Reptile Show Ethics???

[Kisha]

Hi all, I am new to this forum and have had a great time reading all the interesting posts.

I am a hobbiest breeder, nothing big just 1 breeding pair of BD. I have been traveling to the reptile shows in my area this year and have noticed a disturbing dichotomy. All shows have a standard table fee, but some shows allow people to pay an entry fee and bring along their own animals to the show for "Trade" purposes. I guess the idea is that someone might have an animal that a vendor might want to trade. Fine, but what I have seen at these shows is people comming in with random snakes over their shoulder, just to show them off. One case in particular a woman had a large rainbow boa with a raging upper respiratory infection. The thing was sneezing all over peoples tables and nobody said anything! Even more bothersome was the group of young girls toting around a bucket of bearded dragons with signs tapped to their backs that read "ask us about our dragons, $85 each" These girls hung out at the show for at least 2 hours, cruising the crowd. I don't know if they sold any, but why should I pay a table fee if I could just pay an entry fee, bring a bucket of lizards and work the crowd? (I would never do this, BTW, I feel it is unethical). There were many more people doing this, these were just 2 examples. I asked the people in charge what was up with all these off the street vendors? The reply was, "we don't usually get this many", but nothing was done. I was really fed up when a giant fat man with 3 adult dragons in a box labled FOR SALE stood opposite my table for 20 min. Thats when I decided I would not come back.

I come from the southwest, land of the IRBA shows. Outside animals are never allowed into the shows. I expected the same when I moved to the other side of the country. I've learned that the industry over here is VERY different than what I'm used to.

What I would like to know is, why do people bother to go to shows like this? With the risks of disease and off the street competition the way it is, I don't think I will go back. I'll stick to the shows that do not allow animals in off the street.

I did not want to mention the shows in particular, some of them have rather good reputations. I am just looking for some oppinions (I'm sure I'll get some good ones

Thanks for listening!
(sorry for any spelling errors, i'm not a child, just a poor speller!)
Kisha

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Kisha.... first of all.... WELCOME TO THE BOARD!!

Your scenario is getting all too familiar at shows.... unfortunately, it's the promoter's option to let them in, or not.... the only way to stop this from happening, is to get together with the other vendors at the show and voice your complaints.... I would also INDIVIDUALLY email the promoter telling them of your concern.... Your example of the Rainbow Boa with the RI is a GREAT reason for not letting "outsiders" in the show.... I can understand the promoter allowing people to bring in ONE animal to possibly trade.... but a BOX FULL??? I don't think so! As far as the guy with the box of Beardies that was "hanging out" next to your table.... Personally, I would have kicked his ass out of that spot SO FAST, his head would spin!! That's despicable!.... It's not fair to the vendor's who paid good money for their table fees, transportation, food, lodging, and extra help at the show!
I would ABSOLUTELY voice my ANGER to the promoter, and tell him you will NOT be back if this is allowed.... if ALL the vendor's did that.... I GUARANTEE YOU he will change his tune!
Good luck....

....Neil

 

[Kisha]

Thanks for the welcome, Neil

Any ideas how I can contact the vendors that go to this show, would it be bad form to post a "who goes to this show" request? I would like to persue this matter, as it is one of the biggest most popular shows in my area. I would like to change some of the questionable herp practices that I have noticed on this side of the country.

Not all the shows are this way, several are VERY good and I will continue to attend them as a vendor as long as I have critters to sell.

BTW, I do give care sheets and customer support to all who buy from me at shows! Hope this helps in building a name for myself!

Thanks
Kisha

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Kisha.... posting it would be a good thing.... but, if you want to post it on the BOI (where it belongs), you will HAVE TO mention the name of the show.... something like....

PROBLEM WITH THE "XXXX" SHOW.... WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

You can say it any way you want, but, you'll have to mention their name on the BOI part of this site....

....Neil

 

[Kisha]

Thanks, I think I will post on the BOI. Look for it later, I have to clean cages right now. Nasty job, but someone has to
do it....Just kidding, I acutally kind of enjoy it!!!

