Receiving dead snake!

[hhmoore]

As I indicated in my first post - we can't really say much if you aren't going to detail the specifics...How were the snakes packaged (only the box that contained the DOA)?

 

[johnnydance]

Thanks Lucille and Harold,
I didn't mean to say that I wouldn't care, obviously, if I didn't care I wouldn't have paid for the any of them. The shipper did say that he couldn't guarantee it because of temps and, as I stated earlier, I don't really blame him if the cold temps were the cause of death. It just doesn't make sense that "NO" ILL AFFECTS ON THE OTHER SNAKES (2 out of 3 shipped)? The 2 in the one box couldn't have been more than 3/4 inches apart. I would accept that one was weaker than the other or maybe that there was an underlying illness that the seller didn't know about. But if it were the later then.....

 

[hhmoore]

Well, if you don't care enough to provide an answer, I'm done playing on this thread. Hope you figure it out.

 

[Lucille]

It just doesn't make sense that "NO" ILL AFFECTS ON THE OTHER SNAKES

You don't know that there are no ill effects with the other snakes. They are alive, but they may have been affected in ways that are not apparent.
Unless you get further facts by having a necropsy done, it may just be that one snake had a more difficult time in transit, especially if temps dipped. If you have ever read accounts of people who have been stranded in cold waters in a boating accident or whatnot, sometimes one succumbs to the cold and dies, and the others live.

 

[johnnydance]

I thought that I had given the specifics of the packaging? Maybe not, but if not, the box was lined with approx. 1" styrofoam, any empty space was filled with shredded paper, the snakes were in snake bags (separately), and the two snakes were separated by a piece of styrofoam (approx 1/2"), 1 heat pack per space (because there was styro in between them) placed about 2-4 inches away from the BP's surrounded by the shredded paper. So no contact from the BP's to the heat pack. One hole was punctured in the box for ventilation.
I hope that this describes the situation of the container to your needs Harold?
Thanks

 

[snakesRkewl]

Shredded paper in a shipping box blocks the heat from the snakes.
We use fiber filling from pillows that allow the heat to transfer all throughout the box, works awesome and prevents cold spots in the box.

We've shipped from the west coast to the east coast where it was down to 35 degrees and had snakes show up toasty warm, it sounds to me like something may have happened to that box other than temperature.

I also believe if the shipper was willing to ship given the temps then it's on him, even if the buyer asked for it to be shipped.
A seller should put their foot down if they don't feel comfortable with shipping in cold temps and not ship.

 

[Lucille]

Shredded paper in a shipping box blocks the heat from the snakes.
We use fiber filling from pillows that allow the heat to transfer all throughout the box, works awesome and prevents cold spots in the box.

We've shipped from the west coast to the east coast where it was down to 35 degrees and had snakes show up toasty warm, it sounds to me like something may have happened to that box other than temperature.

I also believe if the shipper was willing to ship given the temps then it's on him, even if the buyer asked for it to be shipped.
A seller should put their foot down if they don't feel comfortable with shipping in cold temps and not ship.

I'm not completely understanding what you are saying. On the one hand you say that your are thinking that the problem may not have been temps, on the other hand you are saying that you believe the seller is on the hook because he shipped in low temps.

 

[snakesRkewl]

I'm saying the issue may not have been cold temps at all, the snakes including the dead one showed up warm.
Maybe the package was dropped and the dead one took a bad fall while the other one was cushioned better and survived.
That of course wouldn't be the sellers fault.

My comment on the temps was only directed at the sellers TOS saying he'd ship but not be responsible for the package do to cold weather.
If the seller had reservations about the weather they shouldn't ship the package even if the buyer asked for it to be sent.

 

[jack2682]

Hey John,

Sorry about the DOA. Just my 2 cents here... There are so many variables that we will never know here in terms of what that box went through during shipping. As Lucille said, observing that the other snake appeared ok, doesn't mean that temp wasn't a factor in the other snakes death.

If the snake was weak or sick from some condition we don't know about, the temps during shipment more than likely played a role. I think its really difficult to draw a line in this case and say... Either the snake was sick and dying before it was shipped OR it died because of the cold during shipment.

