sell "offspring 'dilluted' from Okeetee stock crossed with something else," a practice which she referred to as unfortunate.

My unpopular opinion is if you don't have true Okeetees then get some, or else quit seling offspring by that name.

 

[John Albrecht]

for the record...

I'm completely open to being wrong in what I have said about Kathy. Sometimes I wonder if there wasn't some kind of communication problem which led to my understanding the situation incorrectly. At other times where I was pretty sure that Kathy has seen the messages where I have invited her to correct me if I am mistaken. To the best of my knowledge she has never tried to. I don't bear her any ill will at all and I can see very clearly that she has a fine collection. But she apparently doesn't have any pure Okeetee stock.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I haven't talked with Kathy about her Okeetees, and do not myself know what her criteria is for using the term.
I was told, after my last post, that she has owned true 100% locality okeetees, and I wouldn't doubt if those, or their offspring still remain in her breeding group. However, unless she has maintained the purity of the line and refrained from crossing at least some of them with any unknown corns, then she, in my opinion, has lost the bloodline.
She may adhere to Rich's usage of the term where if either parent can be traced to the area then they can be called okeetee. I personally disagree with this approach, but they are of course free to call their snakes what they wish.

I would like to see the respected corn breeders dedicate a bit of rack space to some verifiable locality okeetees, but they may not think it a worthy use of space. Perhaps if a greater number of people begin to show interest in this area of cornsnake culture, that might begin to happen in the future.
With the current focus on the creation of new morphs and the enhancment of other traits, it just doesn't seem to be a priority to worry about locality for many.
For my own purposes, I would go straight to Kathy or Rich if I were in the market for most any of the exceptional corns they produce, but when it comes to adding specimens to my locality okeetee project, I simply couldn't consider their animals to be candidates because their criteria aren't as strict as I require to be considered true locality.

 

[Hawkeyeherps]

Up until two weeks ago I had a 14 year old single corn snake in my collection, my first corn snake, whose parents were taken from the Hunt Club in the 1970's. She was as locality as one could get and except for the thick black blotch borders, was as normal looking as one could get. I could never sell her or her offspring as Okeetee because most people that I have talked to at shows expect a certain look rather than a locality. I have crossed her to bolder colored snakes to get the blotch borders and deep colors that I want. I now sell, and will continue to sell, those snakes that fit my personal criteria as Okeetee phase. I could give a poop about locality, but I don't make any false claims about it either. I have no ill will towards those who maintain pure locality Okeetee corns but, in my opinion, the expectation of the public has been towards color rather than locality. There are plenty of ugly South Carolina corns and the fact that they came from the Okeetee Hunt Club does not make them an Okeetee phase corn in my personal opinion.

 

[elrojo]

The Original Rhett Butler!

I bought a slew of new Okeetees, and wanted to show this one off! W/C male, pretty old now, but still very pretty. Nothing more to add about locality, just got clobbered on the cornsnake.com forums!

 

[elrojo]

The Original Rhett Butler!

I bought a slew of new Okeetees, and wanted to show this one off! W/C male, pretty old now, but still very pretty. Nothing more to add about locality, just got clobbered on the cornsnake.com forums!

 

[Darin Chappell]

That is a truly beautiful animal, Chip! Do you use him for breeding?

 

[elrojo]

I will this spring!

I just bought out a friend from the area's collection, but already own two of his progeny from different mothers. He's been in captivity around 12 or 13 years, so I hope I can get a few more good seasons out of him. I'll let you know in August!

 

[Stephen29]

A fan of Okeetees, However.

I am surprized at how serious this subject has become. I am a definite fan of Okeetees. On one side I think it's good that there are individuals out there that are trying to keep the Okeetee bloodlines pure. But on the other side does it really matter all that much?

 

[Stephen29]

Not done.

Contuned. I have several Okeetees in my collection. Some are standard Okeetees and others are het for Hypo. But by looking at them there is no way you would ever know which one is carring the extra gene for Hypo. i don't even think the best Corn experts out there could even tell them apart. My point being even the very best looking Okeetees out there, could possibly have something extra in it. And what about the new comer to the hobby of cornsnakes. If a kid shows up at a reptile show and wants to get a nice looking Okeetee as his, or her first snake will they even care were it came from. And that it is a "pure Okeetee" as long as it looks good to them, thats really all that matters.