Happy herping!
Kisha

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Kisha.... I own a retail herp shop.... I know ALL ABOUT IT!! Most people call me "Beulah", cause all they ever see me doing, is CLEANING!....

It's those ankle stockings that drive ME crazy! Do they come in size 10??.... lmao

....Neil

 

[Pennebaker]

Definitely voice your concerns loud and clear to the promoters--remember, they are losing out on table money also when someone comes in with a bucket and a sign instead of buying a table.
I personally do not like the idea of the public bringing in animals period (I am from the soutwest too!), but especially not animals for sale. That should be enforced. I am sure that most if not all of the other vendors feel the same way. Try to remember names, contact the promoter to ask names, post her, collect cards, etc etc...whatever you can do to discuss this matter and get something done about it.
Good luck!
Dana

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Sorry but this sounds like a typical case of ‘I have gotta be in control liberalism’ to me. If a promoter chooses to have a show that allows in healthy animals from the "street" as you put it, then whom are you to complain about this rule if you decided to vend at this show in the first place. As opposed to attempting to push your desires onto everyone else, I believe, you should simply have chosen not to have attended this show. It seems to me rather tardy and somewhat pontificate of you to raise this ruckus after the fact. As to sickly animals, if someone indeed had such an ill reptile at the show as the Rainbow Boa described, it would have been much more appropriate to voice a complaint at that time. That complaint should have been made directly to the promoter or his agent at the show. For no one else to have made such a complaint also seems rather unusual to me in light of the fact that vendors at the show had their own herps for sale, and because as a group we herpers all seem very ready to complain about such things. A complaint or complaints should be made against anyone with an obviously sick herp at a herp show; this goes for vendors with obviously sick animals as well as for people who came to the show just to show off or sell a animal or a few (and who were not registered vendors). Of course, someone vending sickly animals may not want to voice a complaint during the show lest that complaint come back around and be aimed at their own animals. (I am not implying that this means you; but I have seen vendors after a show bitching and moaning about such practices and saying, after the fact, the animals off of the street were obviously sick. Of course, that was once there own sickly animals were put away so the promoter would not notice them.)

As far as people selling reptiles they brought with them into the show (when they appear healthy) - if the promoter allows it - what is the problem? If you had inquired beforehand, you would have been aware of this practice. You may not like this happening, but if it is an accepted practice at a show, then so be it. Sure you can form a crusade of vendors to stamp out what you apparently believe to be this ignominious practice; however, you could just as easily choose to either accept it and continue attending this show, or move elsewhere. This type of practice will certainly not wipe out your customer base if indeed you are a reputable vendor with healthy/quality animals for sale at a fair price. It may ad a bit of short lived competition though, that is most assuredly destined to be just that – short lived. Besides that – how many people do you think attend these shows as buyers who are willing to buy from what amounts to no more than a vagabond street vendor. The great majority of buyers I have seen prefer to buy from someone with a table, who has been at the same show over and over again in the past; someone with a good reputation. I have paid my money to sell without worrying about what a thin man (or was it a fat man - pun intended - pun reference to the movie classic The Thin Man) brings in off of the street in a box (as long as they appear healthy).

Now if bringing in animals off of the street was a violation of show rules, that is another story. There are plenty of shows on this side of the country (THE OTHER SIDE - is what I believe you called it) wherein animals are not allowed inside unless they are for sale by registered vendors at the show. When I have attended shows in the past, I often have seen vendors complain to the promoter when the rules have not been followed or when something endangers their animals such as thieves or people bringing in animals from the outside. For the most part, animals from the outside are not allowed into shows; however, if a show allows them in and you do not like it - why complain and ruin it for those who want to bring in animals. In fact why bother going to that show if it pisses you off so much. If you do decide to go, well then why ruin it for those who want to bring in a healthy animal to sell. If that practice is so despicable, or if the competition is too much for you, and if you can find enough of the others who use this site to agree with you, then what next? Will sites such as faunaclassifieds.com become your next crusade? Will you all band together, contact the webmaster at this site as a group, and complain to him that only paid advertisers be allowed to post animals for sale on this site. That does not seem to far fetched to me, as I read the posts in this thread!

