Selective breeding.

[rabernet]

Please do! I'll be interested to see!

 

[Dbz4246]

I wanted to revive this thread since I had a question about this topic anyway. First off: thank you Robin for posting those pics!

So now I ask what is the perfect form of the morph? What does the highest quality of a morph supposed to look like? For example, could someone post a pic of that perfect spider that isnt supposed to have spots? So I ask if anyone can post pics of what yall think the perfect version of that morph is supposed to represent is?
Thanks!

 

[Dbz4246]

And by that morph, I mean any and all BP morphs

 

[rcpreis3]

Well I guess Ill get it started.

Vanilla.

 

[Dbz4246]

Nice, that is an amazing looking vanilla! Thank you!

 

[Daequix]

I wanted to revive this thread since I had a question about this topic anyway. First off: thank you Robin for posting those pics!

So now I ask what is the perfect form of the morph? What does the highest quality of a morph supposed to look like? For example, could someone post a pic of that perfect spider that isnt supposed to have spots? So I ask if anyone can post pics of what yall think the perfect version of that morph is supposed to represent is?


Thanks!

I am actually sad you rekindled this, though I have nothing against you or your questions--- and I do think it could be a very nice conversation to have given different circumstances. I had been unaware of the original thread and now am a bit irritated to have read it.

I understand people wanting to 'set the example' for breeding but last I checked there is no AKC in reptiles. Now if you all want to establish a Reptiles Kennel Association, that's fine--but it takes a LOT more than a small speck or cluster of breeders who have their own individual opinions to establish a standard that provides specifications for morph appearance and quality. I'd love to see some standards and qualities made more public....yet we need to realize that mud slinging at those maybe less fortunate than you isn't a nice thing. Establishing baseline criteria does not take a group of a very few to sling their rather rude comments about others in general.

When I purchase a ball python- I don't go to the grab bag and close my eyes. Each snake is purchased for a reason....whether it is aesthetically pleasing to me, meets a desired look or pattern or even just calls to me when I pass. Each is hand picked and is purchased because I want it. I happen to be very proud of my collection and the personal touch I am able to take in obtaining it, growing and nurturing them. But that is my prerogative and this is done this way because individually I find that pleasing, fun and rewarding.


I'm not in this for the money, I'm in it for the joy, the camaraderie, the community, the wonderful friends I have made over the last few years, the discussion and the ability to learn from and share with others. I enjoy what I do..even if I do complain about slinging snake poop once in a while.

While some of you may think you are much better than the community at large here-- there are many of us who are willing to be true part of the community. This entails nicely answering what is deemed a 'stupid question' by some or taking the time to support a novice breeder or person who is caring for ball pythons for the first time. There are those of us who are not going to try and stand on the shoulders of someone else to make a novice feel stupid because they didn't follow your rules or ideas.

Some times some of us don't have a big enough 'budget' to get any of those top dollar snakes. So we have to work with the hets, or those “dark normals”....or those 'ugly' snakes I am hearing about in this thread. I love each of my snakes. Some are pet status. Some are breeder status. Every one of them has a name, and always will. All of this is part of my joy and pleasure in working with Ball Pythons.

Honestly I feel comments like some (not all!) made in this thread give the reptile community a bad name, a bad taste, and a bad reputation. Don’t get me wrong in that I think there is no different quality in snakes….I just really resent the condescending comments. I do admit I can't change your personalities but...I think it is important to understand how you may appear to many of us.

Intolerance of others and looking down on others is not something I would be proud to sport. And while to some it may make some people feel better about themselves on the whole....it is a false sense of security. (This is written from my OWN opinion and viewpoint and I do not expect everyone to agree).

 

[Tere Salazar]

Susan, every single word you said...exactly.

Honestly, I thought that's part of what made reptiles, in general, but more specifically, ball pythons so appealing is that there is one in each morph to please the eye of their beholder, and really, isn't that what matters most?

The aforementioned line of thinking is what's had me on a 3 year quest for the perfect yellow pastel (one that will remain vibrant yellow past baby-hood) ...which it seems no longer even exists.

 

[Diego Velarde]

Great post Susan! There's a huge variety of tastes out there. I'm sure there's many people that think my snakes are butt-ugly but they put a smile on my face whenever I open their tubs, no hard feelings as long as I like them.

