cahrens
Addicted
I think you've answered your own question here. If they had gotten cold and 1 died during the night, and then had warmed up during the morning, the survivor would be acting normally. It's another possibility.
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Receiving dead snake!
- Thread starter johnnydance
- Start date
I think you've answered your own question here. If they had gotten cold and 1 died during the night, and then had warmed up during the morning, the survivor would be acting normally. It's another possibility.
johnnydance
New member
From what I can tell, there are way too many variables to determine anything!
Although, with what one member has explained (and it hasn't been verified by me, yet!), SYR(FedEx) keeps a temp controlled environment for these specific deliveries. If this information is correct, then the heat packs shouldn't have failed/froze. On the other hand, apparently as explained by another member, heat packs can fail for a variety of reasons (again, this has not been verified by myself and I haven't, personally, run into this issue before).
I do want to reiterate that I am not blaming anyone specifically, I wanted to know others' experiences on this subject as to educate myself further on this issue so that it doesn't happen again!
Thanks again for everyone's input!
Happy Herping!
Although, with what one member has explained (and it hasn't been verified by me, yet!), SYR(FedEx) keeps a temp controlled environment for these specific deliveries. If this information is correct, then the heat packs shouldn't have failed/froze. On the other hand, apparently as explained by another member, heat packs can fail for a variety of reasons (again, this has not been verified by myself and I haven't, personally, run into this issue before).
I do want to reiterate that I am not blaming anyone specifically, I wanted to know others' experiences on this subject as to educate myself further on this issue so that it doesn't happen again!
Thanks again for everyone's input!
Happy Herping!
Shadera
Wayward Python Wet Nurse
The warehouses and the trucks those are picked up on or delivered on aren't always temp controlled though. My FedEx delivery driver has one of the older trucks that doesn't have a temp controlled cargo area. I don't know where that might necessarily fit in here, but the boxes aren't always temp controlled from origin to final destination.
Did you get the necropsy done, by chance?
johnnydance
New member
Hi Shadera,
No, I haven't had it done. Unfortunately, after speaking with some herper's in my general vacinity, they don't know of any reptile specialist in my area??? If anyone knows of any in my area, that would be helpful?? Fortunately, I haven't had any major health issues with any of my balls or boas!!!!! Nothing that I couldn't take care of with a temp/humidity change in their enclosures.
I didn't think that the warehouses/(some)trucks were temp controlled. Although, I do keep an eye on the tracking several times a day during the course of delivery, so as to see if the package is being held up at a certain facility. It has only happened 2, maybe 3 times, in all of my deliveries and I have always called the facility to check on it, with the result being a successful delivery with no ill affects. One exception to that would be that I drove to the nearest (not that near) facility to pick up the package, because they missed the truck, due to a hold up in NJ.
Thank you for the input!
No, I haven't had it done. Unfortunately, after speaking with some herper's in my general vacinity, they don't know of any reptile specialist in my area??? If anyone knows of any in my area, that would be helpful?? Fortunately, I haven't had any major health issues with any of my balls or boas!!!!! Nothing that I couldn't take care of with a temp/humidity change in their enclosures.
I didn't think that the warehouses/(some)trucks were temp controlled. Although, I do keep an eye on the tracking several times a day during the course of delivery, so as to see if the package is being held up at a certain facility. It has only happened 2, maybe 3 times, in all of my deliveries and I have always called the facility to check on it, with the result being a successful delivery with no ill affects. One exception to that would be that I drove to the nearest (not that near) facility to pick up the package, because they missed the truck, due to a hold up in NJ.
Thank you for the input!
johnnydance
New member
There was one detail that I forgot to mention at the beginning of this thread!
When I opened the shipping box, containing the 2 BP's, the inside of the styrofoam walls and top were "wet" and the packing paper was damp(not wet).
This is a detail that I shared with the breeder the day they were received. He asked if they defecated in the bags or if the box was wet on the outside, but they hadn't and the box was dry on the outside, which is what I told him. He then said it could have formed from the temperature change from the plane to the outdoor temp. which kind of made sense at the time. This was all discussed on the phone.
I just met with a breeder that I purchased from today and told him about the incident with the delivery as well as the wet walls and damp paper. He said that these things do happen, but was baffled by the wet interior? He then mentioned another possibility... he said that if the snake died before shipping and was frozen immediately and then placed in the box with the heat pack it could have thawed out during shipping and hence the higher level of humidity in the box??????
