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Outside enclosure for pit vipers

ChuckHurd

ChuckHurd

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By next fall I am hoping to move to a unpopulated area on Sand Mtn, in the great state of AL. One of the things I am planning to do after I am moved is set up an outside "pit" or enclosure for pit vipers. I am only planning to keep regionally collected animals in there. Most likely the snakes I pull from peoples yards and barns. I am thinking about using cinder blocks and sinking the wall 12 inches into the ground and have about 48 inches showing above ground. No gates or doorways. the only way in or out is over the wall. Thinking about making it 20 feet by 20 feet and placing a filtered pond in the center. I have 2 issues that I need to resolve for this plan and i would like input from anyone who has ever set up such an enclosure. first issue, i need some sort of artificial den for the winter months. I do not want to use anything eclectic. i don't want to run the risk of a power outage killing off the snakes outside. what i am thinking is a plastic footlocker, insulated on the top and sides. half inch holes cut in the bottom to allow water to filter out should any make it in. Then digging out an area and placing gravel in the hole, the box on the gravel, then burying the box 18 inches underground. snakes will have access thru a PVC pipe running underground to the box. also planning to put hay inside the box in late fall. The hay should create a little of its own heat over the winter months. Second, looking for an expedient way to feed the collection of snakes inside the pit. I think tossing in couple dozen live mice would get some feed, but many of the mice will dig or climb out. throwing in dead mice, i think the prolific eaters will feast and the more reluctant will starve. I plan to keep fish and fogs in the pond, so the cottonmouths can probably earn a living from the pond. Some coppers may follow suite, but I don't think the timbers will ever assimilate to an aquatic diet. Another thought is day old chicks right out of the egg. no chance of those digging or climbing out, but not sure how difficult it will be to have access to those spring to fall. of course, no feed from about late oct to april. Thank you and look forward to the feedback.


Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
 
Sounds interesting. Just a thought. If you have no door etc... what kind of liability do you face if some idiot climbs in there? At least with a door you would be able to lock it so know one goes in. You might want to see how deep the frost line gets there and try to bury the chest a couple inches deeper than that.

Also since you won't be worry about parasites since they will be outside anyways, you could trap your own mice with live traps and put them in there.
 
Make sure if you do trap wild mice/rats, that #1 you aren't trapping native species that are in trouble, and #2 that there is NO possibilty that they have injested poison from any nearby barns or facilities.
How are you going to clean? Any particular reason to keep a bunch of venomous snakes in an outdoor pit? Will you limit the numbers? Or is it to be more of a temporary holding until you release them into a wild area?
Will the different species co-exist in a small area without issue?
I second the idea of making it a secure pen, rather than a open pit. Idiots will occur everywhere. Plus, you don't want a neighborhood cat or something getting in either.
I'm trying to think of any problems possible so you can address them prior to them occuring.
 
It seems like a fun idea...ive always wanted to do something like this...I think the best way to keep them warm is just to make their habitat as realistic as possible...instead of your man made den idea...how about finding some big hollow logs, i know pits hibernate in those...or getting some bigger rocks and making a little rock section that they can get into the crevices and warm up...If you do want to man make a den, how about digging a large burrow...kind or similar to a rabbit or armadillo hole...so dig it deep, then put a few layers of plywood over top of that but submerged in the ground...then you can layer some hay on top of that and throw a few feet of dirt over that...leave an entrace for them that starts out relatively narrow and then opens up into the bigger den...which you could fill up a little bit with some hay and logs to keep them warm...i think that would be the best idea...watch out with the cottonmouths, its a cool idea, but remember they are really good climbers so the wall has to be climb proof...anyways...those are my thoughts.
 
Neighborhood cats? Slightly OT.

Wolfy-hound said:
Plus, you don't want a neighborhood cat or something getting in either.
Click to expand...

Poetic justice should they fall into the pit. Maybe their irresponsible owners will follow!

Cats KILL, TORTURE, and MAIM wildlife. They have no place outside. If a person cares for the cat they will keep it inside where it will not become road splatter or coyote bait. Yes, I have strong feelings about outdoor cats. And I do have cats!

