Questioning the Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassfieds.com

[Lucille]

Tanith, as a relative newcomer I certainly do not claim to have the same kind of knowledge of reptiles and the reptile community as you do; I certainly respect and listen to those who have such experience. But as an ordinary person, I would question the need of having a rule that says we have to obey the law, listing the requirement of no illegally acquired or produced animals, etc.
Am I being naive (maybe I am) thinking that the BOI itself may be the proper venue to stop these practices: if it can be shown that a certain vendor is engaging in illegal traffic, won't the economic impact of exposing such practices do more than a posted plea to obey the law?

 

[ScottsReptiles]

However the petition is not about law enforcement or laws at all.

but.. after the petition is completed.. aren't you going to give it to someone to attempt to get legislation made?

or...

Is this just an lost cause because you will get the signatures then show it to the hackers???

 

[HerpVenue]

Okay there may be some confusion on where I stand.

The venomoid issue.........I do NOT know where I stand.
The back yard haccker venomoid maker..................I do know where I stand. I am AGAINST it.
Proposing new legislation or revising the old ones......................only if done carefully.

What do I mean by only if done carefully?
ALL 50 states including the District of Columbia have their own animal cruelty laws. Go ahead and lobby for better enforcement.
Out of all 50 States there are several whose definition for animal is not provided. Go ahead and lobby for a definition.
Out of all 50 Mississippi has a definition that is "questionable"
Definition of Animal: Any feline, exotic animal, canine, horse, mule, jack or jennet.
Lobby them to make there definition clearer.

The following five states do exempt Reptiles from the animal cruelty laws.
Alabama
Iowa
Kentucky
New Mexico
Pennsylvania.

 

[HerpVenue]

whoops wrong button
anyway

The following five states do exempt Reptiles from the animal cruelty laws.
Alabama
Iowa
Kentucky
New Mexico
Pennsylvania.
Go ahead and lobby them to include reptiles

The following states have FELONY cruelty provisions.
Go ahead and lobby the remaining 8 to get some felony provisions.
Alabama
Arizona
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia
Florida
Georgia
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Vermont
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming



There you go.
No need to make a petition asking for things we already have.
No need to make a petition asking to stop something illegal.
No need to make a petition asking to empower law enforcement officers with powers they already have.
No need to make a petition which would require vets to have the paperwork they are already required to have.

You all want to make petitions. here are a couple
1. Pettition for better enforcement..................................send to all states
2. Petition for definition of animal................................send to states that do not define animal in their laws.
3. Petition to include reptiles in the animal cruelty laws......................send to states that exclude reptiles and states that have questionable definitions.


And lastly here is a link with a summary of ALL the States animal cruelty laws
http://www.api4animals.org/47.htm

 

[HerpVenue]

Originally posted by snakegetters
However the petition is not about law enforcement or laws at all.

Does this mean I was right?
It is nothing more than a publicity stunt and a waste of bandwidth and time.
So I have been typing on this issue for nothing?

 

[bud mierkey]

The discussion is needed

The problem with KS is that their can be no discussion.
You will be banned or your post deleted.
Here we have had 14+ pages of civil thread.
its a good start.
Remember to not make a choice is still a choice.
And the choices kS made have hurt them .
The time has come to put a stop to these guys.
we all know their names.
It can be taken care of and once its out of the way
It will all be a just a bad memory.
rich will decide eventualy but dont push him.

I am for a total raid on these guys with jail terms.

 

[cka]

You'll continue to see venemoids because there is a market for them...I certainly am no legal eagle, but another disclaimer may not be such a bad idea, webslave

Please, no more legislation thats going to have the words "illegal" and "reptiles in it...As a community we need to educate, not legislate (love it)...When you are at a show, take the time to educate folks checking out venomous reptiles...you don't have to make a scene, and don't be a pompass @ss, but dont walk away shaking your head, say something...If you do shows let the promoter know how you feel about venemoids, but remember what a promoters job is (making that $$$) and respect his opinion...

Educate...Educate...EDUCATE...If it's already illegal than use the law for what it's there for...

JMHO I'd like to see the hackers tied to a dental chair and have their eye teeth pull out with pliers, then, I don't know, scrape the tooth socket out with a razor to make sure ALL the root is out...about the same thing the snake goes thru...all for money...no damn good reason for it; NONE

 

[Gregg M]

I do not feel it is a stunt of any kind...... This is a topic that affects all of us keepers, wether our reptiles are hot or not..... I am a supporter of the petition and I feel it is a step in the right direction..... I feel that Garys statements were taken the wrong way and were not ment to be as harsh as they sounded..... Also, The integrity and morals of this site are sound and this is a good source...... With that being said, I know that Tanith, Scott, Gary, Hank Molt, myself and anyone that singed/supports the petition and fully understands what the goals are, will not be gaining anything publicly or otherwise...... People put alot of time, research, and money into this and are asking for nothing in return except the support of the reptile community....

