The No-Insults Hybridization Debate

[Sasheena]

Okay, I know it's probably impossible, but it will be interesting to see if it is at least possible for a short time to see if it can be done: A thread on hybrids where nobody insults the other person.

I wanted to bring up some thoughts pretty much as I have them...

Someone in another thread was questioning the possibility of ANY sort of useful information to be discovered in hybridizing animals. (hybrid = cross the species boundary; integrade = cross the subspecies boundary).

Well one thing I find fascinating, and believe is useful information, is those animals that have an albino gene that is compatible, or it would be even more interesting to see what other kinds of genes out there are compatible.

The naysayers might say this was not of interest/scientific value, and perhaps this is so... indeed, once it was proven that there was a compatibility one could argue that the need for further crosses of that nature is finished and no need for more. I agree in some ways with this, but not all ways.

Next year, or possibly the year after, I might indeed create my own hybrids. I own several hybrids, and several integrades. Some of my plans for the future (possibly):

Jurassic Milk x Jurassic Milk (hybrids).... I should get 25% albinos, and lots of people think those are beautiful. (I don't, I think albino animals aren't very pretty at all.)

California King x Desert King (splendida) .... these naturally integrade, but of course the ones I produce won't be the natural integrades, but a product of captive breeding. I have seen what these look like, or at least some, and felt it was a beautiful snake, occurring naturally, so why not? (and yes, I know a lot of the arguments against hybridization, but would love to hear an insult-free discussion on this again).

Pyro x Jurassic Milk (oh horror of horrors!).... Why on earth would I do this? Because I think the babies would be pretty. Because the pyro would have a small clutch, allowing me to keep the offspring, because the male pyro might not want to go with the female pyro. If it takes effort (and I've heard it does) then the chances are I will NOT make this cross, but it does have potential.

Hypo Floridana x Eastern integrades (I have a 1.1 pair) I might cross these to one another someday and get some hypo integrades.

There are other mixes... chances are good that I won't ever hybridize except for crossing my two jurassics, and possibly crossing one or more species with my male jurassic.

The good thing is that I don't sell anything remotely "high end"... just corns and kings, nothing super special (well I think they are) and I won't have to worry about someone doubting the validity of one of my babies.

In any case... if those of you who join this thread can bite your toungues, or sit on your hands or do whatever is necessary to NOT insult others on the thread,...... insult the practice, not the practicER (bad grammar!)... perhaps we can have a nice debate. Or not. But hey, I tried.

 

[Boidaddic14]

lol no one answered i guess no one can contain myself, my opinion on this issue is if it could be an accident in wild then it's not too bad. The only thing i fear from hybrids is people breeding hybrids to pure blood animals and if this is done it could be almost impossible to find pure breed animals. Like the ballxblood for instance i believe is just not right since thier not even in the same country, plus the thing i dont understand is why would someone even try this if bloods like humid environments and balls like fairly dry climates, And it just adds more stress on the snakes by doing this, also i have also been seeing the cornxking quite often and i was talking to a breeder at the show who did this and he said he lost a couple nice cornsnakes while trying this, to me thats not a very good trade a couple eaten corns for some half breed mutts.
Eric Weintraub

 

[Sasheena]

Well human beings are nothing if they aren't curious! I must admit that part of why I bought the jurassics I have was curiousity!

The worst thing for me is that I get to be curious... I want to KNOW what snake variety A crossed to snake variety B would look like. I often get the response: "That was done, and they were SOOOO ugly"... well if it was done, and the babies were ugly, SHOW ME. IF I saw the cross and agreed with the consensus, I would NEVER consider the cross.

I suppose it would be nice if I could see the crosses I'm the most curious about displayed without editorial comments. Personally I can decide for myself if something is pretty or ugly.

I mean really, every person has a different idea of ugly or beautiful. When I was in college one of my best friends had the most bizarre (to me) preference in men... she always looked for the kind who had bulging eyes, pudgy tummies, and hairy backs. Now, personally, I found her "dreamboat" quite repulsive... but I figured it was good news for the people out there who met her taste in men.