 

[Shadera]

I haven't heard that - but I will say that a lack of ventilation can cause heat packs to fail. I say "can" because I have been receiving snake shipments for a lot of years...and they don't always fail under seemingly identical conditions. I've received a lot of "dead" heat packs that warmed up again after arrival.

Definitely. They need oxygen to be able to work.

Here's a link that mentions what I'm talking about. There are more out there.
http://www.pangeareptile.com/store/40-hour-heat-pack.html

5. IF THE TEMPERATURE IN THE SHIPPING BOX IS ALLOW TO FALL BELOW 32 DEGREES (FREEZING POINT), THE HEAT PACK MAY CEASE TO WORK BECAUSE WATER, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MAIN INGREDIENTS OF THE HEAT PACK, MAY BECOME FROZEN.

If the heat pack was near any spot allowing freezing air in, it could happen.

 

[johnnydance]

Thanks Jerry and Jack for your added information!
I appreciate all of your input!! I try to see things from all points of view and like a few mentioned before, it could have been a number of factors that caused this to happen including cold temps. I hope that the seller will be kind enough to possibly send me something in place of this DOA? I know that he had mentioned that he didn't have any hatchling's at this time, so maybe he will send me a high white Calico to replace the DOA/ the cash that I spent, when he does. Finger's crossed!!!!!!
Thanks again everyone for your point of view and information!
John

 

[Lucille]

so maybe he will send me a high white Calico to replace the DOA/ the cash that I spent,

Or maybe he will stand on his TOS which you say you were aware of. Should he have shipped? Probably not. Were you aware and then gave the go-ahead, and are you experienced? Yes.
If it was the cold that was the cause of death,(is a necropsy going to be done?) you both gambled and lost, now all that is left is to see who besides the snake pays for the gamble.

I'd certainly like to hear his point of view, but then it would be a BOI thread, not a discussion.

 

[SpitZu]

As for shipping temps, you must keep in mind that a heat pack is not going to keep a package at 75 degrees for the entire trip. A heat pack will keep the interior of the package a certain amount above ambient temperature, but as that drops so does the temp inside the box. If it's in the 30s on the ground, it's going to be even colder than that in the cargo compartment of a plane at 30,000 feet.
I've never tested it but I've read reports that a heat pack will raise the temperature in the box anywhere from 8 to 15 degrees. Even at 15 degrees, that's not much if the ambient is 20-25.

I believe the temps @ 30000ft are well below 0 and I don't think any amount of heat packs would combat those temps. If the planes weren't temperature controlled I don't see how shipping would even be possible.

According to SYR:

The cargo areas FedEx uses to carry ShipYourReptiles shipments are pressurized, and their temperatures are kept between 55 and 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[ClarkT]

A couple things come to mind for me.
Where was the hole pinched in the box? If there were 2 separate compartments along with 2 separate heat packs, did each compartment/heat pack have ventilation? If not, I would suspect a possible suffocation, not necessarily temps. The heat packs use oxygen, too.

 

[FireStorm]

I personally wouldn't ship if I thought I couldn't guarantee live arrival, no matter how much a buyer wants me to. However, I think if the seller told you up front that they wouldn't guarantee live arrival because of the temps and you told them to ship anyway, then the seller is off the hook.

 

[johnnydance]

Great piece of information to have Adam!!!
Clark, I'm not sure if both compartments had a hole punched in it. I'll have to check on that, but also a helpful piece of information to have! I didn't think about the heat pack using Oxygen?
Shelly I did ask the shipper to ship and explained the temps of the area ( I didn't beg, but I did ask him to ship). With that said, Adam stated that the temps in the cargo hold of FedEx is of suitable temps. I have had numerous deliveries during the cold winters in the N.E. and have never had a DOA before. This is why I brought this discussion up. Again, I'm not blaming the shipper (nobody can really tell me, without a necropsy, what actually killed the BP). This is more so a "need to know" basis for future deliveries.
Please don't think that I believe that all people/breeders are horrible, This is the first time for me and I wanted more info. on the subject!
Thank you all for participating in this discussion.
John

 

[FireStorm]