This is for all of us if you look at the big picture..... If you think about it there are some states that dont even allow you to keep a ball python..... That inturn, keeps people from being able to buy and sellers from selling..... Illegaly sold, bought, caught, shipped, and produced animals will be the end of our hobby and all of these are important subjects that any serious herper would be conserned with....

This petition is made to stop the people who kill and mutilate venomous snakes inorder to produce voids..... It is also a way to limmit their way of getting their "product" out to the public..... If there is one thing we can all agree on, it is that no animal should be subject to elective surgery unless it is done by a qualified, traind vetinarian....... I am not a big fan of elective surgery when it comes to animals be cause they are not electing it, but if it must be done, it should be done by someone that is licensed and qualified.....

I hope that this thread did not put a bad taste in anyones mouth about what the real goals are for the petition or the dedicated people involved...... It is nothing more than a step to help keep the hobby we are so passionate about and to protect the animals we love and respect so much......

 

[DThomas]

Gregg M you need to post your full name so your post does not get deleted.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Greg

Not tearing apart you opinion but there issomething that webslave touched on and i did earlier

People put alot of time, research, and money into this and are asking for nothing in return except the support of the reptile community....

This is for all of us if you look at the big picture..... If you think about it there are some states that dont even allow you to keep a ball python..... That inturn, keeps people from being able to buy and sellers from selling..... Illegaly sold, bought, caught, shipped, and produced animals will be the end of our hobby and all of these are important subjects that any serious herper would be conserned with....

This petition is made to stop the people who kill and mutilate venomous snakes inorder to produce voids..... It is also a way to limmit their way of getting their "product" out to the public.....

Now which is more probable to happen here ?
A- the legistaltion to get this passed will be looked at in the form of how much time they will spend debating this and the money it will cost all the taxpayers .

B-They will look at it and then of course PETA will have the grubby hands among it somewhere because we all no PETA lovers visit all of these type sites to gain information to use to BAN what we all love, with this and the backing they have they will turn this into one more reason why no one should own reptiles because if one person knows that this is going on they will more then likely make it a broad spectrum across the board and decide rather then trying to pinpoint one group of people it would be easier yo lobby the legislation to just say NO ONE should own reptiles because of this brutal barbaric practice that is done .

C- They will look at the petition and toss it in file 13 because they themselves could carless what is done to a reptile .

D- they will simply choose to say well if we just ban all reptiles then we will not have to waste money for the time it will take to review this subject and they money wasted would be better wasted on something else .


i think B,C&D would the the most probable to happen as we know the goverment doesnt do anything in a weeks time .They would just assume shoot it down and ban them all then have to spend hours hearing the sides of peta and the keepers & the vets point of view....

I seriously think if the majority think the BOI works then USE it to your advantage come up with documented proof of the garage hacks , post them on the BOI maybe ( just Maybe ) the boi could get a sticky saying something to the sorts of "venomoidS awareness" and the thread could contain the people in the hobby that practice this method of butchery.As many of you have said that support it use your time in a area where people have compassion for the animals and can unite together to weed out the the hacks in the field we all know word of mouth travels like wildfire on a dry field and would be more productive then goingto a place as webslave mentioned would have you backpeddling to try to explain why they shouldnt ban them all

 

[Gregg M]

DThomas,
Thanks, I keep forgetting that....LOL

 

[Darin Chappell]

So far, I've seen some say that this thread is:

A. About the laws
B. Not about the laws
C. About the protection of consumers
D. Not about the protection of consumers
E. About the safety of the snakes
F. Not about the safety of the snakes
G. About the issue of venomoids
H. Not about the issue of venomoids
I. About Rich's character
J. Not about Rich's character

It seems to me that some folks don't know what they are for or against here. However, the title of this thread specifies that it is about questioning the morals and integrity of the BOI and Fauna. That being the case, it seems to me that everyone is now in agreement that the morals and integrity of this site are what they should be. If so, this thread ought to die the death and sink to the bottom of the pile.

The other issues (whatever they REALLY are!) ought to be brought up in threads that actually address them specifically in the forums underwhich they actually belong. The BOI may get the most traffic, and so I understand that it is appealling to want to place things here about which one is highly motivated, but that does not permit people to simply ignore the rules of the board.

Start another thread on the issue(s) elsewhere, if it is that important to you. But leave the BOI for that for which it was intended.

