Questioning the Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassfieds.com

[HerpVenue]

I am a busy law maker.


Do I want to enact law A that will reauire the following steps

1
2
3
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5
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and so on.




or will I find an easier way and say POOF
Ban Venomous and Venomoids.
1. Banned gone poof.



another thing.
the shipping petition thing was done on a "Neutral" site
www.petitiononline.com

this "petition" is done where?
and the "forum" for the petition is housed where?
And those counters help what site?
And all the sponsors for reptillian.org are who?


I have always called a spade a spade.

I smell publicity stunt.

 

[ScottsReptiles]

We bash Tim for sending Matt a sick snake.
yes because it is wrong. but we are not asking the government for regulations against it.

We bash the person that sends dead abused animals.
yes because it is wrong. but again we are not asking the federal government to regulate it.

But we will sit back and watch these people hack animals?
actually people bash them too.



we regulate ourselves on the other issue by bashing them and not buying from them and spreading the wrod to boycott them.

why are we all of a sudden going to change our tactics and ask the federal government to do it for us?

I think you misunderstood the point of the petition.. the petition is not to outlaw venomoids.. its to outlaw the unlicensed hacks from doing the 'surgery' in their basement. Since there are no regulations.. there is no way to police this. Not everyone can declaw a cat.. a VET can.. it should be required that VET does the surgery to the snake as well.

 

[ScottsReptiles]

I realize that Rich is very busy and its hard to please every request that is given to him..

but.. to spend so much time and energy on a way to get cheaper shipping.. and not stopping the slaughtering of snakes by untrained hands saying.. oh.. who here said it "I could ask for that information".. no.. people are just doing the work themselves because its cheaper there are no penalities for doing so.. and since they are not the 'popular' type of snake.. nobody seems to care.

I am not against venomoid snakes.. if they are done properly and by professionals... My cat is also completely declawed (front a rear) and both the puppy and the cat are fixed

I think its sad that so many complain about nobody caring about snakes.. but.. if they are not the mass-population-friendly snakes.. they don't care.


Sick...

 

[JungleHabitats]

just my thought and maybe it was touched on

Ok lets say that the reptile world unites ... and a ban/law for the hackers to perform these grousome tasks are passed.

Now we know there is a law that say murder is wrong .. but yet it happens everyday

we know there is a law that says Dont speed .. it happenes everyday
we know there is a waiting period on hand guns .. but people buy them W?out that permit

see where im going just because its a law thats not going to stop the guy that hacks a snake in his living room , basement garage etc ..
its just going to push them deeper into the shadows because when it comes down to it .. who is going to enforce this law?wildlife officers are going to say .. ok instead of makin it illeagal for joe blow to cut.hack a snake to make it a void lets just make them illeagal to own PERIOD then whos going to be smiling then? that means they woulkd have more reasons to bust your door down and slap you in jail for owning a venomous snake then it would to have them go looking for every joe that has a 2x4 wire & rubberbands in his house and say you sir are hacker .I also think you mentioned Tanith ... im not positive but i would think he would be TOTALLY against any venomoid done by joe blow or a world renowned vet its brutal no matter how its done .
Would you want someone putting you to sleep and ripping out all your teeth?to say rich the BOI or fauna is imoral for not saying yeah ill post this petition look at it like this the shipping pettiotn is for uncle sam its for PRIVATE carriers to earn money or more of it . i think that while valant it would do more harm and give more bullets on 100 reasons why they should just outlaw any reptiles

 

[Dragondad]

Gary,
As I posted on your forum as well on this subject. I did sign your petition, I do think it should stop.
What you are doing here though is trying to stronghold Rich into doing what you want him to do. Very wrong way to go about it.
You have said that he put up the petition for shipping, but look at when that petition went up, not right smack dab in the middle of breeding season as well as everything else on Rich' plate.
You can not MAKE someone see your way, they have to research it and decide for themselves and until Rich can do that or even is inclined to do that there is nothing you can do. To hold or question integrity of someone who just does not have the time or may not agree totally with what you believe in is not right.
Integrity is still intact here, and although I believe in your reasoning for the petition I now have to question you and how you are going about getting support.

