The truth about Blue tegus!!

[varnyard]

http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-news/Vol-28/cbn-0111/AskVet.html

Linda Randall, DVM, ABVP: Is it possible to overdose a herp on calcium?
I have never been able to overdose a reptile with just calcium, nor have I spoken to a veterinarian who has. Reptiles are able to regulate the amount of calcium their body absorbs, and the rest is excreted in the feces. The problem begins when Vitamin D is added to the calcium mixture. This vitamin encourages the reptiles system to absorb excessive calcium, which eventually leads to hypercalcemia, a serious condition. The calcium to phosphorus ratio is also very important when looking at calcium levels in the food offered to reptiles, and when reading blood chemistry results. If you have a herp that requires calcium supplementation, make sure it is only calcium that you are using. (At our hospital we use calcium carbonate, which is inexpensive and comes in a fine powder.) For anything else, consult with your veterinarian first to ensure you are feeding your particular pet correctly. When you read labels, you will find that many of the products sold as calcium supplements have Vitamin D3 added. This is not necessarily a bonus!

In reptiles it is called acute hypercalcemia from acute vitamin D3 overdose this can result in calcification of the kidneys.

Also here is more info: http://www.anapsid.org/uvd3.html

 

[Lucille]

Thank you for the explanation and link.

 

[varnyard]

Thank you for the explanation and link.

You are more than welcome, you should also know I would not knowing give out wrong information on these animals. I am one of the few that is not in business for the cash, but rather a passion for the animals.

 

[Lucille]

I do believe that to be true, after reading a lot of what you have posted about tegus. I would buy from you in a heartbeat and know I was getting a healthy and well cared for animal.

 

[The BoidSmith]

What Bobby says is in part true. Any species can have overdoses of vitamins, particularly A and D. This has been described in Inuits that ate excessive amounts of seal livers as well as cats fed liver in excess. Vitamin D3 is synthesised in the skin by action of UV light. No UV light, no vitamin D3 synthesis, and thus no Ca absorption. Having said these an ADEQUATE amount of vitamin D3 in the diet can completely substitute the need for UV light. The animals will still bask because they need the termorregulation but you can provide all their needs with dietary D3. The example of the turkeys was extreme just to show that one of the most susceptible species to rickets (due to their rate of growth) can be raised optimally with only minimal exposure to regular light bulbs and an ADEQUATE amount of D3 in their diets.

Thanks.

 

[The BoidSmith]

What I believe happens with tegus though is that they are omnivorous, they eat both fruits, insects and other live prey. In captivity we want to provide them with a varied diet forgetting that with the exception of whole mice (with their liver) and liver itself are the only sources of vitamin D3. There is thus an absolute requirement for the animals to either be dietary supplemented or have UV light to synthesize the vitamin. Vitamin and mineral requirements of reptiles are very little known; there's not much research being done. It is thus safer to provide UV light and a varied diet but that doesn't mean that tegu could not live without UV light IF adequate dietary vitamin D3 is supplied. In fact ball pythons for example need vitamin D3 but they are mostly nocturnal, how do they solve it? By eating whole prey. Rattlesnakes bask in the sun, but they don't need it to synthesize D3 they might as well bask under a regular light bulb. Why? because they eat whole prey with plentiful supplies of D3 in their livers.

Regards.

 

[varnyard]

What Bobby says is in part true. Any species can have overdoses of vitamins, particularly A and D. This has been described in Inuits that ate excessive amounts of seal livers as well as cats fed liver in excess. Vitamin D3 is synthesised in the skin by action of UV light. No UV light, no vitamin D3 synthesis, and thus no Ca absorption. Having said these an ADEQUATE amount of vitamin D3 in the diet can completely substitute the need for UV light. The animals will still bask because they need the termorregulation but you can provide all their needs with dietary D3. The example of the turkeys was extreme just to show that one of the most susceptible species to rickets (due to their rate of growth) can be raised optimally with only minimal exposure to regular light bulbs and an ADEQUATE amount of D3 in their diets.

Thanks.

You are wrong, but welcome to have an opinion. I guess you know more than a DVM, I will never understand why some people will not agree when shown to be wrong. Taking a chance of calcification of the kidneys is a much better choice Dan, then the proper lighting. Thats what you are saying, correct? And turkeys are not tegus, they are not even close. To compare them in my opinion is just plain silly. So what you are saying might hold true in turkeys, I am not an expert on them, but it is far from fact with tegus.

BTW, what part of what I said is not true Dan, you said only part of it is true. What the Vet said was not true either, correct? You are also reaching way out, D3 is most often times taken from from lanolin, which is wool oil.