 

[WebSlave]

So what is this thread really all about? Me being a bad guy because Gary Orner does not appreciate my lack of concern for his hot issue? How the BOI is used or supposed to be used? Or about venomoids in general?

If this is not an actual BOI issue, then this thread should really be moved to where it is most appropriate.

 

[Stardust]

Although I am interested in this issue, I agree that this should not be on the BOI.
Please do put it in its proper place, *not HELL* LOL

 

[herpetological]

The tiltle of the thread obviously needs editing or more thought...I think we all know the BOI , it's supporters and Rich can stand the test. Gary may have been a little overzelous but, his heart is in the right place. I personally am a strong supporter of the petition. Not necessarily to get a "law" passed but, to bring the issue into the spotlight. As mentioned "CONSUMER EDUCATION" is the key. Just by bringing the issue into the light it will make a difference. This is not an arguement about who's for or against venomoids... It's about the procedure being conducted by "non-professional" personel and the possible dangers to both the specimen and person's procuring them. It's about cruelty, ethics, morals. Is it really necessary and if it is...is the animals welfare being taken into consideration? Does this belong on the BOI? No... As mentioned this is the highest traffic area. If I had contacted Rich, I would have accepted his answer. From there I would have started a thread in another section that mentioned the proposal. I commend Gary for his enthusiasm however, not the way it was handled. (No offense Gary...You know I support this.) If acceptable a link to this document/information would allow everyone to decide for themselves. Now if this thread was about about a specific person KNOWN to conduct these procedures in this manner, it may have been more appropriate? JMHO

 

[snakegetters]

DThomas,

That is a good point about the proper topic of the thread. As I understand it, the BOI is for posting inquiries about whether an individual or a business is a good guy or a bad guy. I can't read AGF's mind or speak for him, but I *think* he meant to open the question as to whether Rich was a bad guy for not picking up the anti venomoid banner. I don't agree that this complaint has a very good basis, but it does seem to be a good guy-bad guy issue.

Ritchie,

No one person who opposes venomoids can speak for everyone who opposes venomoids. But it is my understanding that the petition is addressed specifically to the owners of reptile marketplaces, asking them to prohibit the sale of illegally altered animals in their space. It is not addressed to legislators.

I don't think the petition is particularly well written. It has some problems and issues in my mind that I think are likely to dilute its purpose. But overall I think it is a positive first step to help our community police itself and maintain responsible, humane standards in our reptile marketplaces. I support it, but I can understand and respect that Rich chooses not to. It isn't his fight.

Policing our own reptile marketplaces voluntarily is a lot better than letting things get so bad that outside legislators see a need to do it for us. I think that is what the petition is about.

 

[Gary O]

So what is this thread really all about? Me being a bad guy because Gary Orner does not appreciate my lack of concern for his hot issue? How the BOI is used or supposed to be used? Or about venomoids in general?

If this is not an actual BOI issue, then this thread should really be moved to where it is most appropriate.

This is a BOI issie IMO.

Let me say again.

Rich
You are not a bad guy in any way. I felt you shoved me and the post to the side as you did not want to be bothered. It would have been nice to say. I have not even read it let me see what I can do.

I found out that your email is acting up on you. This is why you have not responded to the emails. Ok This can happen I know. So no big deal.

I hold the BOI and fauna over any other site out there. You are the big dog! Your site stands for something. I felt the petition was a go after the bad guy type of thing. You are one of FEW webmasters that would look at this and say HELL yeah we support it.

The reason I put this here is because It was an iquiry of the BOI. I am asking WHat does it stand for? Webslave is the BOI and Fauna. Your other name is Rich and you have a name for this. You seperated the two yourself. So when you posted as webslave and said I do not have the time. I felt you didn't even take 2 minutes to look at it.

That is why it is here. That is all. Rich you are a great perosn, and in no way are you kingsnake linke LMAO. I came here just because fauna is not like that site. Fauna stands for something and I was really hit when I was told NO.

I hope you understand what I am saying. I am not attacking you or saying Fauna does not have morals. I mean to say. What does Fauna stand for.

You my friend are not a bad guy in ANY WAY. I wish people would quit saying that. I suck at putting things in words on a forum EVERYONE knows this.

I am Sorry this as been taking the WRONG way.

 

[snakegetters]

I would question the need of having a rule that says we have to obey the law, listing the requirement of no illegally acquired or produced animals, etc.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to. But I have seen too many shady or outright illegal transactions taking place at reptile shows and in other reptile marketplaces (classified ads, etc). If you read the BOI, you've undoubtedly seen some of it too.