Too many years working with wildlife and rehabbing herps has shown me this.

Since putting up a privacy fence, live trapping, and a rottweiler, cats are no longer an issue. Our song bird population, gecko's, green anoles, and tarantulas have all made a nice comeback on our acerage.
 
Pit...

Chuck,
The safety issues are a definite concern. I do believe that the stomach contents of cottonmouths have shown more rodents than fish and frogs. This could also vary with locality. Live rodents may elicit a strike response resulting in snakes biting each other.
 
Well, the only way I will follow this thru is if I get the idea place when I move. That will mean no neighbors and a lengthy private driveway. There will be a reasonable security fence around my house, snake building, and rodent building. I may also place another fence inside my yard around the pit if it looks necessary. There will be no opportunity for anyone to accidentally end up in this pit.

I probably will have hollow logs and hides set up, but I do not think they will provide enough heat from Nov to March. Its the middle of Feb now and its 29 here in the city, so I am thinking its probably close to 20 up on the mountain I intend to move to. I will check and test before leaving them out for the winter, but I am fairly sure we will have to have something in ground to keep them above 50 year around. I have been given a couple good ideas and reasoned thru a few more of my own. there will always be fish and frogs at the pond. I will toss in pre killed mice and rats from time to time. I will drop in live mice from time to time. I will also be breeding chickens and drop in live chicks from time to time. I am also going to place bird and squirrel feeders in the pit and one of those auto feeders that people use to attract deer in hopes of luring in some natural prey items. guess it will be trail and error as we go. thanks for the input.

I intend to offer a verity of food to the cottons, not just the fish and frogs. I was just thinking that the fish and frogs will always be there and I know they will take them.

I plan to start with only one pit. The cottons, coppers, and timbers I collect will go in it. I think one will fit my needs for a couple years, but later I plan for at least 2 and maybe 3 depending on how well they work. i wouldn't want more then say 20 snakes in each.


Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
 
Take photos of each step...

Could be useful if changes need to be made later or just to document the project and show features not visible.
 
There are two issues that I see that might be a problem.
1st, from everything I have read and heard it is not a good ides to mix species in a contained area.
2nd, you shout consider some type of top covering for your pit, may I suggest some type of wire mesh, as was mentioned, if a neighboring cat or dog gets into the pit this could result in some type of legal trouble.
Other than these two issues, I think you have a wonderful idea there.
 
there may be some issues with the cottonmouths, that is part of the experimental stage. i dont foresee any problems with coppers and timbers. there is one particular farm that i service each year. they have allowed me to place tin in certain areas to make gathering the snakes easier. its not uncommon for me to lift up a 4 x 8 sheet and find both copperheads and timbers lying under it. as for the dogs and cats, i have no remorse for them is they penetrate my security fence around my yard, then the fence around the pit, then over the pit walls.
 
You should check out the outdoor enclosures Bert Langerwerf built at his facility. There was a good article on how he builds them in a reptile publication a few years ago, I don't remember which but it was probably either reptiles or Vivarium.
His enclosures wouldn't be exactly what you are wanting, but some of his methods might be useful for you. You'll have to consider things like drainage. You don't want rain water to collect inside during heavy periods of rainfall, but you also want the drainage to not provide an avenue of escape either.
Speaking of escape, while admittedly difficult, the possibility does exist that a large timber rattler could escape an open topped enclosure with a 48" wall.
Cinder blocks do offer limited purchase. While they couldn't scale them to a great height, I would say they could manage it for a little ways. A large specimen orienting himself in a corner only needs to get his chin above the edge of the wall to get the leverage to get out.

I also think a door would increase your own safety when entering and exiting the pit. A slight stumble on landing when getting over the wall could leave you on your back amidst 15 venomous snakes.
 
Clay Davenport said:
I also think a door would increase your own safety when entering and exiting the pit. A slight stumble on landing when getting over the wall could leave you on your back amidst 15 venomous snakes.
Click to expand...