 

[Kisha]

Whoa, Glenn, easy big fella

I'm glad to have your oppinion, but lay off the crusade business. The reason I posted was to find out if I even had a right to be annoyed. I'm not looking to change someones show outright. I don't like the policy, and have already decided not to go back to this show. Being rather new to the reptile show circut I wondered if I was the only person who felt this way, thats all. I did complain to the organizers of this event, but to no avail. The policy is not well outlined to new vendors, had I known I wouldn't have driven 2hours and paid $35 for a table.

I also wouln't be so put out if they hadn't made such a big deal about limiting the number of vendors of certain types of animals.

I'm not trying to be inflamitory, just trying to get a feel for this business.

Thanks for the input
Kisha

 

[Glenn Bartley]

You asked for opinions. I gave mine. If it is not in agreement with your own, well in the words of Sister Walter Phillip a nun I had in grammar school many years ago: TOUGH NOOGIES. I don't mean that to be nasty, I mean it the way the woman pretending to be a penguin used to mean it and I think that was: tough, get over it, and move on because you asked for it. She always used that in sort of 'you asked for it situations' that kids found themselves in. I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a right to have your own opinion. I do not expect you to stop posting how you feel simply because our opinions disagree. I find it quite amusing though that: the first person whose opinion disagrees with your own and you tell that person "whoa.." and to " lay off...".

My points still stand. If the show allows outside animals that are not a vendor's, then what are you gonna do, ruin it for those other people? If that was show policy, then why ruin it for others, just go to another promoter's shows from now on. If the promoter did not explain this to you, well there is an old Roman saying that covers such a situation: Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware). In this case since you were buying/renting the table, I think, it is your responsibility to check on what you are getting for your money. Granted if the promoter tried to hide these facts from you, then that may be fraud on his part and that stinks. It also stinks if they were just too inconsiderate to let you know all of the rules, but that is only another reason that you should have checked on them. I don't blame you for not wanting to go to that promoter's shows again, but I would think you wrong to try and stop the practice of allowing in animals with the potential buyers/traders; that is my opinion.

To me, as I reread your original post and THE OTHER RESPONSES YOU RECEIVED, it all still sounds like the all too common prelude to an ensuing crusade. Sorry if you don't like that word, but that is the only one I can think of that seems to fit what I believe, in my opinion, seemed to me to be happening.



Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Wow, I just got done with your thread posted on the BOI about this same subject, and now more than ever I believe crusade is the correct word of choice. You did not like my opinion, nor my choice of words, but here I go again, because I just got done reading what you posted on the BOI. If anyone is lacking in ethics, I do not think it the promoters of the show in question after reading the response of the fellow who responded to your thread on the BOI, the person who knew the reason that show was started years ago.

"I now realize that the show started small, but mabey policies should change with the growing show."

That sure sounds to me like you are wishing for other than what you said in your earlier response to me in this thread. I quote your earlier response to me:

"The reason I posted was to find out if I even had a right to be annoyed. I'm not looking to change someones show outright.

It sure sounds to me from your posting on the BOI that you would at least like to see it changed, or am I reading too much into that. If those people started the show you attended, as the fellow on the BOI told you they did, to facilitate trades and small time sales, then maybe you should butt out and let them handle their show as they see fit, that is my opinion! You have been told about the spirit of how it started, and you said you don't want to change it outrright, but you in essence believe maybe policies should change. To suit whom, I ask! To suit you it seems to me. Didn't the other person make it clear that the people who for years have been vending at this show are satisfied with the way things are.

I think the only person acting unethically here is the newcomer to that show who seemingly, in my mind, got upset, then got mad because no one wanted to change, and now wants to change things or at least see them changed to suit only the newcomer.

It is amazing how much clearer things become when you see the other side of the story, the people who have been running and

My suggestion would be to drop it and let the promoters and other vendors have their way. They had a purpose when they created the show, they are apparently keeping to that purpose by allowing in animals belonging to other than registered vendors, and that seems to facilitate their original plan. You may have a right to complain, but they certainly have a right to run the show the way they see fit.