The owners of these marketplaces tend to look the other way, saying that it is not their responsibility to police people who are selling reptiles in their space. And they are right to an extent - personally investigating and policing all of your sellers in any marketplace is just not feasible. About the only reasonable thing that marketplace owners can do is to make it very clear that their vendors are not supposed to be doing illegal business. If evidence is shown that this is happening, the offender can be ejected before he gets everyone else into trouble.

If we allow the trend of illegal sales of reptiles at shows and other venues to continue without making any effort at all to say no to them, we make it more likely that outside legislation will get motivated to come in and clean up our mess. So we are encouraging marketplace owners to say no to illegal and inhumane dealings, and to make it clear that vendors who are using their space to profit from the illegal and inhumane abuse of reptiles will be ejected.

Historically too many show organizers and web site owners have "looked the other way" on purpose when illegal business is done on their site. It's not their problem, they claim. We can't enforce the law, so we won't even try, we'll just let people do whatever they want in our marketplaces even if it is illegal and inhumane. That is the specific attitude of tolerance that allows these practices not only to continue but to thrive in our community. I would like to see it mitigated at least to some extent by a less tolerant stance on the part of reptile marketplace owners. No, a marketplace owner cannot investigate and police every transaction. Yes, a marketplace owner *can* make it clear to all of his or her vendors that illegal business will not be tolerated if it is exposed.

Am I being naive (maybe I am) thinking that the BOI itself may be the proper venue to stop these practices: if it can be shown that a certain vendor is engaging in illegal traffic, won't the economic impact of exposing such practices do more than a posted plea to obey the law?

The BOI is an excellent tool, but what is specifically being asked is that the owners of reptile marketplaces pay closer attention to the problem of illegal and inhumane venomoid hacking. It is a real and serious problem in our community.

 

[Gary O]

Also I wanted to add

This has nothing to do with me or my site. The forum was set up that way so it would be esaier to track. If you look at my site you can not see the forum other then in the Petition info area.

Yes it hit me hard the fauna would not go after these hackers. I trully felt Webslave didn't even think twice and said NO. That is how I took it. Did he mean that no. If you can see There is some time between that thread and this one. I did not know Rich's email was down. I thought he was jsut saying I don't have time to deal with them. And passed it off.

I am willing to say forget this and lets focus on the petition or the many GREAT ideas said in this thread. Webslave knows I ask for his ok before posting stuff like this(the Petition). That is just me.

I am fair and very kind. Maybe I was to hard and maybe some took it the wrong way. But no way you look at it The hackers are going to kill this hobby.

There is a post on David Beards site. That someone was attacked by a tiger(I believe) and then their was a law passed that made it illegal to keep any giant snakes(burms, Rocks, Conda) Any large monitors or Gators. You say that the hots will nto hurt the whole hobby. To noneducated people a herp is a herp...................I love the idea on getting the word out on the businesses that do not deal voids. I really do not like the idea of the black list. Cause it tells the people that want them where to go.

I just want us to work together to help OUR hobby. If we do nothing then we only hurt ourselves.........

Thanks guys. And Again I am not upset at anyone in this thread.

I again say I am sorry for the way it went. Maybe I could have worded it better. But I felt I was shoved to the side bey a site I look to for help..............

 

[WebSlave]

One of the reasons I opened up the classified sections to replies to posted ads was to allow everyone the ability to expose any such shady dealings themselves via pointed questions or out and out exposure of the person, methods, or merchandise being offered for sale. Everyone here can do that. If someone sees an ad for something illegal, or even questionable, post a reply directly in that ad pointing it out. Discussions ARE allowed there.

It is going to take someone on the peak of the knowledge curve to know what is going on anyway, so why not put that expertise to work in that manner? I (and possibly my moderators) do not know who is selling illegally altered hots. Nor do we know all of the local laws pertaining to everything that may be offered for sale. Even if it is pointed out to us with the intention of us doing something about it, how do we KNOW that the accuser is actually correct in their claim? I don't have the time to research the law for every instance that might come up, and certainly neither do any of the moderators here.

The BOI is a means for this industry to police itself. I fully expect YOU ALL to use the classifieds in the same manner. Police yourselves! That's exactly why I set up the classifieds that way. If you see something that doesn't look kosher, do something about it yourself. Don't wait for someone else to do it instead, or think that it is someone else's responsibility. If the members here are not willing to take the initiative to call someone out, then why the heck would anyone think WE should pick up that load instead?

Between the BOI and the ability for people to directly question ads and the people posting them, my hoped for intention was for the classifieds here to be a safe harbor for people to buy and sell their animals and merchandise with confidence. But is not something I and the moderators will, nor can, do alone. YOU all have to pitch in and help out.

In short, you will likely get out of this site exactly what you put into it. The choice is yours.