That's an aspect that bothered me a bit when I first read the thread- the number of animals. Handling and interaction would obviously be kept pretty well to a minimum regardless, but on occassions when someone has to enter a large enclosure like the one described to interact with the animals, be it feeding or heath inspections- the attention of the handler would be split. The more animals, the more it becomes an uneccessary risk. While manipulating animal A, and keeping an eye on animal B and C what were using the same ground cover and remembering that animal D was spotted over in one corner five feet away and animal E was over by the wall where you came in you've still potentially got 10+ unaccounted for. The more animals involved, the lower the ability of the keeper to control the interaction and, in a captive situation and an enclosed space, even a largeish one, anything more than a few starts to very quickly look like it has the potantial for negative and costly mistakes.
 
I agree completely Seamus. I just didn't elaborate on that aspect. I assumed since he was contemplating the setup those risks were accepted. Things like removing a snake from the pit, even when bagged, would be significantly more difficult when climbing the wall was required.

It does bring to mind an enclosure I saw at some zoo or another. It was 6 or 7 feet tall, by 6 or 7 feet wide, and about 3 feet deep. Fully furnished with many plants, branches, and vines.
In the cage I counted 6 adult green mambas, and there could have easily been more that blended in so well I missed them. All I could think while observing the enclosure was I'd sure hate to be the one who had to clean that cage.

In the pit suggested I'd probably consider adding elevated walkways in such a fashion that they would not provide a means over the wall for the snakes but they would keep me above them more to help minimize the risks while I searched out a particular individual I was looking for.
 
i have thought about the door issue. there are advantages and disadvantages to either system. i just see the door-less option as more secure. one of the alterations i have already decided on is to expand the size to 30 x 30. so in a 30 x 30 i will have a perimeter of about 120 feet. with no more snakes then i plan to house, there will be plenty of area with no snakes when its necessary to hope in. where i am moving is a very sandy soil, thus the name, Sand Mtn. It does not hold water very well at all. i know people who attempted to build a pond and couldn't. I think it would take Noah's flood to be a problem in a 30 x 30 set up. i have never seen any pit viper that could climb worth a flip. i am not too worried about any making it over the wall, but 2 things on that point. 1 if they are big enough to scale a 4 foot wall, someone (maybe me) is going to want that snake immediately, so it will never go into purgatory. it will go into my building or someone's. and 2, i am only going to house snakes from that region in there....so if by some act God or ill luck one makes it out, he is just going right back where he came from. Nothing like the mambas that Andrew was suppose to have scattered all over south FL.



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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
 
you're not planning on considering these "part of a collection" are you? more or less, it's going to be like mr. haas' setup in florida, isn't it?

i was under the impression that it would kind of be self sustaining except that you'd give them food since hunting would be limited.

either way, i'd love to see it. you could put a horseshoe pit in it and call it the most dangerous game of horseshoes in the world and maybe make it on the late show
 
Hey Ricky, you are right on the money. The snakes kept outdoors will not be considered part of "my" collection. I want to keep them as close to wild as possible but still in a controlled environment where they can be found when needed. when all phases of this project are completed, i will be tagging these snakes with the electronic ID chip. we can scan them and know immediately exactly where they came from and the date they came out of the wild. If for some reason we ever needed to, we can return these snakes back to the wild and we will be returning the off spring back to areas near where they come from, but far enough away to limit human contact. i am several years away from completion, but this is an ideal project for that swamp you and i were talking about. If someone could get something like this up and going immediately, we could stock it with cottons from that swamp that is drying up and then populate those more isolated swamps with babies. in 2003, i saw 3 to 4 cottons every time i went to Wheeler, last 3 times i have taken someone there to show it off, we have not seen 1 snake, cotton or otherwise. i hate to see that. more people that claim to love these animals need to get active in making sure they survive outside of the slide racks.


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Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
 
ChuckHurd said:
If for some reason we ever needed to, we can return these snakes back to the wild and we will be returning the off spring back to areas near where they come from, but far enough away to limit human contact. i am several years away from completion, but this is an ideal project for that swamp you and i were talking about. If someone could get something like this up and going immediately, we could stock it with cottons from that swamp that is drying up and then populate those more isolated swamps with babies.
Click to expand...

Without looking for the specific state laws, that's probably illegal... definitely illegal most places.
 
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