rot x pit

[old guy]

you cannot breed unpredictability out

it is just that ! You are not the brain of the breed. While there are breeds that doesn't tolerate kids or the pulling of tails,ears, looking into the direct eyes, upside down in the submissive stance, most of these breeds are of smaller size like poodles, schnauzers, rat terriers, etc, they can do damage but hardly ever fatality damage of death like the rots and pits do. Did i say that rots and pits bite more than these other breeds ? No ! But damage and destruction is far more serious to life and limb. I didn't relate the well trained dog as another poster did . But it didn't matter in my case of my " best trained " rottie. It was conceived a voice of the person that set my female off on his receiving bite and he wasn't even looking, talking to the dog. Now if that isn't unpredictable behavior, I don't know what would be. I have kept up with many bite scenarios of these 2 main breeds and if it is not PACK syndrome, then it is bred unpredictability. That is my absolute opinion and knowledge. Now I'm not saying they shouldn't be bred or kept. but then we have the irresponsible or un-responsible person keeping. I would have to agree that many attacks and bites from any animal happens on the owners side of not being responsible. I don't think a breed of the 2 dogs that I have been discussing here should be kept around children as we have seen to be the biggest bite and attack scenario. I DID have all my rotties around my young daughters when they were growing up but I wouldn't even consider the breed now with me raising my grandsons. As in a venomous snake bite as i keep ( hot snakes ), it only takes one accident to be serious enough and there are just to many bites and attacks by these breeds to call it isolated anymore.
My bad on the aggresive part and protective part, TRUE that agressive doesn't mean protective or vice versa ?

 

[Cat_72]

In dogs the "mixing" of "breeds" is how other breeds are produced.
The breed factor has nothing to do with producing congenital defects. Line breeding is what develops defects, what perpetuates them and what makes them pervasive within a breed. Very few individuals within a breed have the genetics that make them suitable to produce offspring. Any dog with any heritable defect is unsuitable for breeding. No exceptions.QUOTE]

Again, I agree with much of your post. I completely agree that ANY dog with a genetic defect should not be used for breeding under any circumstances. I also agree that many new breeds have been developed by mixing breeds....however, creating a new breed is a long, labor intensive task that is meant to be undertaken by only the most dedicated of breeders, people who take the time to make certain that they begin only with the physically as well as genetically sound and healthy stock possible. What the original poster was asking was NOT something like this. Grabbing your Rott andPit Bull and crossing them just to see what would happen is NOT creating a new breed.

Line breeding in itself, when done PROPERLY, does NOT produce genetic defects, when done for the RIGHT reasons, it helps to lessen them. Keep in mind, there is a BIG difference between LINEbreeding and INbreeding. Again, using hip dysplasia as an example.....hip dysplasia has become rampant in some breeds like Labs, GSD, and Golden Retrievers. If you find a "line" of Labs that has been consistently free of dysplastic animals, why outcross into a line that is unknown? Of course, a GOOD breeder of Labs (or GSDs, or Rotts, or any breed prone to it) would never breed the dog anyway until it has been OFA certified. You can have a fairly wide gene pool and still be "line breeding".

On the other side of the coin......OK, so you cross your Rott and Pit Bull. Again, dysplasia is all too common in Rotts, (and I'm going to bet the original poster here hasn't researched the dog's genetic backgroud, more less has OFA cert XRays done) yet almost unheard of in Pit Bulls. You give away the puppies. One of them looks just like a Pit Bull. Somewhere down the line, someone decides to breed this to another Pit Bull.....and so on.....and people buy them as pure Pit Bulls. Whoops...a generation or 2 down the line....hip dyplasia?? Where did that come from??? Pit Bulls don't GET hip dysplasia...or do they? They do now.

I relaize these are pretty "in the box" situations, but what I'm trying to say is, line breeding is NOT necessarily a bad thing, although mixing breeds CAN have it's benefits in the right situation....unless you know what you are doing, and are doing it for the RIGHT reasons.......SPAY OR NEUTER your dog. Period. Do you have ANY idea how many Pit Bull mixed puppies are killed in shelters every day?

But it didn't matter in my case of my " best trained " rottie. It was conceived a voice of the person that set my female off on his receiving bite and he wasn't even looking, talking to the dog. Now if that isn't unpredictable behavior, I don't know what would be.

See...THIS is what I have a problem with as well. ONLY dogs with STABLE temperaments should EVER be bred. I know a LOT of good, quality Rott breeders who have the most even tempered, gentle dogs you've ever seen. Through selective breeding, the overly-aggressive behaviour CAN be weeded out to a great extent, WITHOUT lessening the PROTECTIVE instinct. People who breed dogs with an "unpredictable" temperament are the ones CAUSING the breed to be "unpredictable". Sure, there can be the occasional bad attitude in any dog, of any heritage, but procreating with an animal who will bite just because they don't like the sound of someone's voice is just WRONG.

I know people who have Schutzhund titled Rotts, on the training field or in the Schutzhund exhibition, they look like (and probably could!) take down and eat just about anyone and anything. But off time, they are dogs I would trust above many others, because they KNOW when to bite and when not to.

Blaiming the whole breed as being "unpredictable" and there's nothing anyone can do about it......well, THAT is what gives these breeds their mostly undeserved reputations.

 

[Pug]

When we were looking for another dog and chose our Rot x Chow x Greyhound Cassie, she was listed as a Rot x G. Shepard. We didn't choose her based on breed, but more on how she resembled our dog Sammy that had passed away a month earlier. An initial exam led us to think that her rot-like features were because of her Chow-ness (stubby muzzles are a Chow feature too).