I hate to make an accusation like this and this cannot be proven by me or anyone else unless they were there at the time of packing, but again I'm looking for answers!
Here's the Question: Has anyone ever run into a situation where the styrofoam was wet on the inside and damp paper without defecation??? To clarify, when I say wet walls, what I mean is, when I went inside the box to recover the BP's my hand rubbed against the walls leaving my hands wet with water.
Thanks!
When I opened the shipping box, containing the 2 BP's, the inside of the styrofoam walls and top were "wet" and the packing paper was damp(not wet).
This is a detail that I shared with the breeder the day they were received. He asked if they defecated in the bags or if the box was wet on the outside, but they hadn't and the box was dry on the outside, which is what I told him. He then said it could have formed from the temperature change from the plane to the outdoor temp. which kind of made sense at the time. This was all discussed on the phone.
I just met with a breeder that I purchased from today and told him about the incident with the delivery as well as the wet walls and damp paper. He said that these things do happen, but was baffled by the wet interior? He then mentioned another possibility... he said that if the snake died before shipping and was frozen immediately and then placed in the box with the heat pack it could have thawed out during shipping and hence the higher level of humidity in the box??????
I hate to make an accusation like this and this cannot be proven by me or anyone else unless they were there at the time of packing, but again I'm looking for answers!
Here's the Question: Has anyone ever run into a situation where the styrofoam was wet on the inside and damp paper without defecation??? To clarify, when I say wet walls, what I mean is, when I went inside the box to recover the BP's my hand rubbed against the walls leaving my hands wet with water.
Thanks!
Montoya
New member
John, sorry for your loss of the snake. Personally, I feel the bag would have been wet if that occured. I wouldn't call the breeders reputation into question if there is nothing to back it up. If the breeder communicated the no live arrival because of temperatures than you must accept it. I think someone eluded to the possibility that one side may have had ventilation and the other didn't which seems more plausable since a divider was used. The snakes that lived, did they have the hole poked in their side or was it the other way?
Sending dead snakes has I'm sure been done in the past by questionable sellers. You've been asked time and again if you were going to have a necropsy done. I am no expert but I would think that a vet with expertise might be able to venture an opinion on whether the snake had been frozen based on a necropsy.
You seem as if you really are not going to stop questioning until you get an answer, so why not go ahead and have the necropsy done?
http://www.nhvdl.unh.edu
I do not know whether the above does necropsies but it is about 90 minutes from you.
I do not know whether the above does necropsies but it is about 90 minutes from you.
Not reading this whole thread lol. But I hope you are qting those animals! Could have died from an illness..
ShadowAceD
Lagniappe Exotics
Had the animal died, been frozen, then sent to you and thawed (highly unlikely it would have completely thawed given the temperatures in your area and in Memphis and in the air), it would have smelled absolutely awful by the time it got to you. There are also other things that likely would present that you have not brought up, so I doubt that is the case.
The high level of humidity is likely not humidity at all. It's likely condensation that came simply from excessive air managing to get into the box while in the air plane before being reintroduced to warmer air on the ground, in a facility and in the truck.
The shipper should not have agreed to ship and you never should have asked for them to be in the temperatures in your area. Is waiting another month or so for an animal really worth risking their life just because you have done it before with success? My opinion on that is a big fat "No". The shipper owes you nothing and at this point, with your coming up with these types of conspiracy theories, I am sensing buyer's remorse in that you regret asking for the animal to be shipped when you did.
It is unfortunate the animal died and I feel sorry for it, but that was the choice you and the shipper made and a life ended because of it. Was it linked to the cold? Cannot know for sure without a necropsy, but without one, it would have to be assumed that was the case. The other one could have survived out of sheer luck or just because it is a stronger animal. That is how it works sometimes. These animals are much more fragile than I think we tend to realize.
The longer you wait, the less accurate the necropsy can be for certain things, just so you know.
Also, did the animal reach rigor mortis with you, was it in it in the box or did it never reach it at all?
The high level of humidity is likely not humidity at all. It's likely condensation that came simply from excessive air managing to get into the box while in the air plane before being reintroduced to warmer air on the ground, in a facility and in the truck.
