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Questioning the Integrity and Morals of the BOI and FaunaClassfieds.com

Originally posted by WebSlave Between the BOI and the ability for people to directly question ads and the people posting them, my hoped for intention was for the classifieds here to be a safe harbor for people to buy and sell their animals and merchandise with confidence. But is not something I and the moderators will, nor can, do alone. YOU all have to pitch in and help out.

That is fair and reasonable. So assuming that there are enough third party complaints and evidence presented to prove without a doubt that Dealer X is selling illegally/inhumanely hacked snakes, will you continue to allow that person to do his bad business on your site?
 
I like this thread....
a bunch of people disagree with each other and it remains civil.
I am kinda getting giddy about it.

now with that said.

But it is my understanding that the petition is addressed specifically to the owners of reptile marketplaces, asking them to prohibit the sale of illegally altered animals in their space. It is not addressed to legislators.
I beg to differ though

look at number 2 adn 5 of the goals


2. require that any and all of these animals produced after the enactment date of this petition to be "Microchip implanted" so that Law enforcement and Legal Veterinary physicians can monitor these animals for the safety of the keeper and general public at large.
an enactment date of the petition? I did not know a petition can be enacted. I do know that legislation can be enacted.
Also a website will require microchips so that law enforcement can better track the animals? Can websites do that?<---this is really a question and not rhetorical

5. it will empower law enforcement from any agencies that enforce animal laws. This may include but not be limited too The United States Fish and Wildlife Service, State Departments of Natural Resources/ Fish and Game Departments, United States Department of Agriculture, Humane Societies and Local Law enforcement to arrest any person not legally licensed with the American Veterinary Medical Association and or confiscate any and all animals within the possession of these persons.
Websites can't empower anyone.
Only legislative and the judicial and the executive branches of government can empower..... but then again I could be wrong.
 
Ritchie

#2 is as you read it. It is for tracking of these animals. You may be ableto pick out 10 of your own reptiles easily but a vet or officer can not. Ir is a safty issue and way to verify someone is infact having the correct snkae checked not a new one or any other.

#5 You might have read wrong Websites etc arnt in it. Only law enforcement agencies.

This like with many petitions is a hope and prayer. I am not a fool and knew full well if it does recieve the eyes of legestlators the wording maybe changed. Some of it omitted some of it used who knows. It is in its spirit the attempt to try and be proactive to help write laws and get herps included in them for their benifit and protection of our hobby in a whole.

I am willing to listen to all helpful advice on this and have for almost two full years. and because of advice changed my veiws on some things and looked for more ways to be proactive and help the hobby.

Disagreement is great and this is very nice to read and see. If you wish to ask me direct question e-mail me and ill give you my number. im not the best in type and ive always felt oral communication is best. You bring up many very good points and even at this date the petition can be altered to make it even better.

Thank you
 
I agree that the issues here have gotten fairly complex and may no longer fit completely under the scope of the BOI. The original post did fit within that scope however. Whether the thread should be moved is a good question.

I don't think that the appearance of the word "venomoid" in a thread should be grounds for its immediate dismissal from the BOI. Nor do I think that questioning Fauna's policies in a civilized manner should be grounds for censorship. But if there are good and valid reasons that would apply equally if the subject of this thread was neither venomoids nor Fauna, then it is perfectly acceptable to state them and move it.
 
simply put ....

But if there are good and valid reasons that would apply equally if the subject of this thread was neither venomoids nor Fauna, then it is perfectly acceptable to state them and move it

simple answer the BOI is for asking about doing buisness with a person and or letting someone know of a person/s that has mis represented a animal or not sent the animal/s or simply ripped someone offby not sending what a person/s paid for or by misrepresenting a animal and sending a dead / sick snake or not making good on the TOS they sell by .Therefore this thread questioning the "Intergrity of the BOI & Rich" by not posting information in which Rich has stated that he doesnt have time to deal with and somehwat doesnt have a interest to him then this thread quailfies to be moved from the BOI i think the Appropriate forums would be "Venomous" forums being the subject mater of the thread eals with venomous snakes and hacks that perform the jobs on them .If the party that started this thread wishes to bring forth Proof of the person/s that deal with with venomoids and has proof that they have sent a sick / dead animal , misrepresented a animal or has stolen a persons monies ( that person being the thread starter ) as i am pretty sure that the rules for posting in the confines of the BOI state that NO third party posting is allowed and will be subject to deletion. This would mean that in order for the party to post about a deal gone bad they would need to be the person wronged by the party/parties they are posting about . If i am wrong on the rules for posting within the confines of the BOI then i apologize in advance.
 
I don't see how much good it would do to create a sticky link to the petition. The people who need to be visiting the petition and seeing the v'oid links are the non-herpers who have no compassion for reptiles in general. Those people are the ones who need convincing--not the people who already love reptiles. I have to say that while well-intentioned, this petition isn't going to accomplish anything, because, well, it's just another online petition. If you want to bring attention to the issue, you should be visiting schools, giving talks, demonstrations, and working to dispell the general public's fear of reptiles. To me, that's time better spent than waiting around for someone else's hate mail to flood in.