 

[reptilebreeder]

These debates always start out by someone giving their reasons for being pro/con hybrid, and then say keep it civil or logical. Well, really how would someone argue the "rational" of hybridizing by saying basically to paraphrase "we do it because we can" or "I want to see what something looks like" to me that smacks of human arrogance.

also, you state that you don't do "high end animals" so it doesn't matter. Not a dirrect qoute, but that is what I get out of that sentence. The fact is that I don't think there is that much of a problem with high end animals, because when someone is spending big dollars they are going to make sure that the breeder is beyond reproach, as far as ethics and origin of the animals. Besides, eventually high end animals become low end, by then it is to late. Moreover, I think the gene pool is getting spoiled on primarily the "low end" because people feel the way you do, ie. they're "just corns and kings". Those happen to be my favorite animals.
For years it was the jungle corn (king x corn) now there are polluted pools of just about every common thing out there, particularly Grey banded kings, in fact most of the kings, milks, corns, etc.

JMHumbleO

 

[robin d.]

I am personally against hybridization totally. and i am against integrades aswell, however on that note i do know of many subspecies that are naturally occuring integrades and those are fine with me , even though my choice is to not keep them.

Pyro x Jurassic Milk (oh horror of horrors!).... Why on earth would I do this? Because I think the babies would be pretty. Because the pyro would have a small clutch, allowing me to keep the offspring, because the male pyro might not want to go with the female pyro.

if you want to breed pyros and at first you do not suceed... wait and try again. just because they do not mate for you doesnt mean you should just throw the jurasic milk in there just so you can get some babies.
I am going to be breeding argentines ,bolivian amarali as well as common bci... if the argies or amaralli are not responsive , i will not throw a common bci in there just so i can have babies.... i will wait and try again next season.

 

[Sasheena]

You might have a point.

To me it remains a theoretical exercise. A couple of times I have placed one kind of king with another... after about 2 minutes I've always decided that I lacked the patience (desire) to really see if I could make it work. But my curiousity remains unabated. I would like to see what some cross looks like. And yes, perhaps that is arrogance. Okay, so what?

In any case, if I DO ever end up crossing my snakes, they would only remain with me (the hybrids) or if they ended up "out there" they would only go to people who would know what they are. And this is also a big IF. IF I ever produce anything!

In all likelihood the most I will ever produce will be Jurassic Milks, since I happen to have a pair, and florida/eastern integrades, since I have a pair of those.

AGain this whole thing could be perhaps solved if there was some sort of pedigree system in place showing lineage etc. But alas, that's a dream.

I've heard a lot of the arguments against hybridization. I think one of the biggest reason I have never been convinced is because those who are doing the arguing have no ability to make the debate without making it personal. The instant someone resorts to name-calling their objectivity is called into question and their arguments lose any power they once had.

I'm not trying to debate FOR hybridization. nor AGAINST it. I would just love to see two non-personal-attack adversaries who can argue the case without spitting venom at one another at the same time. Perhaps those who feel "rabidly" about the issue one way or the other cannot possibly make their arguments in a way that makes it possible to give them credence?

Since I myself don't have a strong opinion on the issue (yes, a mild opinion, but not a STRONG one) I'm not the one to do the debating. But I am OPEN to hearing both sides, yet again.

AND before anyone attacks me and says that I have hybrids so I'm lying if I say I don't already have a strong opinion.... just because I own them doesn't mean I've bred them. Heck, if I'm convinced it's evil to breed them, I won't breed them. They don't cohabit, it's easy to keep them apart. My female jurassic won't even be breeding age until '06 at the earliest and most likely not until '07.

So debate away, if you can. I challenge both sides of the issue to a peaceful debate. You may get fired up by your cause, but see if you can do so without calling anyone names. Oh, and it is also useful if you don't try to use the word "ugly" as an argument, because that is truly subjective.

 

[Sasheena]

Robin, I think you posted your reply while I was posting. And yes, I probably will not breed my pyro to the jurassic. Just because I can doesn't mean I will... but I have thought about it.

The reason I have the integrades is because someone owed me some snakes to make up for a bad deal, I got the integrades as part of the deal, though I might not have sought them out, they are still quite beautiful.

In general I like my corns and kings and I really have no desire to mix corn and king. Mostly I will mix mixtures, if anything at all.

 

[Sasheena]

One of the largest arguments against hybridization I've heard was not really an argument, but just actions and words by a person selling an animal who was a hybrid/integrade...

I can't recall if they were selling white-sided or leucisistic cornsnakes. When someone asked them about their veracity, they said they'd done DNA testing. When later pressed they admitted that the animals had been bred to either texas or black rat (or both, I am going from memory here)... but because they were bred back to corns, and again back to corns, that the animals were genetically identical to corns, so he could sell them as cornsnakes and he would not be lying.

now THAT is an argument against hybridization... but more... it will happen no matter my opinion or anyone else's opinion. The more people are aware of the details of the pure animals, and perhaps the details of the hybrid animals, the more chance there is to avoid this sort of unethical behaviour.