 

[gila7150]

Gary,
While I share your view on venomoids, I have to agree with the others...this thread is out of line. Rich has to pick his battles and his plate is full right now. I can't fault him for that.

In my opinion, on-line petitions are a "feel good thing" but usually accomplish absolutely nothing.

What would be far more productive IMO would be a blacklist of venomous dealers who also sell venomoids. For many vendors, venomoids make up a very small portion of their business. These businesses may be willing to get out of the venomoid business when their involvement in this practice is made more public. I'm aware of a few businesses that have already gotten out of the venomoid business to avoid the stigma associated with this practice. You could put together a venomoid blacklist on your site. Here's a couple to get you started:

1. Carolina Reptile Exchange
2. Kevin Smith of Oregon
3. Venomoid, Inc
4. Rich Richie
5. Exotic Jungle
6. Justin Mitchum

Of course, it might be better to put a positive spin on it and make a list of venomous dealers who do not deal in venomoids. Basically a "who to buy from" list.
Another thing you could do is contact Hank Molt. He already bans venomoids from the Daytona venomous show but maybe he'll go a step further and ban vendors who are involved in this practice.
If you're going to start a petition start one aimed at banning venomoid sales from some of the larger venomous reptile shows and websites. Make it really difficult for them to sell their herps. This will be far more effective than trying to create legislation that will never be enforced anyway.

A few months ago, I purchased the domain www.venomoid.com in order to block a venomoid dealer from using it. This domain is currently linked to a FAQ on venomoids.

 

[Stardust]

Damn, ex was here visiting kids this week end, let him use my computer.
That is my post above.

 

[Mustangrde1]

You ask for names of these voider and proof.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28577

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8527

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30568

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3968&perpage=5&pagenumber=1

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28819

You wanted it you got it. Now answer me this HOW many of you reported Kevin Smith and this was right here on the BOI.

 

[retic chic]

I am sure that the popularity of the crocodile huter and the venomoid procedure is part of the reason we are asked if our giant pythons have had their venom removed, or their fangs removed.

We choose to maintain an entirely non-venomous collection. I would not consider keeping v'oids. I keep plenty of pictures on the walls of people bitten by venomous snakes, to show people who wonder why we don't keep venomous. There is no glamour in being in intensive care for weeks, if you are so lucky. And the missing fingers would really mess with daily activities.

If you insist on educating the public with venomous snakes, invest your money in good taxidermy. In the long run, it is kinder to the snake, and there is no FAKE about it.

If you are trying to impress the crowd, try adding sword swallowing or fire breathing to your act. At least it will be genuine. Butchering a perfectly good snake in the spirit of showmanship is completely wrong.

Forgive my strong opinion, but the only Cobra or Viper I intend to impress people with will be parked in the garage, they are really nice cars.

I guess we are in a fortunate position, if we want to show someone a venomous snake, we travel a few miles from our front door and visit the densites of croatalus viridis.

I will stick to the giant pythons, as they also have the power and potential to kill. So did the dozens of horses I owned over the years.


There ain't nothing like the REAL thing

If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch
Sheila

 

[retic chic]

...further to my original post...

Having several years of veterinary surgical experience, and owning a boa who underwent surgery to repair a face bitten by a hamster before he was brought to the rescue, I can attest that there is no good medical reason to do this surgery to a venomous snake. The boa was in distress during and after the surgery, and still bears the scars. He is alive and better than he was prior to the surgery (the wound and consequent abcess should have killed him) but he is far from perfect.