What I believe happens with tegus though is that they are omnivorous, they eat both fruits, insects and other live prey. In captivity we want to provide them with a varied diet forgetting that with the exception of whole mice (with their liver) and liver itself are the only sources of vitamin D3.

Wrong, way off there Dan

There is thus an absolute requirement for the animals to either be dietary supplemented or have UV light to synthesize the vitamin.

That would be fine if it worked, but is does not. There is no dietary supplement for UV.

Vitamin and mineral requirements of reptiles are very little known; there's not much research being done. It is thus safer to provide UV light and a varied diet but that doesn't mean that tegu could not live without UV light IF adequate dietary vitamin D3 is supplied.

How many tegus do you/have you had Dan?

In fact ball pythons for example need vitamin D3 but they are mostly nocturnal, how do they solve it? By eating whole prey. Rattlesnakes bask in the sun, but they don't need it to synthesize D3 they might as well bask under a regular light bulb. Why? because they eat whole prey with plentiful supplies of D3 in their livers.

You keep trying to reach out with your other species as examples to tegus, I will tell you what, why don't you feed your ball pythons fruit? Or give your turkeys some rats. All of these DIFFERENT animals have different requirements, to pit them together is just 110% silly.

Your information is very poor at best Dan, I don't understand why you are so stuck on giving bad info, I guess it is pride and the lack of admission when you are wrong.

 

[varnyard]

I have done the research, it did the study.

I have seen this twitching before in tegus that did not have UV lighting, it is not a pretty sight. Basically, some of the animals looked like they were suffering minor convulsions. As for tegu twitching, I think it is well known that Calcium deficiency is probably the leading killer of tegus in captivity. I think it can also be from an environmental problem, such as tegus becoming too hot, and maybe the answer to this trembling and twitching.
But remember, a diet abundant in calcium will do your tegus no good if the calcium to phosphorus ratio is not correct. It will also be a useless mineral if vitamin D3 is not present - a vitamin most easily obtained through exposure to unfiltered sunlight, or UV lighting. However, vitamin D3 is not a substitute for UV lighting, it also can be overdosed if not fed sparingly. Excess vitamin D3 supplementation, especially in combination with calcium may result in organ toxicity.

Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gout is a common clinical sign of this problem, (calcium hydroxyapatite) deposits usually appear as irregular firm swellings over joints in the limbs and on ribs, back bones, this also can be seen in the head shapes, often times disfigurement can be seen in the animals. I use UV lighting and I use supplements. This has worked great for me, as the old saying goes; if it is not broke, don't fix it. In my opinion supplements are not a replacement and it is not worth taking a chance. I think UV lighting is a much better choice in any case. However, I do not think tegus would have the same problems that green iguanas have shown. Tegus are omnivores; the intake of calcium is much higher due to the intake of rodents. It is improper calcium metabolism what leads to MBD, and that is because of improper calcium metabolism the body takes what it needs from the bones, thus causing MBD. And sometimes you will find that some reptiles do not absorb enough calcium even with the right vitamins and proper diet, their bodies throws it off as waste. It is rare, but does happen. The deposition of calcium in the internal organs, this is primarily found in arboreal lizards, iguanas, chameleons and anoles. The only terrestrial lizard I have heard of having this problem is Swifts.

I have heard that vitamin supplements with D3 were a great substitute for UV lighting. I have disagreed about this from the first time this discussion was brought up. This only confirms my belief on a way to sell albino tegus with an excuse that UV is not needed and can be substituted with vitamin D3. UV lighting is working to keep healthy tegus; it is also not a risk as with using this supplement. The big question would be, would you depend on supplements that are not proven to be sufficient, verses UV lighting that we all know works just fine? In my opinion, it is not worth taking the risks.

I would say that the supplements are just that. They are not a substitute for UV lighting. For a healthy tegu, I will still recommend UV lighting, as well as supplements. But I will not say you need one without the other unless they are housed outside with natural sunlight. I still use a vitamin supplements however. Tegus fed rodents and that have proper UV lighting do not require added D3.

D3 has been found to be toxic in reptiles if given in excess. What is excess? I don't know, but I do know that when adding D3 to the diet as a substitute for UV lighting it does not work. Also proper lighting is not toxic, D3 is.

I will admit there are plenty of sites out there saying that the UV can be substituted with D3, however, most of them are by sellers that have Albinos and need this ploy to sell them, knowing they can not handle the needed lighting.

 

[Lucille]

I'm thinking that what you say about UV benefitting lizards is correct Bobby.

I am not saying that we shouldn't do what is best for our critters, of course we should; but still I have a continuing interest about how this is played out at the cellular level and why the body recognizes one chemical formulation in a different manner than another.