 

[Boidaddic14]

the thing that worries me is when someone buys a snake most likely their going to want to breed it in the futures....say someone buys a cornxking so what are they going to breed it to king or corn? well like u said if u were to breed them then u'd breed them to the same thing well say a person buys that snake on plans of breeding it then u have a totally whacked out gene pool....my opinion on this is if you really like a certain snake say colubrids since thats what ur pic is then u'll leave them the way they were made because thats how u like them the way they were supposed to be not mixed with something else. sorry if that was somewhat confusing im kinda tired.
Eric

 

[robin d.]

another thing is that in ALOT of hybrid they are sterile... why? i do not know but i can speculate why.. and it is they were not meant to breed in the first place. also being the breeder of the hybrid or integrade.. you may be the responsible party but once those animals leave your hands who knows what others will sell them as... this is where ethics play a major role... yes you might create some beautiful animals and sell them for what they are but what the next person does or the person after that is where the problem lies... so we as breeders have take the ethical standpoint from the start

 

[Sasheena]

I've heard the "sterile" issue debated... heard some people claim that most of the hybrids are fertile, only few are sterile... others say it the other way around. If/when I ever create any hybrids of my own, I'll be taking a long hard look at these debates much more closely before I decide to sell them. If I knew of a combination that created sterile hybrids, I would have less qualms breeding them (if they were aesthetically pleasing to ME)... because 9/10ths of the arguments have to do with the animals polluting gene pools out there. They could not possibly pollute a gene pool if they are sterile.

 

[dwedeking]

I had a discussion concerning hybrids with a kingsnake breeder. One of the points we discussed is that we are seeing a very small snapshot of a species evolution. We say that "X" does not breed with "Y" in nature, as if the current status of anything is more than a blink of the eye considering the timeline we are talking about (in this case the timeline being the existance of snakes on this planet).

"another thing is that in ALOT of hybrid they are sterile... why? i do not know but i can speculate why.. and it is they were not meant to breed in the first place."

So following this logic, a coupling that produces offspring that is not sterile would be acceptable as that means they were meant to be bred

I think the ethical question, falls on whether the breeder keeps accurate records and forwards that information to the new owner then they have fulfilled their ethical duty. A person isn't necessarily ethical because they're never put in a position to lie, their ethical because when it counts they do the right thing.

Why I would consider hybridization of offspring. To experiment and discover new things (mostly colors and patterns). Same reason people work with "morphs" in geckos, snakes, etc. The sense of accomplishment (the one that people realize whether they breed two different locales/subspecies together and get a new patter or that someone breeding two same locale/species animals and gets good coloring or healthy offspring) that goes with breeding reptiles. It may be human arrogance but we're all guilty of that to one level or another, as we put two snakes in a box and then "brag" about all our hard work breeding

 

[robin d.]

So following this logic, a coupling that produces offspring that is not sterile would be acceptable as that means they were meant to be bred

ummm no, just because you can doesn't mean you should

i am guilty of breeding leos for color pattern ect. but the fact is you cant get any wc leos right now and locality information for that matter.... if and when we are able to bring in some wild caughts from known localities and the different species and subspecies... i'll be the first to get some, be assured of that. but what we have as of now is pretty much very pretty colored leo mutts, i love them and do breed them. but i would not do this in my snake room. most all of the boas in my snake room are locale specific or true specimens from a particular subspecies of boa constrictor, and some a combination of the two

 

[Sasheena]

I like that "just because we can doesn't mean we should". It's true. I could give all my students A's in math, but that doesn't mean I will. (much to their dismay).

The sterile/non-sterile issue is an interesting one that I haven't heard debated before. I'm interested in learning of some of the faces of that side of the debate.

I've spent some time looking at websites that have hybrids featured... I can think of two specific ones right off the top.... one leaves a sort of flavor of "Wow, this is very interesting" and the other does not.

Let me explain some of the characteristics of the two sites without (yet) mentioning what the sites are...

One has numerous photos of hybrids, some "ugly" and some "pretty" to me. All the pictures include detailed information about the heritage of the snakes. There is no attempt to sell the animals. It's not a very professional website, just someone showing what they have created. I find it interesting. I find it educational to a degree... some crosses look "ugly" to me no matter how enthusiastic the creator of the site is about them. I'm deterred from ever trying those crosses. Other crosses look "beautiful" to me, and I'm encouraged (if only I had the right ingredient snakes, which I don't and won't buy to create the cross either) to want to create. It's a good site. I like it, it increases my like for the hybrids, and decreases my own personal desire to create said hybrids... I can have my curiousity satisfied without putting in any of the work.