I do not think that anyone was looking down at anyone when posting on this thread (it's probably because English is not my native language and sometimes I dont 'get' what they're really trying to say...at least that's what I tell my wife when I dont listen to her )
I just think that people are proud of what they have and like to show them off and have every right to do so.
Most of us (small breeders) are not in it for the money and do not mass-produce to make a quick buck which I think also reflects on quality. So we put more effort into finding the perfect snake because we can only keep one or two snakes of the same morph. This effort will pay off in the end.

I admire selective breeding and like to use Mr Brian Gundy and his mojaves as a perfect example. He is all what selective breeding is all about. It took generations to get those Gold Blush mojos to what they are right now. His mojos are amazing and I like them a lot but at the same time I prefer darker mojaves because that's just my taste. Just how I like black backs on cinnies and black pastels but dislike them on lessers/butters.

Tere, I hope to put your search at rest soon

 

[Dbz4246]

When I read the post, I didnt think anyone was really attacking anyone or putting anyone down. Different people have different tastes, so I wanted to know what others thought what the perfect example of a morph should be.

 

[hhmoore]

I'm not afraid to label babies I produce as ugly...any more than I would hold back on saying one is awesome. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and people's tastes are quite varied. I've had customers that were thrilled with snakes I considered butt ugly...good for them, and good for me. AND, if I really think it is that ugly, it is more than likely that I'm pricing it accordingly to get it the heck out of here... before the ugly rubs off on the babies I like

 

[Dbz4246]

I'm not afraid to label babies I produce as ugly...any more than I would hold back on saying one is awesome. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and people's tastes are quite varied. I've had customers that were thrilled with snakes I considered butt ugly...good for them, and good for me. AND, if I really think it is that ugly, it is more than likely that I'm pricing it accordingly to get it the heck out of here... before the ugly rubs off on the babies I like

I concur lol. I just want to get the snake that just really stands out, but some snakes I dont even know they came with a paint job like that lol. For instance, the spiders without spots. I just assumed that that was how the spider gene originally was. And that the pastel gene was just doomed to brown out, no questions asked. Now I know thats not true, so I want to aim my collection with what I deem the highest grade of animals. But thats just me
And I am still new at this, I havent even made a clutch of eggs yet
So I want to know what there is to know about the genes, before I produce them

 

[Daequix]

Susan, every single word you said...exactly.

Honestly, I thought that's part of what made reptiles, in general, but more specifically, ball pythons so appealing is that there is one in each morph to please the eye of their beholder, and really, isn't that what matters most?

The aforementioned line of thinking is what's had me on a 3 year quest for the perfect yellow pastel (one that will remain vibrant yellow past baby-hood) ...which it seems no longer even exists.

Tere, thanks much-- I hear you and I agree 2000% about eye of the beholder.

Great post Susan! There's a huge variety of tastes out there. I'm sure there's many people that think my snakes are butt-ugly but they put a smile on my face whenever I open their tubs, no hard feelings as long as I like them.

I do not think that anyone was looking down at anyone when posting on this thread (it's probably because English is not my native language and sometimes I dont 'get' what they're really trying to say...at least that's what I tell my wife when I dont listen to her )
I just think that people are proud of what they have and like to show them off and have every right to do so.
Most of us (small breeders) are not in it for the money and do not mass-produce to make a quick buck which I think also reflects on quality. So we put more effort into finding the perfect snake because we can only keep one or two snakes of the same morph. This effort will pay off in the end.


Tere, I hope to put your search at rest soon

Diego,

I hope you can put mine to rest too-- thanks much for the reply and comments--you show extreme intelligence in the fact that you let the wife think you don't 'get' it. lol

I am not sure who or what intent was behind comments but I guess that there are many times I wonder if we think of the impact on others with our comments....I just remember starting off in my own adventures with my snakes and getting scammed a few times or making poor choices. I'm not sure I would have stuck with it if it hadn't been for the support of other reptile breeders and the community that was supportive.

I'm a nurse. And in some areas of nursing, we are said to 'eat our young'. I hate to see the reptile community follow suit in this. I think this is why I responded to this-- the conversation seemed very exclusionary and elitist at certain points.

When I read the post, I didnt think anyone was really attacking anyone or putting anyone down. Different people have different tastes, so I wanted to know what others thought what the perfect example of a morph should be.