It is only my opinion that people considering getting venomoids consider getting something else, like white-lip pythons, or tree boas. No veterinarian should resort to butchering a snake like this. And the person requesting the surgery should have some brains and balls installed.

another 2 cents

Sheila

 

[snakegetters]

Eliminating the cruel practice of amateur garage hacks cutting up snakes for profit is something I care a lot about. My site does sponsor and link to the petition, which I believe can be effective in encouraging show organizers and webmasters to stop giving the snake butchers a place to sell their cruel wares.

But I can't condemn Webslave for saying no to sponsoring the petition. It's a good cause, but there are a lot of good causes out there and no one person can be reasonably expected to take time and energy to support every single one. I don't think it is fair to question his morals or his integrity because he can't commit to this cause. There are a million starving children in the world and I'm sorry but I don't have time to raise funds for each and every one of them. Does that make me a bad or immoral person? No, it just means I only have 24 hours in my day and I'm already working as hard as I can on other things that I think are important causes too.

I play hostess for the venomous forum on this site. Might I ask that a post about the petition be made a sticky there, at least temporarily? That seems like the appropriate place for it in any case, and a reasonable resolution to this thread.

I would also suggest that illegally produced animals should not be sold through Fauna Classifieds. It is difficult to get law enforcement to pay much attention to cases that involve cruelty to rattlesnakes, since most cops would prefer to shoot a snake on sight and they do not believe (or care) that snakes feel pain just the same as cute fuzzy animals. But the fact remains that it is against the law to practice veterinary medicine without a license, and the amateur production of venomoids for profit definitely falls into that legal category.

It really does seem to be in Fauna's best interests to ask that anyone selling venomoids be reasonably prepared to show proof that they are legally produced animals. It would not be pleasant if a "venomoid" was sold through this site that turned out to be a botched amateur job resulting in serious envenomation. The resulting legal hassle would probably take a lot more time and trouble than setting a simple rule for classified advertisers. But I'm not a lawyer, so maybe someone who is would have a better take on the subject.

 

[snakegetters]

Originally posted by ScottsReptiles I am not against venomoid snakes.. if they are done properly and by professionals... My cat is also completely declawed (front a rear) and both the puppy and the cat are fixed

Scott, you have the right to have that opinion. Many people do. However, what the petition asks is that illegally hacked snakes who have had their venom glands cut off by greedy amateurs with tools from Home Depot and no anesthesia or pain medication not be allowed for sale at reptile shows or on web sites run by responsible keepers.

I think that most responsible keepers can support that idea, even if they are not opposed to venomoid surgery when it is performed by a licensed veterinarian with sterile instruments, anesthesia and appropriate drugs.

I'm not exaggerating when I describe the current state of how venomoids are made by garage hackers for sale to the popular market. See for yourself - we're talking about razor blades, wooden planks, modelling clay, soldering irons, nails, rubber bands, steel wire, aquarium pumps and newspaper. Not veterinarians using proper surgical tools and drugs. This is what we would like to see stopped.

http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1.htm - Ray Hoser uses the refrigerator to make snakes too cold to move, then straps them down to a plank with wire and does the cutting while they are fully conscious and sensible to pain.

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/55 - Note the photographs towards the bottom that involve newspaper and modelling clay. The Home Depot tools are mentioned here also.

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoids3.html - Atrocity at Hamburg - adult albino monocled cobra in the trash

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html - Some basic facts about venomoids

 

[WebSlave]

From Gary Orner:

Let me ask you one more thing

Is it the time thing or that you just don't want to deal with this? Nothing comes easy man, you of all people should know this..

Both. Because to deal with it sufficiently and completely will take more time than I have to spare. YOU want me to pick sides in a fight that I really have no need to get involved in. And to be quite frank about it, you are probably heading down a road that will be pocked with land mines of unintended consequences.