Another website I don't like is VERY professional. Gives absurd prices for the animals. I've taken the time to pull a photo or two off the site and put them into photoshop only to see that realistic coloring on the background results in a snake that is nothing like advertised. When asked about the composition of the snakes created the owner of the site will never give away his "secrets" and the result is a bunch of high priced, misrepresented, ancestors-unknown snakes that look beautiful (in the altered photos) but in the end do nothing positive for me. I learn nothing.

(okay, so I'm rambling) ... in any case, these are two examples of extremes in the hybridization market out there. Make whatever conclusions you wish from my comments.

 

[dwedeking]

ummm no, just because you can doesn't mean you should

Ok, then sterilization is not a condition about breeding two snakes.

Personally I don't think there is a logical argument for or against breeding hybrids. I mean it's ok if it's all we have to do (leopard geckos) but not ok if we do have the local information. If there is no desire or benefit to breeding hybrids/integrades then there should be no desire or benefit to breeding such animals as leopard geckos/corn snakes/bearded dragons yet these 3 are probably the most bred reptiles in captivity. Leopard geckos and corn snakes are probably the most experimented with breeding groups there are. A large percentage of the herp community finds enjoyment and a sense of accomplishment trying to discover the next "new thing".

 

[1216dex]

Sterility

I'm not for sure about snakes, but hybrids such as donkeys are sterile because of a difference in the chromosome number between donkeys and horses. I don't recall the exact number, but it's something like donkeys have 62, horses have 64, therefore mules have 63. A mule cannot reproduce because his Meiosis cannot occur evenly because he has an odd number of chrmosomes in the diploid state, making evenly split haploid sex cells an impossibility
Dusty Loy

 

[jnewsome26]

Hmmmm hybrids...

I see it as really coming down to a matter of goals. If your goal is a quality, attractive, pet or companion animal hybridization only makes sense. You select for the best traits from the widest pool possible to create an animal ideally suited for your purposes. Every single "pure bred" dog or cat on the pet market, and a fair amount of stock animals are the result of centuries of hybridization with the ultimate goal of producing an animal that was ideally suited to our purposes. Whether that was beauty, tractability, hunting, riding, war, whatever, we have for centuries manipulated the genes of animals for our own purposes. Is this ethical? Do we have the "right" to "play god"? That is ultimately an insoluble question. Each of us will have our own take on that based on our own basic assumptions. Myself, I believe that folks are pretty much free to do what they want so long as they take responsibility for their actions. If this means killing the horrible monster your breeding program has brought about, or fully informing prospective owners about the special needs of the new breed you have developed you'd better be fully prepared to do exactly that otherwise you have no business meddling in these things. Every single animal is a living being that deserves to live a full, healthy life just as much as you do. This means that it is your responsibility to provide for them even if in your mind they were a horrible mistake. That's your mistake, YOU take care of it!

Now, if your goal is the preservation of a naturally occurring species then of course, hybridization is the devil. Now, did "nature intend" for hybrids to exist? That's a lot more personal intent than I am willing to place on an impersonal force. One could argue that in a truly impersonal, random world anything can and will happen so those who choos to hybridize are simply manifesting the inevitable design of natural law.

Either way, I think there is plenty of room for both kinds of people in the hobby. The real issue here is one of honesty and record keeping. While no official registry may exist for reptiles, the more people that keep detailed records of their animal's ancestry, and demand those kinds of records from anyone they do business with the more often it will occur until eventually it becomes the default for the industry. Folks didn't used to demand pictures when buying animals from distant parties, but enough folks demanded it, and the technology existed to make it easy enough that seeing pictures of the animal you've ordered before buying it has become the industry standard. The technology exists that makes such record keeping easy, all it takes is a computer and Microsoft Excel now people just have to demand it.

JN

 

[Sasheena]

Wow, thank you for a very eloquent response! Bottom Line:

Be Honest

Keep Good Records

Examine your Goals Before Breeding

Take Responsibility for What You Create.

I like it.

 

[cthulhu77]

A perfect summation, and one that should be made into a poster ! Exactly !
"before you ask if you could, you should ask if you should..."

 

[Wilomn]

A perfect summation, and one that should be made into a poster ! Exactly !
"before you ask if you could, you should ask if you should..."

And if the answer is "yes" then it's Damn the Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead

aye, and a hearty Heigh Ho for them what's left behind, for them what's down below.....

Sorry, slipped into pirate mode, sort of, there for a minute.