AGF: Here's a suggestion though... since you carry the petition link in your signature, this gives you another reason to post on every forum on Fauna. :D

Great discusson, everybody. I'm deeply impressed with everyone's insight and only wish I could keep up with you guys.
 
That is fair and reasonable. So assuming that there are enough third party complaints and evidence presented to prove without a doubt that Dealer X is selling illegally/inhumanely hacked snakes, will you continue to allow that person to do his bad business on your site?

Actually this is a rather complex question to answer. Not sure I can give it the time it deserves for an answer, but let me take a stab at a short answer and hope it suffices.

Short answer: Yes.

Short explanation: From the beginning, I have made it a point to try to avoid acting in the capacity of a judge in matters that are presented on the BOI. I feel people can post all the information they feel is pertinent, and then it is up to the readers themselves to make their own decisions about what is going on. To be consistent, I feel this should be extended as well to cover those items listed on the classifeds. Of course, this is all based on extrapolation of how I have handled things here in the past, but I make no claims to know what is BEST to do. All of this is only my gut feeling and hope that it is the best course to take.

As a for instance, I have been asked that if I were presented with indisputable proof that something someone had posted on the BOI was a lie, would I delete it? The answer has always been "no". When threatened with legal action if I do not remove something posted on the BOI, my response has always been that if provided with a court order to do so, based on real judge's determination of the facts presented by both parties, then yes I would delete such a post. I believe to be consistent, I would have to extend this same policy to such issues that would crop up within the classifieds sections.

Although in many ways I try to run this site in a democratic manner (51 percent of the majority should be followed), such cannot always be the case in all things. In those respects, this site would act more as a constitutional republic, in that decisions, somtimes at odds with a majority, would be governed by the "constitution" which created this site, or in reality, the rules that were made after the fact to keep it fair and even handed in pursuit of its original goals. Or at least as much as is possible. The reason for this is that there is no natural law that says a majority will always be right, something the founding fathers of our country fully recognized when they wrangled the US Constitution into life.

Now if someone were selling something patently illegal, where the actual offering of sale of the item is illegal, then yes, I believe I would have no recourse but to stop such actions. But is the actual sale of a venomoid done in an illegal manner illegal itself? I don't know, but I doubt it. Is it illegal for someone to BUY a venomoid from someone who did the surgery illegally? Again, I don't know, but I doubt it. In such a case, I would have no legal grounds to block such an action, now would I? Already there are offers of venomous animals for sale on this site. Are all the sellers legally licensed to own those animals? Are they all going to people who are legally able to possess them? I don't know, and I really can't see any feasible to determine that. Heck, how many corn snakes are sold to people who live within states where they can't legally own them? Is it my responsibility to determine that as well? There are wild caught animals being sold which may have been collected and kept in very inhumane conditions before being offered for sale. Should I take a stand and block them as well? Or suppose some pet shop who habitually tells its customers to feed crickets to corn snakes wants to buy from someone advertising on this site. Shouldn't I block that too?

Exactly which part on that slippery slope should I place my foot first?

I took a look at the classified ads of my local newspaper yesterday morning and saw several ads selling guns. Now there are some people which it is actually illegal to sell guns to knowingly. But is the newspaper going to get into the middle of every transaction like that? No, certainly not. And in like respect, neither should I with the ads posted here. Would I be incensed if that local newspaper decided to just not run any gun ads, because of the chance of abuse, or even just because the owners just happen to not like guns? Darn tootin I would! I wouldn't like anyone filtering such things from me based on some ethical platform they have climbed up on, forcing upon me their views of what they think is best for me. I am an adult and like to make my own decisions, thank you. Just let me have access to all of the information, and I'll take it from there.

So in a similar vein, thinking along those lines, how can I possibly justify taking a position where I would block ads on this site based on some ethical position, no matter how right it may be to many people, and how many may support it, without being a hypocrite? Where exactly is that line that will divide fairly the complete freedom for people to post their legal ads, from where I become a tyrant who blocks ads based on whatever ethical platform happens to be in vogue today? I And once I cross that line, where exactly do I stop? What will be next on the list?

Gee, glad I didn't give you a LONG answer...... :)
 
Come on Rich, what do you really think?

On the serious side, the classifieds are open to comment.

If someone sees something they object to being sold they have simply to speak up.

If the thread is closed be creative. Find the same snakes for sale that have not been operated on and post them for good sellers. You venomous guys need to get the word out about Fauna.

As Rich said, it's up to us to do something about it.

Much like ryans red leopard gecko, we as a whole community have to take part in this if we, and I'm using the big all inclusive we here, want to do something about ILLEGAL voiding.