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Glenn.... Yo, buddy.... take a Midol and relax, will ya?? The point we are trying to make is better given in a short scenario.... if you spent your hard-earned money to buy/rent a table(s) at a show, spent money for your hotel, transportation, food, etc, etc.... how would YOU feel if, when you were set up at your table, if some "guy" stood by YOUR table with a box full of exactly what you were selling.... at lower prices?? Would you really find that acceptable?? I think it's in very bad taste for the promoter of ANY show to let "people off the street" bring animals in to SELL OR TRADE! It's basically a slap in the face to all the dealers that actually PAID for their tables.... I can understand, maybe, being allowed to bring in ONE ANIMAL to the show.... but a BOX of them?? That's totally unacceptable TO ME! Why spend for the tables if you can just walk in and "hustle" the patrons....
It's like if someone stood outside my store's front door with a box of baby beardies or anything like that, and tried to sell them to everyone that walked in my door.... I'D SHOOT HIM!!
Glenn.... if you really think that's an appropriate way to run a show.... whew!

....Neil

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

Uncle Goobs,
It's a simple fix. She went to the previous show before she became a vendor. The same policies where in place and acceptable enough for her to want to return as a vendor. The rules outlined are simple, clear and few of them. If they are unacceptable after the fact then IMO like Glenns is tough. She knew going into the show how it was ran. She made her educated decision to become a vendor and accepted the rules as put forth by the Hampers. End of story really.

That's the great thing about freedom to choose. She chose to go knowing the RULES and atmosphere before hand.

However...

Now as for the guy standing at her table with a box of animals trying to sell to her customer. That is wrong and the promoters will do something if they are notified when it is occurring. They cant do much if they don't see it.

The number of patrons that actually bring in animals is on the VERY minute side. During the day your lucky to see maybe 10 to 15 folks with one snake or a turtle or lizard of some sort on the average. And of that 10 or 15 out of thousands, only 1 or 2 may be as she described. It's by far not a common occurrence for folks to bring in boxes chocked full of animals.

I have seen it happen where a kid and his mom or dad will bring in a box of newly hatched lizards from their pets and a dealer will offer to buy the whole lot only to turn around an put it on his table at 2 to 3 times what he just got them for. The dealers win, the kids win, and the patrons get to choose from a nice batch of cbb lizards to buy from. That is how most of the carry-ins end up. But by your last post acting as a dealer, you would lose out on this profit as well.

As for the folks carrying signs advertising animals they carry-in, that is a no no and will be stopped from what I have seen in the past. As before, the event staff need to be notified of it to be able to correct it. It's NOT a common ocurrence by any stretch of the imagination.

You should really know about the show and how it's really ran before you talk about it. I do and have almost 10 years of first hand experience at that show. They feel as you do and its not acceptable to allow folks to stand in front of other tables trying to under bid them. It's by far not common practice by any means. They do go to great lengths to protect the vendors and keep them coming back month after month. If they didnt, than none would come came back month after month, year after year. Some like the Bells drive from as far as Florida to show up every month. So tell me, how bad can this show really be?

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Tim.... I was talking in generalities.... I wasn't trying to "pick" on this particular show.... I meant EVERY and ANY show.... I just don't think it's fair for the vendors??
I wasn't talking about Kisha specifically, either??
It's not a question of competition, or anything like that.... I just don't think it's fair....

....Neil

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Neil,

If I decided to run a show that allowed people to bring in animals from there homes, and these people were not registered vendors and you as a registered vendor did not like it - tough noogies. It would be my show, I would set the rules. If you would not want to be part of it because of my rules, then I would say find another show. I would have to live with that, but that is the way people do things all the time, they do it their way. As long as these particular rules were set in advance they are ethical as far as business practices go. Apparently other vendors do not feel it is a bad thing or why would this show continue year after year.

