snakegetters
Aunty Venom
So how many is too many?
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Poll: How many hots do you keep?
- Thread starter snakegetters
- Start date
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
Like with any other animal, too many is the point after which they get less than stellar care. Given the individual schedules of each person owning hots, the number will vary widely but will tend to be slightly lower than the number of similarly sized nonvenomous species the same person could keep, simply because a little more time and attention is needed when performing cleaning and maintenence. The numbers may also be deceptive based on the remainder of a person's collection- someone with more many nonvenomous species does have to give them at least a little of their time and effort.
So the emotional answer is of course... There is never too many. When you find yourself unable to fill water dishes fast enough, hire a staff and keep growing. The practical answer puts a finite limit on individuals of course, it's just not as much fun to contemplate.
So the emotional answer is of course... There is never too many. When you find yourself unable to fill water dishes fast enough, hire a staff and keep growing. The practical answer puts a finite limit on individuals of course, it's just not as much fun to contemplate.
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
Excellent observations. I don't necessarily agree that it takes longer to do routine cage maintenance on venomous species however.
My mambas take just a few seconds to hook and tail into a safety bin, my kings get shut into a trap box, and the small viper rack system is set up so that the snake gets hooked into the next clean drawer while I clean the one it was in. That's even faster than tailing mambas into the trash can. I can hook a snake and move it to a clean cage in the same amount of time it would take to reach in and move a nonvenomous snake by hand.
I do not keep any nonvenomous species, but hauling something like a python out of its cage to clean it up would be more work and take longer than hooking a viper into the next drawer in a rack. Or a nasty Asian rat snake for that matter. Give me a Gaboon to move a few feet on the hook any day. Now that's an easy, quick task as long as appropriate safety precautions are paid attention to.
A few of my snakes are somewhat more challenging to move around for routine maintenance, but I usually set them up with trap boxes so I don't have to chase the ones that tend to hit the floor running when I open the door. That definitely takes a lot more time, but I expect that some nonvenomous snakes do the same thing.
I don't handle nonvenomous snakes any differently as a rule. I like my reflexes the way they are, and I try to minimize my exposure to snake bites of any kind including nonvenomous to avoid increasing the chance of developing an allergy to snake proteins. So a black racer or a coachwhip gets the same hook and tail treatment as a mamba, and frankly the former are a lot harder and more time consuming to handle.
Some people may disagree with me, but I don't feel that handling venomous snakes is intrinsically more difficult as a physical task than handling nonvenomous snakes. In fact many venomous snakes are physically easier to handle than their nearest nonvenomous physical analogues, and I am totally comfortable using a hook like it was an extension of my hand. It's just that the consequences are considerably more serious if you are careless with a venomous snake. I try not to get careless with any snakes at all, as I think it makes for poorer reflexes and habits.
My mambas take just a few seconds to hook and tail into a safety bin, my kings get shut into a trap box, and the small viper rack system is set up so that the snake gets hooked into the next clean drawer while I clean the one it was in. That's even faster than tailing mambas into the trash can. I can hook a snake and move it to a clean cage in the same amount of time it would take to reach in and move a nonvenomous snake by hand.
I do not keep any nonvenomous species, but hauling something like a python out of its cage to clean it up would be more work and take longer than hooking a viper into the next drawer in a rack. Or a nasty Asian rat snake for that matter. Give me a Gaboon to move a few feet on the hook any day. Now that's an easy, quick task as long as appropriate safety precautions are paid attention to.
A few of my snakes are somewhat more challenging to move around for routine maintenance, but I usually set them up with trap boxes so I don't have to chase the ones that tend to hit the floor running when I open the door. That definitely takes a lot more time, but I expect that some nonvenomous snakes do the same thing.
I don't handle nonvenomous snakes any differently as a rule. I like my reflexes the way they are, and I try to minimize my exposure to snake bites of any kind including nonvenomous to avoid increasing the chance of developing an allergy to snake proteins. So a black racer or a coachwhip gets the same hook and tail treatment as a mamba, and frankly the former are a lot harder and more time consuming to handle.
Some people may disagree with me, but I don't feel that handling venomous snakes is intrinsically more difficult as a physical task than handling nonvenomous snakes. In fact many venomous snakes are physically easier to handle than their nearest nonvenomous physical analogues, and I am totally comfortable using a hook like it was an extension of my hand. It's just that the consequences are considerably more serious if you are careless with a venomous snake. I try not to get careless with any snakes at all, as I think it makes for poorer reflexes and habits.
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
What I meant was really more to imply that they have to be handled or special tools need to be utilized in some fashion on a daily basis. You can't simply yank a water dish out or shove your hand in to spot clean. For smaller numbers it's virtually nothing as a time difference... For people who've got a medium or large collection, it can add up to an additional half hour or hour of time just in observing some really basic safety protocols. Of course other species will have their own challenges but as a generalization (thus inherently flawed in specific cases) a given number of hots equalling a certain mass will require a little more time than an identical number and mass of nonvenomous species.