You would want the authorities to get involved with the woodshed variety of surgery on venomous snakes to make them into venomoids, right? And your argument is because someone may get one of these improperly done venomoids and wind up with a hot snake instead. Do I understand this so far? And the reason for this is because if someone gets bitten by a supposedly venomoided snake that is really hot, they could die from the consequences. Right? So what is really going to be the difference if someone is bitten by a venomoid that is not, or just plain bitten by a venomous snake, in the eyes of the legislature? You would argue to a legislator that they should propose and sponsor a bill to allow people to only get ex-venomous snakes that are properly fixed by persons with the proper credentials to undertake such a surgical precedure. Is that right?

Well, if you go to legislators with this argument, they will ask you why anyone would want a venomous snake in the first place. Even one which has been "fixed". Actually they will probably not understand why anyone would want ANY snake for any reason at all. So now you maybe get their minds working, and they start wondering how many people out there really have these dangerous creatures in their homes. Certainly that can't be safe for everyone else around them. Heck if there is some emergency and emergency personnel have to enter a residence with a venomoided snake in it, how will THEY know it is really harmless?

So within two drafts of a bill, the whole idea of venomoids has been dropped and the bill will be about venomous snakes, or more likely, any snake that is deemed "dangerous" by the legislator. Which can cover a lot of territory. Some shippers claim that ANY snake is dangerous because of the reaction it can cause in their personnel upon sight. But man that can of worms is NOW opened wide.

You, in a panic, seeing what is going on, go back to this legislator to try to put the cat back into the bag, but I seriously doubt you will be able to come up with any reasonable or plausible reason why ANYONE would need to have a venomous snake. Even one which has been supposedly "fixed". What possible reason do you think you can come up with now that you have this legislator's FULL attention on this issue? THAT is what you will now be fighting against. I worked for the Florida Legislature for close to 8 years. I have seen how these sorts of things work up close. The law you may have helped get created could have nothing at all to do with your original intentions.

Suddenly, now, you have put all keepers of venomous snakes at risk of losing their animals. NOW all of your attentions are going to be focused in fighting AGAINST the bill that you helped get on to the books and heading towards becoming a law. That will certainly keep you busy for a while.

And you ask why I don't want to get involved in something like this? I really didn't have the time to explain all the above to you, but I did it anyway. Now you have posted a thread on the BOI that is on the way to becoming a pissing duel about venomoids, which certainly is not appropriate for this forum. Thank you very much for that....

Quote from Gary Orner:

I did not question Rich but his site. There is a difference but then I can see where you guys got confused.

Oh? Backpedaling from these original quotes, Gary?:

For Rich { Webslave } to say does not have the time is an insult to the Herp keeping community as a whole.

I owe him nothing. This is what the BOI is for isn't it? This will effect everyone. I am a webmaster myself and know that it is not that hard to make a sticky. You bring up the others. Yes I believe a herp community should stand tall together fight for what is right together. Not say I do not want to be bothered.

I read them differently then your later posts are implying.

From Gary Orner:

Sponser the petition(does not cost a dime) and stop illegal voids from being sold here.

Now how exactly do you propose to do that? By closely scrutinizing every ad posted and demanding to have the seller send proof? Tell me how much time that little chore would take. Sorry, but I'm just not going to do it.

I let anyone who wants to the ability to post ads here. It is the responsibility of the people considering doing business with these people to do their own homework about the person and the animals and merchandise they are buying. I am NOT going to be a daddy to them. They need to make educated and rational choices using all the tools available to them in order to do so.

THAT is what the BOI is for. Not your idea about what it should be based on what you want it to do for you.

Do I want animals butchered by untrained personnel? No of course not, but it is not my job to stop it. But who is to say who is trained enough? Not me, and I'm not about to pretend I am qualified to do so in any fashion whatsoever. Is this a 100 percent foolproof procedure, even by the most highly trained people? Beats me, but I doubt it.

Do I want a venomoid myself? Nope, but to each their own. I certainly couldn't tell whether one was truly a venomoid or not, and the testing is not something I would want to undertake. If someone else wants something like that, more power to them.