I am surprised that you of all people do not see the logic of this since, in my opinion, you seem to have this belief about how you run your own business. You know, nothing specific, but that is certainly the feeling I get from you when you say you would shoot someone selling herps outside your front door (sort of nervously LOL). I am not being disrespectful or a wise ass either, and I am not saying this is a bad thing. I think it is a good thing - you believe your business should be run your way, or so it appears to me from previous posts. I agree with you (or my perceived idea of what you believe), your business should be run your way; after all it is your business. Just as yours should be run your way, then so to should these folks be allowed to run their herp show their way. Of course a vendor may have a say in so much as to offer recommendations or make complaints, but the bottom line is if it is John Doe's show, then it is John Doe who sets the rules. If you or someoneelse did not like this setup, you are certainly not being forced to rent a table at this show. In answer to your how would I like it question, I have one for you: How would you like it if a pet shop owner from afar came into your shop and said, hey wait a minute that is not how we do it, I do not like how you do it, so I want you to change? I think you, of all people on this forum, would tell him to go blow hot air somewhere else, and I think you would be right.

Kisha on the other hand does not seem to understand this. She came from somewhere that ran shows the way she liked. Now she went to a show where things are run differently, even so much so that she disliked it. Fine, she can inquire and complain all she likes - hell I do it myself. The thing is that she is talking about ethics, and the ethical question as I see it is not whether or not these people can run their own show how they like it, but whether or not Kisha can, should or would even want to try to change that system. While I may be way off base, what I think she disliked most of all was that her complaints did not show any promise of changing things. That is the impression I got.

This is their show not hers. Sure she rented a table, and so do lots of others. Apparently the others are quite happy with how goes the show. I have seen this happen before at a local herp society. It is amazing how a newcomer will be the one who wants change or even winds up demanding change and ruins the whole ideal behind why the thing was set up as it was in the first place.

As for the guy selling a box of bearded dragons, and girls selling a bucket full of herps, and the constantly sneezing snake - boy that one particular show must be one for the record books, don't you think? If it was not one for the record books, then why after being to previous shows by the same promoter did Kisha decide to attend again. She did mention it was shows she saw things like this at, not show. The entrance of so called street animals should not have been a surprise to her.

Up above I answered one of your questions with a question. You asked how I would like that guy selling herps right across from me when he did not rent a table. I guess I owe you an answer. I maybe would have politely asked the giant fat guy to move on because he was a pest. Or maybe I would have made a complaint to the management if he did not move on; but afterall what rules was he breaking! I prefer to think I would have done business as usual, pointed out to my potential customers how healthy my Bearded Dragons looked in comparison to others at the show, I also would have told customers how well cared for were mine, then showed them the care sheets I had prepared for them. I would also gladly show them my other stock. Give them my telephone number or email address to contact me with further questions, given them my business card, explained my guarantee. That is really how I would handle it, no kidding. I would run my business as I saw fit; just as these guys seem to be running their business.

Just one last comment, a bit of advice: In my opinion, you should not write or say things like:

"It's like if someone stood outside my store's front door with a box of baby beardies or anything like that, and tried to sell them to everyone that walked in my door.... I'D SHOOT HIM!!".

I make this point because if by some long shot (pun intended) someone is outside your store selling animals, and you go out and give him an earful and the guy gets violent, and you have to defend yourself, and he winds up badly hurt or even dead, oh man what a mess you could be in old buddy because you said something like this. I know you do not mean it, I am pretty sure anyhow that that is what you wish you could do and not actually what you would do, but what about a jury.........

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley
ps: I did not take the Midol, I had a glass of nice red wine. That seemed to work so much better that I may have another. Those Sopranos, got me in the mood for some red wine, can you believe it!

 

[Dave Lawson]

I have done 14 shows this year with 5 different promotors. Each one have different rules and some do let people bring animals in from the street. Case in point, I just returned home from doing the C.F.H.S. show in Orlando and there was several people came in with their own herps from home and some had very low prices. One man was walking around with 2 rubbermaids full of Beardies and he was selling them for $15 so I did the smart thing I bought everyone he had and I have done the same thing at several shows. You have to understand people are not stupid yes some will buy from joe blow walking around with a bucket but most won't they want to know that if something happens to that animal that buy that there is someone that they can calllike a vendor. I get 4 to 8 tables at the shows I do and I pay from $100 up to $200 per table so yes I get pissed when people walk around selling their animals but if they are allowed I do not have a leg to stand on. So my advise is simply, either stop doing those shows that allow people to bring in their animals or grin and bare it.