And uh... you may hook ratsnakes... makes some sense given your situation. Most people don't.
And uh... you may hook ratsnakes... makes some sense given your situation. Most people don't.
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
I think that for all practical purposes, how long it takes to clean a cage depends on the snake's personality and how likely it is to bite or to hit the floor running while you are doing cage maintenance. There are venomous snakes that don't give any trouble at all, and nonvenomous snakes that are a time consuming annoyance.
I do spot maintenance inside an inhabited cage with safety tools such as hemostats, gloves, scoops, plastic shields, etc. It only takes a moment to isolate the snake behind a plastic shield and pull the waterbowl by hand, or to use hemostats to lift the waterbowl out of the cage. I'd do the same thing for a nonvenomous snake that was known to be a pain in the ass or a biter. I think anyone would - nobody enjoys being chewed on as part of routine cage maintenance, or chasing escapees around the room.
I guess I'm just so used to the tools that they are a natural extension of my hand. I don't think that it takes any more time to use them than if I was doing maintenance on a nonvenomous snake cage. I worked in a facility where I did cage maintenance on a large number of nonvenomous snakes, and I really did not notice taking any more time in the venomous section. There were a few snakes in both sections that were particularly difficult to work around. The troublemakers in both sections got the same treatment. They did take extra time, especially the pythons. The big dread factor of that job was not any of the venomous snakes, but the %$#@ reticulated pythons that outweighed me, outmuscled me and didn't like me. I would rather catch ten cobras than clean one of those python cages again.
Fortunately most of my long term captives have habituated very well to routine maintenance, and they pretty much tolerate or ignore anything a keeper does. This is not to say that it is a good idea to put bare hands into a venomous snake cage or to get careless with them, but a reasonably calm venomous snake can be isolated behind a plastic shield, or tailed into a bin, or reached around with hemostats in a matter of seconds.
You're probably right in that those extra seconds do add up if you're talking about a hundred or more animals. But they'll add up just as quickly if you have enough nonvenomous "troublemakers" in the collection. I don't even want to think about how much more time it would take to maintain my snakes if all of my nice tempered long term captives were replaced by nasty retics or Asian rat snakes.
I think that a lot of people who keep hots don't handle them, which is a good thing - they should not be handled just for fun or play. Because of the manner in which I usually end up acquiring animals, I do have to go hands-on with them on a frequent basis during their veterinary treatment. Generally by the time they are fully rehabilitated, they are also well accustomed to handling and habituated to keepers working in or around the cage.
Because the consequences of a bite are so serious, it is never a good idea to fully trust a venomous snake even if it appears to be calm and nice tempered. **cough cough Gaboon vipers cough cough** But it's not hard to stay out of strike range using good safety tools and techniques, and once you're used to the routine it becomes pretty quick and automatic.
I do spot maintenance inside an inhabited cage with safety tools such as hemostats, gloves, scoops, plastic shields, etc. It only takes a moment to isolate the snake behind a plastic shield and pull the waterbowl by hand, or to use hemostats to lift the waterbowl out of the cage. I'd do the same thing for a nonvenomous snake that was known to be a pain in the ass or a biter. I think anyone would - nobody enjoys being chewed on as part of routine cage maintenance, or chasing escapees around the room.
I guess I'm just so used to the tools that they are a natural extension of my hand. I don't think that it takes any more time to use them than if I was doing maintenance on a nonvenomous snake cage. I worked in a facility where I did cage maintenance on a large number of nonvenomous snakes, and I really did not notice taking any more time in the venomous section. There were a few snakes in both sections that were particularly difficult to work around. The troublemakers in both sections got the same treatment. They did take extra time, especially the pythons. The big dread factor of that job was not any of the venomous snakes, but the %$#@ reticulated pythons that outweighed me, outmuscled me and didn't like me. I would rather catch ten cobras than clean one of those python cages again.
Fortunately most of my long term captives have habituated very well to routine maintenance, and they pretty much tolerate or ignore anything a keeper does. This is not to say that it is a good idea to put bare hands into a venomous snake cage or to get careless with them, but a reasonably calm venomous snake can be isolated behind a plastic shield, or tailed into a bin, or reached around with hemostats in a matter of seconds.
You're probably right in that those extra seconds do add up if you're talking about a hundred or more animals. But they'll add up just as quickly if you have enough nonvenomous "troublemakers" in the collection. I don't even want to think about how much more time it would take to maintain my snakes if all of my nice tempered long term captives were replaced by nasty retics or Asian rat snakes.
I think that a lot of people who keep hots don't handle them, which is a good thing - they should not be handled just for fun or play. Because of the manner in which I usually end up acquiring animals, I do have to go hands-on with them on a frequent basis during their veterinary treatment. Generally by the time they are fully rehabilitated, they are also well accustomed to handling and habituated to keepers working in or around the cage.
