The het for pied 'marker'

[phoenix-cry]

This is a very informal study that I thought I'd conduct.

How many of you guys have snakes WITH het for pied markers that have *proven* to be het for pied?

How many of you guys have snakes WITHOUT the het for pied marker that has *proven* to also be het for pied?

How many of you have snakes WITH the het for pied marker that has *proven* NOT to be het for pied?

Basically I've heard a lot of stuff about this marker and I'm wondering if it truly is accurate or if it just improves your chances.

I'll be adding to this research next breeding season...I have a mojave that has the marker on one side...but not the other that is 66% het pied.

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

I researched the heck outta this topic as well. I have two snakes w/"markers." I'm curious to see what you find as well. I found is that unless it's from known pied sire/damn, then markers usually mean nothing. However, that's not the question you're asking, so I look forward to seeing what develops here

 

[phoenix-cry]

It just seems so interesting that of all the recessive genes that this one should somehow express itself when they others do not. At the same time when I look at the underside of my none het pied pastel he does not have the same black markings on either side of the tail.

 

[Daequix]

I wish I could help add to this data and maybe I can this year. However all 5 of my het for pied girls And het for pied male didn't prove in 2 seasons. This year they were bred to a pied male. So now someone has some proving to do. I'll try and remember to keep you posted.

Interesting though, I hope to keep an eye on this thread.

 

[phoenix-cry]

Do all your snakes have the marker?

 

[Daequix]

Do all your snakes have the marker?

The male (now the former breeder) has the marker to the max.
2 of the girls do....1 doesn't and the other 2 come from a very good friend and very reliable breeder who called 1 possible and the other 100% het--
I'll have to recheck them for markers I didn't really get into that when I purchased from him. I trust him implicitly.

 

[phoenix-cry]

Well if you are breeding het to het, the odds are against proving out anyway....

 

[Daequix]

Well if you are breeding het to het, the odds are against proving out anyway....

Precisely why I added my male "Piedyed" to the mix. Figure even if they don't prove out...I'll have known 100% hets.

 

[mizztaztic7]

That has always interested me as well. It almost seems that the animal would be co-dominant if the het markers were always present in the heterozygous form, similar to a yellowbelly's trait. I actually have a video I did showing my het pied female's markers in the link below. I find it strange that in animals with multiple color genes expressed this trait usually is not present, i.e. a pastel het for pied. If it is true, to me, you almost have to re-think whether or not the piebald gene really is recessive or not. Which I'm sure would be slightly controversial. lol

 

[phoenix-cry]

My pastel 100% het pied does have the marker.

By definition a recessive gene should have no expression in a heterozygous animal, it also seems odd that it would cause this particular striping near the vent.

More research needed!

 

[rcpreis3]

Actually I noticed alot of pastels seem to have the belly marker naturally as a pastel. I assume the specific marker were talking about is the railroad looking pattern on the borders of the belly and lateral patterns.

Somethign like this?

Hes my dinker and I should have some answers for u next year when one of his daughters will hopefully be up to size.

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

This is our dinker's belly.

 

[KY Reptiles]

My fire male that's believed to be a lemon back by everyone here has crazy markers on him, they're super super long. I plan on getting a pied female to see if he is an actual het. If he is then I really got a killer deal on him, lol.

 

[AK907]

I need to get a pied to prove my female dinker out. Markers/tracks don't get any better than this girl!

 

[hhmoore]

The marker isn't meant to indicate that random snakes are het pied...it is more of a best guess method for picking from a group of possible hets (ie products of a het to het pairing).

Well if you are breeding het to het, the odds are against proving out anyway

Hmmm - based on the fact that each egg from a het to het pairing statistically has only a 25% chance of being homozygous, I can't really argue that too strongly....but I will dispute it anyway, lol. If you are breeding het to het - real ones, not possibles or wannabes - they will prove out. Eventually. It's just a matter of producing enough babies to make it happen. I bred a pair of (non BP) hets one year, and got one visual out of 16 babies...had that egg not survived, I would never have known they were hets (unknown hets are still hets, lol). I bred them the following year and got 10 visuals out of 17 babies. Over time, it equals out.

 

[rcpreis3]

The marker isn't meant to indicate that random snakes are het pied...it is more of a best guess method for picking from a group of possible hets (ie products of a het to het pairing).

Yea, but who knows who had a het and has bred it and its offspring never knowing the hidden genetics.

Its nice to dream

In my boys case Im actually hoping to prove his pattern out. Im hoping hes a homozygous of a recessive reduced/banded gene but if hes a hidden het for anything I wouldnt be upset with some pieds.

Next year if he doesnt prove out his pattern on one of his kids ill evetually try a visual pied female just to satisfy my curiosity. Honestly, I love playing with dinkers!

 

[hhmoore]

That comment wasn't aimed at anybody in particular, just for the record.
And, you're right, who knows - the example I used referred to unknown hets

 

[Daequix]

Well if you are breeding het to het, the odds are against proving out anyway....

Not to beat a dead horse! lol...

I've had 2 clutches of 2 prove out on my genetic stripes of het to het breeding. I just haven't proven my pieds. From my standpoint it gave me alot more bang for my buck when I first started getting into beepers. (not trying to divert the thread but had to come back to that one! lol)

 

[scratchypen]

As off the norm as it may be, it seems that in ball pythons (and I read somewhere along the way this happening in other snakes as well), that hets seem to express that they are het in some way. For example, my two het clowns are pretty crazy looking. The male has the greyish color to him with a grey belly, my female looks almost hypo. My het ghost female is brighter then any of my normal girls and my pastel het hypo male has a different color to him then any pastel Ive seen. It seems, overall, hets seem to express that they are het somehow for something, but, it seems with the pieds is that there one single thing you can count on, which is the markers. I think Ralph Davis posted a video though where he hatched out a buncha het pieds and some had markers and some didnt, so, not always an indicator.

 

[Abby]

I heard J Kobylka (pretty sure it was him) say on a video on youtube that all of his possible hets with markers that he has held back and bred proved out 100% for him. So he is a believer in the marker. Then again another person I've talked to has two female hets who have no markers that have produced pieds. Then you have those random normals with pied markers (IMO these shouldn't be called normals unless bred - no way to know something is 100% normal without breeding it.)

My first Ball Python Randal, who I got about 10 years ago has the marker but I've never bred him to prove it. Here is his tail but it runs almost the length of his body. No real plans to breed him, but since he was my first ball I might give him a lady friend one of these days just so that when he's gone, I'll have a baby to remember em by.

Also Fires are known to have the "tracks" too. Not many pics or info on Fire bellies out there but from my endless neurotic digging that is what I've found.