 

[Kisha]

Thanks everyone- this has been an interesting discussion for me.
You all have raised some good points, some I agree with some I don't. It's all good debate.

Just to clarify, I had not been to the show in question ever before attending as a vendor. I have only lived in this state for a year so my first experience at all the shows I have gone to this year has been as a vendor. My only other experience with reptile shows has been in the southwest, it's my understanding that there are small monthly local shows cropping up out there also. I wonder what their policies are like?

I was bothered by this one shows policies, and I know of other shows that have simmilar rules. I was curious why the policy was this way and I think I have gotten answers.

As far as looking to change things that you think are wrong, whats the problem with that? If people didn't stand up and say, hey I don't think that's right, we would be living in a very different world. Do you think that Rosa Parks ever said, "well if white folks want to run their busses this way, then I'll just WALK!" (obvious overstated example, but you'll get my drift)

Even if my thoughts are'nt the majority, I think it is important to be heard on this issue. Even if you dissagree, I've certainly given you something to think about.

I wouldn't want to RUIN anything for anyone, I would be happy just making things better for everyone. If that's even possible.
I'm just a small time vendor, just sell enough to cover costs. I thought that this might be an even bigger issue to people who sell a lot at this show. I think the risks would be greater, at least.

But if the vendors who go to this show are fine with things the way they are, I guess I will just stick to the captive bred shows. I sell better there anyway.

I think crusade is too strong a term, I prefer campaign.

 

[Kisha]

Check this out...

my question

the answer

I wasn't even at this show, but it's the same event I've been talking about!

I guess it's just one example of vendors off the street selling at a show, don't just take my word for it.

Kisha

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Kisha,

Hmmm, now I would have to agree my use of the word crusade was off the mark, but I don't think campaign covers it either. I actually just heard the word in a song a few days ago, the word that now comes to mind. It now appears that this thing was an attempt at a Movement! You may have to be a bit older to remember just what one of those were, but since you brought up Rosa Parks I think you get my drift (LOL).

Using your own example, that of Rosa Parks, I must point out that yes she attempted to right a wrong - an obvious wrong that was immoral, unethical and illegal. What you are trying to right is not a wrong, in my opinion, but a style of doing things with which you are in disagreement. It in no way (overstated or not) can compare to Rosa Parks and her accomplishments. If you see something that someone else does that you do not like, why do you have to want to change it? That is their way of doing it. It is not wrong in any ethical, moral or legal way – it is just wrong in your eyes and the eyes of others who simply do not like it. In such instances, when you try to change it, yes you often wind up being ethically wrong, if only because you are butting into someone else’s business when they are doing things in their own way.

Oh, as for the example from the link to kingsnake – so what? No one is doubtful that people buy animals from people who walk in the front door with them. I just think, in my own experience, that most people buy from registered vendors at such shows; and also think that when someone has lowball prices, well then a vendor would be wise to scoop up those animals. The whole point of my argument was that there is nothing wrong with this if the practice is a normal part of business for the type of show you attended. I am not saying you have to like a guy selling right there in front of you, there is no accounting for someone else's lack of class. As for people walking around the show and not parking right there in front of your table, well that just does not get me upset if I know it is ok by the rules of the show. This type of show was started, according to someone who posted in the BOI on this same subject, in order to promote just that type of small time keeper/breeder selling and trading. That is why they have this show in the first place, that is the primary objective, the driving force behind it. There are plenty of others shows out there where at least one of the primary goals is commercial herp sales and making money. You have a lot to choose from.

That is my opinion in a nutshell and probably my last word on the issue.

By the way, welcome to faunaclassifieds.com herp forums. I got so into posting that I forgot my my manners for a bit there. Fun isn’t it? This is one of best herp sites on the net, and probably the best to discuss business issues for the big time herp dealer through the small time seller. Great site, and great people. Welcome.

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

 

[Seamus Haley]

I actually just heard the word in a song a few days ago, the word that now comes to mind. It now appears that this thing was an attempt at a Movement! You may have to be a bit older to remember just what one of those were

Arlo's a good man, no question about it...