Not only in reptiles, but in general, as some people say that vitamins from let's say fruits and vegetables, for people, are somehow different and better than the one-a-day vitamins in a bottle, and others take issue with this.

 

[Lucille]

I just thought of another interesting question: How do reptiles regulate UV so that they do not get too much?

 

[varnyard]

I'm thinking that what you say about UV benefitting lizards is correct Bobby.

I am not saying that we shouldn't do what is best for our critters, of course we should; but still I have a continuing interest about how this is played out at the cellular level and why the body recognizes one chemical formulation in a different manner than another.

Not only in reptiles, but in general, as some people say that vitamins from let's say fruits and vegetables, for people, are somehow different and better than the one-a-day vitamins in a bottle, and others take issue with this.

I will ask you this, what advice are you going to give a new keeper of a new hatchling tegu Lucille and Dan? I mean, all they need is a warm shoe box to help them digest their food, and plenty of D3 added to every meal to take the place of the proper UV lighting. Hell, then when it dies you guys can claim there must have been something wrong with the animal.

You either give them the proper care that works, or don't keep them. I have given you both the information needed and that works for the proper care of tegus. It is not the same care for turkeys or ball pythons, but for tegus. I seen first hand what substituting D3 for UV does in tegus, it does not work. The claims were proven to be false, but believe as you wish. I will not waste my time in a lost cause of proving this any farther, I have better things to do. The truth is out there if you are not blind, just open your eyes and look at it.

 

[Lucille]

Bobby,
This conversation is not for me, about giving care. We've already established that we need to do what is best for our critters. And I do believe you care for your critters.
This is a scientific inquiry, out of interest in the subject.
I do not mind if you don't participate, but I really don't think exploration of fact and a request to all to see if there is more particularized information available is a waste of time.
Without freely given information and exchange of ideas, with no attached recrimination, there will be no scientific advances.
And ultimately those advances may benefit reptiles. Inquiries such as this certainly has let to scientific breakthroughs for people, the same sort of open intellectual inquiry will hopefully benefit our critters as well.

 

[varnyard]

I just thought of another interesting question: How do reptiles regulate UV so that they do not get too much?

Tegus have hides, mine go underground when they have enough basking time. If they do get too much UV, I guess we would just call that a suntan/burn I guess.

 

[varnyard]

Bobby,
This conversation is not for me, about giving care. We've already established that we need to do what is best for our critters. And I do believe you care for your critters.
This is a scientific inquiry, out of interest in the subject.
I do not mind if you don't participate, but I really don't think exploration of fact and a request to all to see if there is more particularized information available is a waste of time.
Without freely given information and exchange of ideas, with no attached recrimination, there will be no scientific advances.
And ultimately those advances may benefit reptiles. Inquiries such as this certainly has let to scientific breakthroughs for people, the same sort of open intellectual inquiry will hopefully benefit our critters as well.

I will say this one more time; D3 does not work as a substitute for proper UV lighting in tegus. I have seen it with my own eyes.

I will tell you what, go put water in your empty gas tank, and fill it up, see if it works. Then when it does not work, make the claim it was because you did not use spring water.

That is just as silly as this, it does not work, just as with the water you could use for your gas. Then someone can claim that the gas is a liquid, and must have water in it, and the water works in cows to make part of their energy they use.

Now you see my point?

 

[The BoidSmith]

I will say this one more time; D3 does not work as a substitute for proper UV lighting in tegus. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Bobby,

You seem to think I want to argue with you and it's not true. First two animals is hardly a nutritional study, it's an anecdotal observation.

I guess you know more than a DVM, I will never understand why some people will not agree when shown to be wrong.

Know more than most who deal with reptiles? More than likely. And you know why? Because I am a DVM that has dealt with reptiles for over 20 years.

Taking a chance of calcification of the kidneys is a much better choice Dan, then the proper lighting.

When overdosing vitamin D3 calcification of the kidneys is not my main concern, calcification of the arteries is.

Quote:

What I believe happens with tegus though is that they are omnivorous, they eat both fruits, insects and other live prey. In captivity we want to provide them with a varied diet forgetting that with the exception of whole mice (with their liver) and liver itself are the only sources of vitamin D3.

Wrong, way off there Dan

What part of my statement above is wrong Bobby?

Quote:
There is thus an absolute requirement for the animals to either be dietary supplemented or have UV light to synthesize the vitamin.


That would be fine if it worked, but is does not. There is no dietary supplement for UV.

You seem to have misinterpreted what I said there. Let me explain it again, animals that do not eat preformed vitamin D3, need UV exposure to synthesize.

How many tegus do you/have you had Dan?