It's no ONE man's job to do this. No matter how BIG his site is.
 
Rich THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Your last few posts mean a lot. and ansers my question. Fauna does have very high morals. Letting us police ourselves here is great. I did not know we could point out them on their ads. I thought I would be banned by doing so.

You answered my question and if you like you can change the title to this thread. I am sorry it went this far but this also shows we can all talk in a civil manner. I thank you for this. No one is this world is perfect. Also If you feel the ned to move the thread too. You have 100% of my backing. i will not say two things about it.

This means a lot to me Rich. I know it means a lot to many people.

See just because the first post or titile to a thread "questions" something does nto mean the outcome is bad. I believe the BOI worked great yet again. IMHO.


Thank you again.
Gary E Orner
 
wilomn said:
Come on Rich, what do you really think?

On the serious side, the classifieds are open to comment.

If someone sees something they object to being sold they have simply to speak up.

If the thread is closed be creative. Find the same snakes for sale that have not been operated on and post them for good sellers. You venomous guys need to get the word out about Fauna.

As Rich said, it's up to us to do something about it.

Much like ryans red leopard gecko, we as a whole community have to take part in this if we, and I'm using the big all inclusive we here, want to do something about ILLEGAL voiding.

It's no ONE man's job to do this. No matter how BIG his site is.

Oh believe me when I say this. Sense Rich gave the ok to point them out. I will be telling everyone about Fauna. Like it needs me to tell people though lol
 
Rich,

I can respect that view and I understand that the slope is a very slippery one indeed. As long as it remains acceptable on Fauna to post evidence of "bad guy" behavior as a response to classified ads, then I think it's a good working system that is everyone's responsibility to help maintain.
 
I did not know we could point out them on their ads. I thought I would be banned by doing so.
oh dude have at it.

much consideration and discussion came about before he opened up the classifieds for other people's comments (if I am remembering correctly)

actually if I remember correctly I voted against it.
I voted to keep it closed because an ad can, unintentionally, become its very own little BOI.
I told him people can just post on the BOI and then post a link to the ad.


now I must remind you though.
once the ad has been pointed out.........I believe I can no longer lock it down so that the person whom placed the ad won't be able to delete it.
So make sure to also take a screen shot of the ad in question.
That way if they delete it you have the proof. Also make sure to post it on the boi with the screen shot and not just the link. (they might erase it and the link will no longer work)
 
Hmm, I thought for sure I was going to be wearing cajun style underwear after my last post...... Not that it would have changed anything, but being truthful can be risky at times. :)

There was a discussion a while back in the FaunaClassieds Feedback Forum (yes, this is a REAL feedback forum where you can actually post publicly. ;) ) when I first decided to open up the classified ads sections to replies:

Allowing replies to classified ads thread

I faced this issue then and have not changed my opinion from that time, although, of course, not everyone agreed with my decision.

Someone being banned for replying to ads and engaging someone in a conversation right in the classifieds sections? Not on THIS site!

If you post an ad and try to sell something on this site, I feel it is only fair that you be prepared to be FULLY scrutinized by the public. If someone doesn't like this and has reason to fear such scrutiny, then please, go elsewhere. I do believe this is a system that will be self regulating and self healing when "sores" do appear from time to time.

As long as I own this site, it will be as fair as I can possibly make it to everyone. Which means I will sometimes have to even give the verifiable bad guys the benefit of the doubt sometimes. Sorry about that, but I don't know of any other way to do this and still be able to claim I am fair.
 
Actually Rich, you don't have to be fair about anything at all. It's your site and you are free to do with it as you will, just like jeffie is on his site.

But, the fact that you go out of your way to be fair because it is the RIGHT thing to do is one of the main reasons that there were so many people jumping to your defense when this thread was started.

Integrity is really hard to find and yet you seem to posess it in abundance.

Wes Pollock
 
Amazing...one of the few threads where intelligent debate was the "norm"..Even if this thread were moved it is a good example for the direction and manner any thread should take. Some of us may disagree or be on different sides of an issue however, we can still come together as a community and come up with OUR OWN solutions to "police" ourselves. In regards to the petition....As imperfect as it may be it is still a useful tool to get the message out. Should it be changed? Well, as more people view it and give their personal imput, it will undeniably evolve and change. Nothings perfect "out of the gate". My hats off to everyone that responded to this thread...(I hate when I do that it reminds me that i'm getting older every time I take my hat off!! Yeah, i'm starting to loose my hair too!! LOL's!!)
 
I as well did not know about posting to the classifieds. Thanks for pointing it out. To be clear on it does it pretty much work the way of the BOI where you can post experiance or knowldge of the person?

Ray when you take bows hold the hat on then. bullseye. But your correct the petition can be changed and reworded so long as it stays on its origninal goals. I have said what seams a million times its for the reptiles and all input is welcome and always has been.
 
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