The shipper should not have agreed to ship and you never should have asked for them to be in the temperatures in your area. Is waiting another month or so for an animal really worth risking their life just because you have done it before with success? My opinion on that is a big fat "No". The shipper owes you nothing and at this point, with your coming up with these types of conspiracy theories, I am sensing buyer's remorse in that you regret asking for the animal to be shipped when you did.
It is unfortunate the animal died and I feel sorry for it, but that was the choice you and the shipper made and a life ended because of it. Was it linked to the cold? Cannot know for sure without a necropsy, but without one, it would have to be assumed that was the case. The other one could have survived out of sheer luck or just because it is a stronger animal. That is how it works sometimes. These animals are much more fragile than I think we tend to realize.
The longer you wait, the less accurate the necropsy can be for certain things, just so you know.
Also, did the animal reach rigor mortis with you, was it in it in the box or did it never reach it at all?
johnnydance
New member
I will try and address all of your replies, but it kind of gets confusing!
Craig, There was one ventilation hole piercing through the box and styro, the divider only went up 3/4 of the way, so I'm assuming that the vent supplied both areas with air?
Lucille, Thanks for the website! I looked it up and it is almost 90 minutes to the T! I will call them when I get home to see if it's too late to have it done and the cost?
Thanks again!
John, I am and always have quarantined new arrivals for about 6 months.
Diem, Your condensation theory sounds solid enough for me. As far as rigor mortis ... it seemed to be partially in rigor mortis, if that's even possible. I held her in my hand and although it did move, more so the head area, the body was fairly stiff. I hope that I explained it enough.
Just to make this clear, I am not purposely accusing the breeder of doing this, I am only putting out there what someone said "could" be possible, not that it actually happened! And, as explained by others in the last few replies, not likely to have happened!
The information I have received from all of you was enlightening, thank you all.
I think that this will be my last reply! I am satisfied with all of your explanations! Thanks again and have a great New Year!!
John
Craig, There was one ventilation hole piercing through the box and styro, the divider only went up 3/4 of the way, so I'm assuming that the vent supplied both areas with air?
Lucille, Thanks for the website! I looked it up and it is almost 90 minutes to the T! I will call them when I get home to see if it's too late to have it done and the cost?
Thanks again!
John, I am and always have quarantined new arrivals for about 6 months.
Diem, Your condensation theory sounds solid enough for me. As far as rigor mortis ... it seemed to be partially in rigor mortis, if that's even possible. I held her in my hand and although it did move, more so the head area, the body was fairly stiff. I hope that I explained it enough.
Just to make this clear, I am not purposely accusing the breeder of doing this, I am only putting out there what someone said "could" be possible, not that it actually happened! And, as explained by others in the last few replies, not likely to have happened!
The information I have received from all of you was enlightening, thank you all.
I think that this will be my last reply! I am satisfied with all of your explanations! Thanks again and have a great New Year!!
John
ShadowAceD
Lagniappe Exotics
She was likely just leaving rigor then, which generally takes 12 hours to enter and leave, but with the presence of heat or cold it could accelerate or decline. So, the poor thing certainly died in the box, likely soon after leaving Memphis on a plan, but I have to speculate on that.
I wanted to back this up, I shipped a boa that died in transit back in '01 or '02 (due to failed heat pack) and had the person freeze it then ship it back to me overnight, when it arrived here it was already decomposing, smelly and mushy (I could still see the pattern though to identify it was the snake I sent out). just fyi
andrew_snake_sale
New member
i need advise about my dead boa
hi please help me....
on 3/27/13 we bought a male full grown boa from a reptile shop in NH
he was in a rack/big bin on newspaper, with no water and 2 pest strips (enough to treat 2,500 sq feet), for 600$ ($400 cash and they too our ETB in trade ($200)
they told us he was on live large rats
, he was in shed and past the bluish eyes,with visable shedding/peeling and they told us when we get home soak him in warm water, they said we could even leave him in the water over night
when we got him home we put him in a 40 breeder for quarenteen and soaked him in about an inch in a half of water for about an hour ( we repeated this for the next 2 days.)
we put him on newspaper, with a waterbowl. (for quarenteen)
he was very hissy, and in shed. he seamed to be uncomfortable and refused to eat. we tried live rats, stunned rats and f/t rats.