How many tegus in my 40 years keeping reptiles? You mean besides keeping them in captivity, breeding them, studying their behavior in the wild and in captivity? That's a tough question to answer, ...I never kept count.

You keep trying to reach out with your other species as examples to tegus, I will tell you what, why don't you feed your ball pythons fruit? Or give your turkeys some rats. All of these DIFFERENT animals have different requirements, to pit them together is just 110% silly.

Your information is very poor at best Dan, I don't understand why you are so stuck on giving bad info, I guess it is pride and the lack of admission when you are wrong.

With a DVM, a MS in animal nutrition (1987), and a PhD in animal nutrition (1997) I don't feel my information is very poor and silly. You have been reading quite a bit, I'll have to concede you that.

Best regards

Dan

 

[Seamus Haley]

Your information is very poor at best Dan, I don't understand why you are so stuck on giving bad info, I guess it is pride and the lack of admission when you are wrong.

So far, his information has been accurate and- this is the important part- comprehensive.

Where your information has been situational and targeted to a specific user group with the intention of producing a result.

His is more accurate.

Yours is more useful for someone who doesn't understand his.

I find myself oddly reminded of those television commercials for macintosh computers where people introduce themselves as "Mac" and "PC". Kind of a... "Hi, I've got a doctorate and will explain exactly what is happening physiologically using the most specific terms possible." "And I'm user friendly to help people without that educational background succeed in keeping animals alive in their homes."

 

[Seamus Haley]

I just thought of another interesting question: How do reptiles regulate UV so that they do not get too much?

Ohyeah... and to this, there's another answer as well.

Given a basic premise of a UV source that is not exceeding the radiation thrown off by the sun and which is not going to physically injure the animal, there isn't such a thing as "too much" when talking about D3 synthesis.

Under normal conditions the animal's body generates as much as it needs, as it needs it and there's no danger of toxicity (again working with the understanding of a normal, healthy animal removing rare and extenuating circumstaces and health conditions).

When it's being spooned in one end as a suppliment, more care needs to be taken to make sure it's being dosed out properly and to monitor the results.

The scism here between Dan and Bobby seems to be based around their slightly different perceptions of what the conversation is addressing. Everything Dan has said is factual. Everything Bobby has said is practical. Hypothetically if one were to have access to the ability to regularly analyze an animal's system in it's minutia, they could keep the calcium absorbtion and D3 levels perfectly balanced while depriving the animal of UV entirely through the use of nothing but suppliments. Practically, it's not something most owners are experienced, educated and importantly, equipped to do in their home and so allowing the animal to synthesize it's own is going to produce the best results.

 

[varnyard]

Dan: How many tegus in my 40 years keeping reptiles? You mean besides keeping them in captivity, breeding them, studying their behavior in the wild and in captivity? That's a tough question to answer, ...I never kept count.

Great, then you can screen shot your findings? You did keep books on all of that studying, correct? What part of South America did you go to? Do tell us, you studied tegus in the wild and never shared it with us Dan? Shame on you!! I take it you have pictures of them in the wild that YOU took?

And you are a DVM? I am sorry your honor, I should have bowed down or something. As the old saying goes, there are good vets and bad vets, and we all have opinions. To make the claim to substitute D3 after seeing the proof, kind of makes me want to look for a better source of divine DVM knowledge.

 

[varnyard]

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=U...e=n-4017401111_q-R52yVETBpGDKOCEjXpEhNgAAAA@@

When doing a search on Dan Garcia as a Veterinarian, it comes up blank, am I missing something here Dan? I am not coming up with anything on a DVM in the Midwest with that name. I figured with the 40 years you have your name would pop right up.

 

[Jim O]

Great, then you can screen shot your findings? You did keep books on all of that studying, correct? What part of South America did you go to? Do tell us, you studied tegus in the wild and never shared it with us Dan? Shame on you!! I take it you have pictures of them in the wild that YOU took?

And you are a DVM? I am sorry your honor, I should have bowed down or something. As the old saying goes, there are good vets and bad vets, and we all have opinions. To make the claim to substitute D3 after seeing the proof, kind of makes me want to look for a better source of divine DVM knowledge.

Bobby, I respect your knowledge and experience and I love your passion for tegus but that was totally uncalled for. You asked for it. You pushed and pushed and finally Dan cited his credentials and his history. Maybe that will teach you not to ask a question to which do not already know the answer.

As for screen shots of his research et al, that may be pending publication and he is certainly under no obligation to produce it here. His integrity is unchallenged on this site. If he says it is so I believe him, and I believe most others do as well. Similarly, I have no reason to believe that he is fabricating his educational background. I'm certain that he could produce the necessary documentation, but in my opinion there is no need.