Because the consequences of a bite are so serious, it is never a good idea to fully trust a venomous snake even if it appears to be calm and nice tempered. **cough cough Gaboon vipers cough cough** But it's not hard to stay out of strike range using good safety tools and techniques, and once you're used to the routine it becomes pretty quick and automatic.
Mustangrde1
Sistrurus Motel "Welcome"
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Pre Frances 53 post frances 59 more baby moccs born durring the storm...
Tanith want any CBB Florida Moccs?
Tanith want any CBB Florida Moccs?
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
No thanks, I have a batch cooking myself that I don't know what to do with. Raise them for the venom line probably.
Karen Hulvey
New member
I have a friend who has large burmese pythons. He actually uses a snow shovel to "spot clean" his cages.
I can clean all my sand boa cages (15) in the time it takes him to clean and change the water in one 10' burmese cage.
I can clean all my sand boa cages (15) in the time it takes him to clean and change the water in one 10' burmese cage.
Karen Hulvey
New member
DOH I just noticed this thread is old, my bad.
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
No worries, a good thread should never die.
SerpenXotics
New member
Personally not to many
I found that to be a tricky question to answer. I personally only keep 4
1.2 indo-chinese spitters
0.1 Canebrake
But I useually have 20+ in my available lists. I of coarse had to vote less than 10. simply because I only keep 4 for myself...
PEACE
Joe Lesh
I found that to be a tricky question to answer. I personally only keep 4
1.2 indo-chinese spitters
0.1 Canebrake
But I useually have 20+ in my available lists. I of coarse had to vote less than 10. simply because I only keep 4 for myself...
PEACE
Joe Lesh
Dan Scolaro
New member
A lot
I keep many venomous species but have yet to be reimbused by Joe from above for that dead coral snake he sold me.
I keep many venomous species but have yet to be reimbused by Joe from above for that dead coral snake he sold me.
high_speed
New member
My husband would kill me if I brought a venemous anything into the house. He doesnt really even want me to get more snakes in general, though im talking him into some different types of burmese
Tim Cole
CLOSED ACCOUNT
Over 50...
I have a large collection(around 200) of venomous and none venomous. I have made shields that fit my tubs to speed cleaning and watering when the snake is in the hide box. I also have trained my Kings to go into the shiftbox at cleaning time. They do this automatically when I open the cage door! I can generally clean a Crotalus cage faster than a Corn Snake because I have to remove the Corn which is not hiding in a box.
I have a large collection(around 200) of venomous and none venomous. I have made shields that fit my tubs to speed cleaning and watering when the snake is in the hide box. I also have trained my Kings to go into the shiftbox at cleaning time. They do this automatically when I open the cage door! I can generally clean a Crotalus cage faster than a Corn Snake because I have to remove the Corn which is not hiding in a box.
Jim O
Careful with that axe...
One if you count Heloderms. Otherwise none.
kiote9
Mental Pause
I don't keep hots. I have 3 boys ages 10-13 and don't want to take any chances with a teenager thinking he could outsmart a snake.
Perhaps in the future I'll change my mind, but for now it is in both the kids and the snakes best interest that I stick with the non-venomous kind!
Perhaps in the future I'll change my mind, but for now it is in both the kids and the snakes best interest that I stick with the non-venomous kind!
ffollett
New member
We don't keep hots but I get to handle them in the field a lot. Our kids know not to touch a snake outside because it could be venomous. Other then the fact that Lori is not into keeping hots at all there is no way I would concider it without a separate snake room dedicated to them with all of the safety precautions in place.
ffollett
New member
I see the date the last post was on but this came up in a new post search for me. go figure. Sorry guys
kiote9
Mental Pause
That is because someone voted on the poll, Fred. Happens all the time. I just wish they would post as well as vote!!!
crotalusadamanteus
Brother Infidel
I only keep hots as rescues, and only the ones that are wild, and indigenous to the area. They are all released back to the wild as fast as possible.
As for the quick change of water, here's a trick. You can make a box from thin plexiglass, with the top open. Use epoxy, and glue a stick as a handle to the bottom. When you need to just change water, or do a quick task inside, just place the box over the snake. It secures the reptile, and you can still keep an eye on it.
This has suited me well for years with rattlesnakes of all sizes. Never had a Mamba, or Cobra though. Both are long and fast, so I don't know if this would work for them.
Ciao,
Rick
As for the quick change of water, here's a trick. You can make a box from thin plexiglass, with the top open. Use epoxy, and glue a stick as a handle to the bottom. When you need to just change water, or do a quick task inside, just place the box over the snake. It secures the reptile, and you can still keep an eye on it.
This has suited me well for years with rattlesnakes of all sizes. Never had a Mamba, or Cobra though. Both are long and fast, so I don't know if this would work for them.
Ciao,
Rick