Do I want a venomous snake myself? Nope, not a chance, but again, to each their own. Taking this further, I believe that for many people, having a deadly venomous snake is probably not a real good idea. But it is not up to me to decide that for anyone else buy myself.

So, based on all of the above, I am NOT inclined to make this site an icon for any side of this issue.

Well, I believe I have spent enough time on this issue now. If I have not answered this all sufficiently, then what remains unanswered will have to remain so. I really am busy, and I will be the one who decides how I will spend what little free choice time I have to spend.

 

[WebSlave]

From Tanith Tyrr:

It really does seem to be in Fauna's best interests to ask that anyone selling venomoids be reasonably prepared to show proof that they are legally produced animals. It would not be pleasant if a "venomoid" was sold through this site that turned out to be a botched amateur job resulting in serious envenomation. The resulting legal hassle would probably take a lot more time and trouble than setting a simple rule for classified advertisers. But I'm not a lawyer, so maybe someone who is would have a better take on the subject.

Tanith - taking this one logical step further, would not it be in my best interests, then to block the offering of sale of ANY venomous animals from this site? Would there really be any difference at all whether the sold animal that envenomated a purchaser was a botched venomoid or a known venomous animal?

Aw heck, do I need to make up yet another disclaimer?

 

[snakegetters]

Re: just my thought and maybe it was touched on

Originally posted by JungleHabitats I also think you mentioned Tanith ... im not positive but i would think he would be TOTALLY against any venomoid done by joe blow or a world renowned vet its brutal no matter how its done .

Er, that's "she". I've been told I have big balls but I always thought they were talking about my snakes. LOL

My personal views and my practical stance on the matter are two different things. I am personally opposed to venomoids because snakes should not have to suffer pain and mutilation because some yahoo doesn't want to bother acquiring the simple skills that are necessary to handle a healthy venomous snake safely. I have deep contempt for anyone who is willing to hurt a snake rather than learn the skills.

I am a little old (well, middle aged) lady with thick glasses and bad knees. I stand about 5' in stocking feet. If I have no trouble doing extensive hands-on work with king cobras and mambas, I think that strong young people have no excuse to mutilate a snake before they can keep it in a locked cage with a shift box. If you are not willing to work hard enough to acquire a little old lady's skill level, leave the venomous snakes at the zoo please.

If for some reason you cannot safely keep venomous snakes in your home, eg if you have small children, just don't do it. A venomoid is *not* a 100% trustworthy alternative, even if it was done by a veterinarian. Ducts can re-fissure even when cauterized or ligated, and the smallest scrap of gland tissue left behind can be enough for an envenomating bite. Again, leave the venomous snakes at the zoo where you and your family can enjoy them in real safety.

Venomoid surgery isn't painless, even when done by a veterinarian who is advanced enough to use post-op pain meds on a reptile. A snake's mouth is remarkably well innervated, just like the mouth of almost any animal. That means it is very rich in nerve ends. Remember the last time you had major dental surgery and how much it hurt, even though the doc gave you pain meds? Now imagine if that dental surgery went a lot deeper than the roots of your teeth. Ouch. Yes, it hurts.

So no, I don't particularly approve of venomoid surgery even when done by a veterinarian. I don't consider "I wanna cool pet cobra" to be sufficient reason to hurt and mutilate a snake. But that's just my personal opinion. You may disagree with it.

My practical stance is that I ask responsible keepers to join me in opposing the creation and sale of illegally made venomoids that are hacked up by amateurs with no pain medication and inappropriate, non sterile tools. I ask that show organizers and webmasters who have reptile classfied ads do not permit the sale of illegally and cruelly butchered snakes. I ask that in the interests of public safety as well as the humane treatment of animals, all venomoids for sale be accompanied by a veterinary certificate as proof that they were operated on legally, humanely and competently.

And I will still think that you totally suck if you buy one, but that's the difference between my personal opinion and my political position.