I don't think it matters if you begged the seller to ship or not, my point was that you knew the terms, and you accepted them, whether they seem fair now or not. My advice to you would be to read each seller's TOS carefully before you make a purchase. Make sure you are ok with the terms. IMO, sellers can put whatever restrictions on their guarantee that they want, as long as they are up front about it. Keep in mind that DOAs can happen no matter what the weather is (shipments can be delayed, mishandled, delivered to the wrong address, etc). If you are not comfortable assuming the risk of a shipment, buy from someone with a live arrival guarantee. For me, I won't buy from someone who doesn't offer one. I've even passed on purchases because the seller said they would offer a live arrival guarantee unless there was a carrier delay. What kind of rubs me the wrong way is this:

Thanks Jerry and Jack for your added information!
I appreciate all of your input!! I try to see things from all points of view and like a few mentioned before, it could have been a number of factors that caused this to happen including cold temps. I hope that the seller will be kind enough to possibly send me something in place of this DOA? I know that he had mentioned that he didn't have any hatchling's at this time, so maybe he will send me a high white Calico to replace the DOA/ the cash that I spent, when he does. Finger's crossed!!!!!!
Thanks again everyone for your point of view and information!
John

Why should the seller be out $$$ now, when he told you about the guarantee (or lack of one) up front? And if he sends you a hatchling to replace it, he's still essentially out money, since he could have sold it to someone else. I'm not trying to pick on you, so I hope you don't take it that way, but you asked for opinions and that's mine...

 

[johnnydance]

Shelly,
I see your point of view, but as I said before, I have received numerous shipment in like temps and have NEVER received a DOA...EVER and that includes hatchlings! And, yes, DOA's can happen for a variety of reasons, which I think I have mentioned, to some degree, earlier in this discussion! As you have stated, it doesn't matter what season it is, DOA's can occur! I never disputed that in any reply! Also, I have been told by other breeders that they WILL NOT ship due to weather/temps and have complied with their terms and waited 3 months or more for delivery.
This rubs me the wrong way (your quote):
Why should the seller be out $$$ now, when he told you about the guarantee (or lack of one) up front? And if he sends you a hatchling to replace it, he's still essentially out money, since he could have sold it to someone else.
OK, I didn't state that I'm entitled to this or that he better do this!!!! I only stated that it would be kind of him to do so!!!!!! Don't take things out of context or make it sound like I said something that I didn't say!!!
To answer Clark's question: There was only one hole in the box, but the styro that separated the 2 compartments didn't go all the way up to the top, so it should have fed both areas with oxygen.

 

[Fangthane]

I only stated that it would be kind of him to do so!!!!!!

Let's be blunt. From the way I see it, the seller chose to ship them at a time that he obviously felt would be dangerous for the snakes; hence the temperature stipulation in his TOS. As such, I think that it could easily be construed as a situation where the act of making the sale was the most important consideration; not the snakes' safety or leaving the buyer with any degree of recourse. With that in mind, it's pretty counterintuitive to think that such a person is going to take any kind of loss when he can simply choose to adhere to the terms that you agreed to. If you were dealing with someone that was inclined to accept any culpability for the situation, you wouldn't have had to start this thread in the first place.

As far as I can see, you only have two options: either grin and bear it, or have a necropsy performed in an attempt to prove that temperature wasn't the cause of death. Neither of which are likely to be of any real benefit to you. It sucks that the snake died because it's welfare wasn't the foremost consideration of anyone involved. It also sucks that you chose to put yourself in a position where this exact scenario could come about. However, you wanted your new snakes now, and the seller wanted that payment now. You rolled the dice and it ended up coming back to bite you on the ass. Continuing to complain about it isn't likely to change any of that. What it all really amounts to is a very unfortunate and expensive lesson learned. If someone is offering to ship something that they're not willing to guarantee, either wait it out or take your business elsewhere.

 

[johnnydance]

Hi Dan,
I guess I can accept your explanation on that!
Thanks to everyone who commented and gave some good advise. This was truly a learning experience, albeit not a happy ending, but we all learn something new every day. I hope that I get to do business with all of you (hopefully during late spring or late summer).
Thanks,
John