All 3 of my pound acquired dogs are spayed/neutered, even our pure pred Pug is nuetered

 

[Cat_72]

Good for you, Chris.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying there's anything wrong with mixed breeds....they can make very wonderful companions as well.

ALL of my dogs are currently spayed or neutered, purebred or otherwise....from my very expensive powderpuff Chinese Crested (shown in my avatar, lol) to my rescues. It's only fair to THEM.

Pugs are VERY cool too.

 

[Jim O]

Pugs are VERY cool too.

Yes they are. Here's my neutered male. Sorry for the somewhat post.

 

[Cat_72]

AWWWWWW........him's soooo cute!!!

 

[South Dixie Dragons]

AWWWWWW........him's soooo cute!!!

Cat! I thought I was one of the only ones who uses "him's"
Glad to know I am not alone! lol!!

Jim,
He is a cutie pie! WHat is his name?? does he snore really bad? My friend had one that snored so bad she would wake you up in the middle of the night..

 

[Pug]

My Pug is chubby. I'm currently trying to get him to walk on the treadmill, but it's not working so well. He's also on a restricted diet with special food. None of the others are chubby though, especially Sammy, the G. Retreiver, and he is the most inactive dog I've ever known. The only thing that gets him excited is meeting new people, includng the UPS guy and the mail man. Once he even ran out of the yard and into a neighboor's card, then we had to lure him out with a grilled steak.

There's a huge problem out here with mixed breed dogs and owners simply not 'fixing' their dogs. A friend of a friend has a backyard full of dogs that continuously mix and they let most of the animals roam free. That seems to be the way a lot of people do things.

 

[Jim O]

\Jim,
He is a cutie pie! WHat is his name?? does he snore really bad? My friend had one that snored so bad she would wake you up in the middle of the night..

He's George. He snores quite a bit but has never woken me.

I am pretty tight with his diet and he has maintained a steady weight (so far) though I know that they tend to get fat.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Keep in mind, there is a BIG difference between LINEbreeding and INbreeding.

And that BIG difference is? You can call it line breeding if you want but if you breed mother to son or daughter to father, it's still inbreeding.

 

[Cat_72]

Uhhhh.........

And that BIG difference is? You can call it line breeding if you want but if you breed mother to son or daughter to father, it's still inbreeding.

THAT WAS MY POINT.

Breeding that closely (mother/son or father/daughter) is INbreeding. Obviously there are people out there who DO breed that closely and erroneously call it LINEbreeding....and those that don't know the difference also very obviously should not BE breeding in the first place. That would be the whole reason I pointed out that there was a DIFFERENCE....as in, I was NOT encouraging inbreeding.

Sheesh.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Line breeding in itself, when done PROPERLY, does NOT produce genetic defects, when done for the RIGHT reasons, it helps to lessen them. Keep in mind, there is a BIG difference between LINEbreeding and INbreeding.

It's really hard to figure out exactly what your point was after you wrote the above two sentences. It looks as if you think line breeding and inbreeding are two different things. Sorry if I read it the wrong way but the above is what you wrote.

 

[Cat_72]

It's really hard to figure out exactly what your point was after you wrote the above two sentences. It looks as if you think line breeding and inbreeding are two different things

.

Good grief.

INbreeding and LINEbreeding ARE 2 different things. That would be the reason I said there is a DIFFERENCE between the 2. That would also be why I said that breeding mother/son or father daughter was called linebreeding ERRONEOUSLY.

Breeding father/daughter or mother/son is INBREEDING. We've got that much, right?

LINE breeding is a bit more difficult to explain. It's more breeding animals with some similar ancestors (i.e. the same bloodline), but not direct next-of-kin. Like say.....half-aunt to half-nephew, for example, if that makes any sense without me trying to draw it all out. OR... having SOME of the same ancestors a couple of generations back. Again, why I said you can have a fairly wide gene pool and still be LINEbreeding.

An OUTCROSS is when you breed 2 animals from totally different lines, i.e. you can go back many, many generations back and find no similar ancestors whatsoever.

 

[South Dixie Dragons]

Cat is absolutely correct. INBREEDING & LINE BREEDING are two different things completely.
Inbreeding= Father to daughter, grandfather to granddaughter, two siblings
Line Breeding= staying in the same line (ie dogs that came from the same kennel, or dogs that have a common relative but far back in the pedigree or twice removed..like 3rd or 4th cousins)
OutCross= not related in anyway shape or form

There is nothing wrong with in breeding provided you know what you are doing . Breeders have produced some of the best lines by inbreeding. But the same can be said for line breeding and out crossing and just simply breeding on phenotype which is the way the "dog world" seems to be going as well as in other animals...

 

[Cat_72]

Thank you, Michele.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

IMO breeding RELATED animals is still inbreeding, no matter what one chooses to call it.

 

[South Dixie Dragons]

Karen,

Here are some great links that you may find informative:

www.sloughi-international.com/linebreeding.htm

www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-types.html

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html

 

[Cat_72]

So Karen, you are saying that if you have 2 animals that share ONE ancestor say, 4 generations back.....you are inbreeding if you mate them?

 

[Serpwidgets]

BTW, all members of the same species have common ancestors and are related, it's just a matter of how far back you have to go in order to find those common ancestors. :scatter:

 

[Cat_72]

Excellent point, Charles.