 

[snakegetters]

Originally posted by WebSlave Tanith - taking this one logical step further, would not it be in my best interests, then to block the offering of sale of ANY venomous animals from this site? Would there really be any difference at all whether the sold animal that envenomated a purchaser was a botched venomoid or a known venomous animal?

That's a good point. Again I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that someone buying a venomous snake is doing so with the full knowledge that it could hurt or kill them. Someone buying a venomoid snake is presumably doing so because they believe it to be harmless. If they are injured by an animal that was advertised on your site as harmless, wouldn't this seem like a much more attractive scenario for a lawsuit?

I understand and respect the fact than you can't police everybody who posts an ad on your site. It's not fair to expect you to do that. But in the interests of humane standards as well as maybe covering your own butt, it might be a good idea to at least make it a rule that illegal snakes including amateur produced venomoids should not be offered for sale. What do you think?

Aw heck, do I need to make up yet another disclaimer?

It probably wouldn't hurt any.

 

[DThomas]

This has degenerated into another venomoid debate that will NEVER be resolved. It really has no place on the BOI and it should be moved to the Venomous Discussion forum.

But since Rich is actively participating in this thread, I will not move it. I await his decision.

 

[snakegetters]

Webslave makes some really excellent points about the problems with getting the authorities involved in legislation about venomoid surgery. I agree with him wholeheartedly - the sequence as he describes it is the most logical and likely.

However the petition is not about law enforcement or laws at all. It is about the reptile community. It addresses people who are providing a marketplace to sell reptiles, like show organizers, web site owners and magazine publishers. It asks that any venomoids sold through these marketplaces be legally, humanely and competently produced by a licensed veterinary surgeon. That's all.

I do understand and respect the problems of enforcement. I do not expect any marketplace provider (like Rich) to personally inspect every animal offered for sale through his classifieds. That is not a fair or reasonable requirement. I do suggest that it is perfectly reasonable to have a rule like "please do not use my marketplace to sell any illegally acquired or produced animals or to sell animals in an illegal way" and to explain that the rule includes:

Ilegally wild collected animals
Illegally sold or shipped animals (eg, without proper permits, venomous snakes to minors or through FedEx, etc)
Illegally produced venomoids (not by a licensed veterinarian)

Sure, people may break the rule and make illegal or unsavory transactions using your marketplace. It simply is not possible to prevent this kind of thing from happening. But at least there is such a rule. And if clear evidence is presented that someone is breaking the rule and using the marketplace to do bad things, then they can be ejected before they get anyone else in trouble.

 

[snakegetters]

Originally posted by DThomas This has degenerated into another venomoid debate that will NEVER be resolved. It really has no place on the BOI and it should be moved to the Venomous Discussion forum.

Technically it's a debate about Fauna and its rules and policies, though of course the discussion is also wandering into the topic of venomoids themselves.

I agree that the original poster doesn't have good grounds to criticize Rich because he won't take a political position on this particular issue. I feel passionately about the subject but I do not think it reflects negatively on Fauna to remain neutral. I can respect Rich's stated reasons for refusing to take a position, and I hope that others in the anti-venomoid camp can do so as well.

But as long as it stays civil and respectful, is it such a bad thing to kick around some ideas about how Fauna might set up its rules and policies (or not) around the issue?

 

[DThomas]

But as long as it stays civil and respectful, is it such a bad thing to kick around some ideas about how Fauna might set up its rules and policies (or not) around the issue?

No, it is not a bad thing, but that is why there is a Feedback Forum. The BOI is for posting experiences good or bad with individuals or businesses and to make inquieries about such businesses or individuals.

I understand the BOI receives the most traffic and as such, a message such as this will get the most exposure. But it is our responsibility as Fauna community members to utilize the appropriate forums and utilize them often. This will, in time, bring the needed traffic to get everyones message out there. But if we do not stop posting the OT messages on the BOI, no one will have any reason to check the other forums, everything will be posted here.