Hi Jessie-- I honestly don't expect everyone to agree-- the conversation struck me as such, and this is why I commented. I would welcome honest to goodness discussion on what would be the best pastel to put with a normal or a.... <insert your favorite morph here>. One of the first gentlemen in this hobby that I dealt with was fantastic at discussing that with me. I didn't quite get it all the time, but I found it fascinating to hear his ideas on it. I think we can all learn from that---it is comments though that belittle other people's efforts, or that were unkind or impatient that I saw here and do see at times in different areas of Fauna-- overall I have a true feeling of community here though--just a few occasions (like this one) were I really felt the need to say.... "Whoa!"

I will say though--- I can't always say that my perception is the same as another persons. I responded due to my own perception of the discussion and after reading the entire thread several times.

I'm not afraid to label babies I produce as ugly...any more than I would hold back on saying one is awesome. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and people's tastes are quite varied. I've had customers that were thrilled with snakes I considered butt ugly...good for them, and good for me. AND, if I really think it is that ugly, it is more than likely that I'm pricing it accordingly to get it the heck out of here... before the ugly rubs off on the babies I like

Now Harald...are we talking about the children or the snakes you have produced? Sorry....couldn't resist! You have to admit you walked into that one.

I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I believe that is why I really took offense to some of the comments. I'd love to be able to say to you that I was the best breeder in the world and I always have a reason for who I cycle with who....generally I do. But I will never be the best breeder, but I can be one who cares and I think that means a whole heck of alot more than being precise or perfect in what I do.

And I am still new at this, I havent even made a clutch of eggs yet
So I want to know what there is to know about the genes, before I produce them

Jessie-- I do know I would like to know more about what will produce certain looks in my kiddos. Agree totally on this concept, and it can never hurt to know more!

 

[Beardiefreak26]

i know nothing about balls but i do know that selective breeding happens even within the human race. The football stars and such get there girls of chose and then the people that are smart and don't have the 'good looks' have to really try and the football stars genes are past on to the next generation early so there offspring get a head start. TADA selective breeding at work.

 

[Ramiro]

selectively breeding is great except when:

I agree with all the talk about slectively breeding for prettier snakes, the only time I really don't want to see it is when I'm looking to buy locality snakes. I have some locality colubrids and I do not selectively breed them whatsoever. I only pair them up to mate randomly so that the offspring maintain all the genetic variability of the wild snakes from their locale (if at all possible). This way if I'm still keeping a certain locale 20 years from now they will still look like wild snakes. Once I have enough snakes for a locale I would be willing to pick out some of the best looking ones and attempt to selectively breed for looks, they will be separated from my locale breeders and be labeled as such. Basically ill have two lines for the locales, one selectively bred, one maintained wild.

 

[Beardiefreak26]

great idea

 

[rcpreis3]

I agree with all the talk about slectively breeding for prettier snakes, the only time I really don't want to see it is when I'm looking to buy locality snakes. I have some locality colubrids and I do not selectively breed them whatsoever. I only pair them up to mate randomly so that the offspring maintain all the genetic variability of the wild snakes from their locale (if at all possible). This way if I'm still keeping a certain locale 20 years from now they will still look like wild snakes. Once I have enough snakes for a locale I would be willing to pick out some of the best looking ones and attempt to selectively breed for looks, they will be separated from my locale breeders and be labeled as such. Basically ill have two lines for the locales, one selectively bred, one maintained wild.

Awesome idea

 

[Ramiro]

I always ask a breeder how long he has kept the locality and if he has selectively bred them any, most of the time the answer is "yes" to selective breeding which always bothers me when I'm looking to get a new local and usually turns me away from the sale.I want my snakes to actually look like the wild snakes that still live there not someones' interpretation of a prettier snake using snakes from that locality that they've had for generations.


I'd love to get some wild or CB (but not selectively bred CB) Jasper county okeetee corns because they would actually look like the real deal, the problem is that they've been in the hobby for a while and everyone has selectively bred them so they resemble the wild snakes little. Not that that is an entirely bad thing, I love the looks of my okeetees and am always trying to better them, it would just be nice if I could also get some that were never selectively bred.

 

[Beardiefreak26]

jasper county of what state i am not familiar with corns

 

[Ramiro]

Jasper Co. South Carolina, home to the okeetee corns or so they say.

 

[rcpreis3]

Jasper Co. South Carolina, home to the okeetee corns or so they say.

I heard the came from south Florida, tho im not into colubrids and it was just through some browsing pages and caresheets.

This thread isnt really going and I have an idea to try and spice it up.

Anyone got a project the've been working on for a few years they would care to share? What did u start with and what are going for? What traits mixed well with others? Any pics? Did u develop ur own line?