we soaked him again but this time we put a hand towel down under him and on top of him (not covering his head) in warm water. he kept trying to submerge his head?
we did help him shed when we soaed him in the water with the wet hand towels because he was having issues shedding. and after5 we put him back in the tank on newspaper. later we noticed he had blac mars on parts of his underside. (thining it was friom the print on the newspaper)
we did let the reptile shop know 2ce that he was having these issues and what we were doing for them. they told us that he may just be stressed and to give him time.. he refused another meal
on friday 4/5/13 we went to NY to visit a friend and when we returned on sunday 4/7/13 HE WAS DEAD!!!!!!
we were devistated, he looked horrible and had brownish patches on him? we did not know what to do so we froze him.
today 4/8/13 i called a vet in NH and planned on going to get an in house narcropsy done. i contacted the reptile shop and told them that he died and that we were going to bring him in to the vet to get the narcropsy done. they said they would get back to me and a few min later they told me NOT to drop him off to the vet and told me to bring him there (to the shop)
not feeling really comfortable with this , i did agree and drove there with the snake.
on the way there i called 3 people/friends that are into reptiles and all said that nothing that we did could have killed him, and their hunch was that he was sick when we got him not even 2 weeks ago..
when i got to the shop they took the snakke upstairs and said that we killed the snakke by "pre shedding him"????
i said i would still bring him to get the narcropsy done and he said that i could if i wanted to but it would be a waste of my money because he died because of the shed!!!!
they said that they would get back to us in a few days so they could see what they could come up with.
honestly i dont really want another snake from them at this point.
this is the 2nd time that we had an issue with a reptile there, the last was when we bought a $350 red and white tegu and also bought everything that they reccomended to feed him (including calcium!!!, from day one was not eating much and i went back every week or so to the reptile shop and talked with them, then bought what they suggested, all with no results.... tegus should eat!!!! so i had a vet visit with another pet and decided to bring him in also. turned out he had pinworms and flagalids.
i immediately went inm to the store with him and told them about the vets findings and they said he looks ok and that is normal for reptiles to have parasites, and they do not reinburse for vet bills.upset i called the shop the next day and an employee told me to bring him in that they would either give me a store credit or give us another animal.
the next day i drove up there and handed him to the employee that i spoke to the night before. he said oh he is in rough shape (they said it could be a calcium deficiency) and they could not take him back. they said we probably did not have the tank hot enough. and i felt like they were blaming this on us!!!! i told them that if they think that than they should take him in and at least get him better!!! i left upset.
that night i got a phone call from the employee saying that he was doing sooooo much better. i asked if he had eaten and how they got him to eat, they said that they havent fed him they just stablized him....
we spoke about some sort of return and they offered a partial credit, at this point we just took the partial credit......
please give us your feedback as to why the sunglow boa died after only having it for under 2 weeks....
and what do you thin is a fair thing for them to do...
i want a full refund but because we had traded our ETB and gave them $400 cash we would like our ETB back and the $400 cash too
what are your thoughts
the shop is only offering us a suriname something that we are not interested in.
and keep trying to place the blame of the sunglows death!!!!
im very upset and need some helpful advise on how to solve this problem
hi please help me....
on 3/27/13 we bought a male full grown boa from a reptile shop in NH
he was in a rack/big bin on newspaper, with no water and 2 pest strips (enough to treat 2,500 sq feet), for 600$ ($400 cash and they too our ETB in trade ($200)
they told us he was on live large rats
, he was in shed and past the bluish eyes,with visable shedding/peeling and they told us when we get home soak him in warm water, they said we could even leave him in the water over nightwhen we got him home we put him in a 40 breeder for quarenteen and soaked him in about an inch in a half of water for about an hour ( we repeated this for the next 2 days.)
we put him on newspaper, with a waterbowl. (for quarenteen)
he was very hissy, and in shed. he seamed to be uncomfortable and refused to eat. we tried live rats, stunned rats and f/t rats.
we soaked him again but this time we put a hand towel down under him and on top of him (not covering his head) in warm water. he kept trying to submerge his head?
we did help him shed when we soaed him in the water with the wet hand towels because he was having issues shedding. and after5 we put him back in the tank on newspaper. later we noticed he had blac mars on parts of his underside. (thining it was friom the print on the newspaper)
we did let the reptile shop know 2ce that he was having these issues and what we were doing for them. they told us that he may just be stressed and to give him time.. he refused another meal
on friday 4/5/13 we went to NY to visit a friend and when we returned on sunday 4/7/13 HE WAS DEAD!!!!!!
we were devistated, he looked horrible and had brownish patches on him? we did not know what to do so we froze him.
today 4/8/13 i called a vet in NH and planned on going to get an in house narcropsy done. i contacted the reptile shop and told them that he died and that we were going to bring him in to the vet to get the narcropsy done. they said they would get back to me and a few min later they told me NOT to drop him off to the vet and told me to bring him there (to the shop)
not feeling really comfortable with this , i did agree and drove there with the snake.
on the way there i called 3 people/friends that are into reptiles and all said that nothing that we did could have killed him, and their hunch was that he was sick when we got him not even 2 weeks ago..
when i got to the shop they took the snakke upstairs and said that we killed the snakke by "pre shedding him"????
i said i would still bring him to get the narcropsy done and he said that i could if i wanted to but it would be a waste of my money because he died because of the shed!!!!
they said that they would get back to us in a few days so they could see what they could come up with.
honestly i dont really want another snake from them at this point.
this is the 2nd time that we had an issue with a reptile there, the last was when we bought a $350 red and white tegu and also bought everything that they reccomended to feed him (including calcium!!!, from day one was not eating much and i went back every week or so to the reptile shop and talked with them, then bought what they suggested, all with no results.... tegus should eat!!!! so i had a vet visit with another pet and decided to bring him in also. turned out he had pinworms and flagalids.
i immediately went inm to the store with him and told them about the vets findings and they said he looks ok and that is normal for reptiles to have parasites, and they do not reinburse for vet bills.upset i called the shop the next day and an employee told me to bring him in that they would either give me a store credit or give us another animal.
the next day i drove up there and handed him to the employee that i spoke to the night before. he said oh he is in rough shape (they said it could be a calcium deficiency) and they could not take him back. they said we probably did not have the tank hot enough. and i felt like they were blaming this on us!!!! i told them that if they think that than they should take him in and at least get him better!!! i left upset.
that night i got a phone call from the employee saying that he was doing sooooo much better. i asked if he had eaten and how they got him to eat, they said that they havent fed him they just stablized him....
we spoke about some sort of return and they offered a partial credit, at this point we just took the partial credit......
please give us your feedback as to why the sunglow boa died after only having it for under 2 weeks....
and what do you thin is a fair thing for them to do...
i want a full refund but because we had traded our ETB and gave them $400 cash we would like our ETB back and the $400 cash too
what are your thoughts
the shop is only offering us a suriname something that we are not interested in.
and keep trying to place the blame of the sunglows death!!!!
im very upset and need some helpful advise on how to solve this problem
johnnydance
New member
Hey Andrew,
What shop? Where?
Thanks!
What shop? Where?
Thanks!
Pre-shedding - yeah, I don't know your experience with snakes but - when you said the snake was having issues shedding, how long had it tried to get it's shed off, had it even started yet? How many days after the eyes were blue did you do this? Did you let the eyes clear up first?
The pest strips in use at the shop would also concern me.
So, did you end up taking it in for necropsy? That part wasn't clear.
that info would belong the BOI.
Andrew, please do not post the name of the shop in this thread.
If you want to make a report about the shop, do so here:http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13
and please review the sticky with the rules for posting there as well.
thank you.
The pest strips in use at the shop would also concern me.
So, did you end up taking it in for necropsy? That part wasn't clear.
that info would belong the BOI.
Andrew, please do not post the name of the shop in this thread.
If you want to make a report about the shop, do so here:http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13
and please review the sticky with the rules for posting there as well.
thank you.
NIGRO51
New member
Why on earth would you try to aquire an animal that you saw was in such bad conditions???? And pay that kid of money for it??
cahrens
Addicted
When an animal is purchased in person, it's generally an "as is where is" guarantee, unless, of course, something more is expressly guaranteed before hand. If the store decides to do something about it, that's cool. If not, you're kinda out of luck, again, unless there was some sort of extended guarantee laid out beforehand. You may want to find a different source for your reptiles as you're 0 for 2 there.