These Four Questions

[thesnakeman]

I changed the title of this thread because folks were drifting from my objective. The original title eluded to the "Big Can of worms "thread, and how it seemed to be a lost cause. Now lets focus on this, and forget the chit chat please. Thanks.

As for the edit button, mine works. Not sure why yours doesn't.

I'm seeing folks I have not seen in some time around here. And THAT is a good thing. Clearly each of us thinks and feels something about the indigo. And clearly each of us has both passionate, and intelligent things to say, and contribute. Each of us should. Government officials, private breeders, zoos, and anyone else who cares about the long term survival of this species. And as I have said before, All are welcome to do so equally here, and I do not wish to be in charge, or to exclude anyone. I'd much rather include everyone. And I recognize that I appear overzealous to some, so I nominate Jeff Snodgres, for Pres., as I think he's the best man for it. All in favor say "I", all opposed name someone else. And I think we have great need for a unified, coodrdinated effort, between all parties who have any kind of stake in the future of this species. We are all linked together, in some way, to that species. So we should form an alliance based solely on that premise. I have thrown around the idea of "Indigos Forever". It's for everyone to take part in who wants to. But we can call it whatever you guys want. Just like the T-shirts I'm working on. The next, and hopefully final version is making progress. I would like to see the website do the same, hint hint. And as far as I'm concerned, each of you can call me whatever you want. It does not bother me. What bothers me is these 4 questions,...

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?
2. If not, why not?
3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?
4.Where do we start, and when?
I think if we could limit the scope of this thread to answer those 4 questions, I'd be very interested to see the results of everyone's opinion. And I do mean everyone. I will abstain from interacting throughout until everyone had ample opportunity to respond.
T.

 

[kmurphy]

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?
2. If not, why not?
3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?
4.Where do we start, and when?

Captive and wild populations are of equal importance but may as well be on different planets. You can't collect indigos, nor release them into the wild, so what happens with the captive population has no affect on the wild population.

Obviously the best survival plan for any species would be the protection of its habitat. Hypothetically speaking, you could dump all the babies born each year into the wild and it would do little if they had no where to live.

I try to read any article I come accross regarding wild indigos. My impression is that wild populations are pretty stable, in fact if population alone were the only factor, then there could be a case made for removing them from the Federal list. However, habitat loss is such that this would be foolish. I am sure someone is going to say I am wrong about this and I very well may be. I have never seen studies only articles.

As for the captive populations my preference would be for them to remain true Indigos. Once you start playing the morph game you then begin setting the locality breeders against the morph breeders. Then someday the true indigos are lost in captivity and all have some "morph" in them. That is basically what's happened with kingsnakes today. IMO.

 

[epidemic]

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?

This would depend upon who you ask, as most field biologists would state the wild population is of greater importance, as the group represents part of an ecological niche within its native habitat, something captive populations do not, with the exception of captive assurance colonies.

2. If not, why not?

Field biologists are not going to be all that interested in specimens produced in captivity, as they are not subject to the variety of conditions wild specimens are and will never be suitable for release into existing habitat where the species has been extirpated.
Gary Johnson, a senior herp keeper at the Louisville Zoo and a very long time keeper of Drys, and I discussed the effects captivity has had upon several species. Snakes tend to harbor an exceptional olfactory system, which they depend upon for several aspects of their survival and it is apparent a great extent of this is lost after several generations of captive breeding and being confined indoors within enclosures.
Anyhow, most field biologists do not find value, financial or entertainment wise, in keeping specimens of interest in captivity and many do not believe the behaviors demonstrated by captive specimens will accurately convey to specimens in the wild.
Whereas, hobbyists often believe they might be called upon to help with repatriation projects or to provide data for beneficial research projects in the future.


3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?

As I said, those at the front line of D. couperi conservation do not believe captive D. couperi populations are as important as wild populations, as there is little risk of the captive population completely disappearing, but such is not the case for several wild populations. While I doubt the species as a whole will disappear from the wild anytime soon, I do believe much work needs to be completed to prevent the extirpation of several populations in the way of habitat preservation, by identifying suitable habitat where populations still remain and preventing the development and fragmentation of such.
The only captive populations which have a chance to become equal to wild populations would be assurance colonies, but no specimens would come from the existing captive population.

4. Where do we start, and when?

You start by lobbying officials in positions to make change and supporting organizations which recognize the needs of the species, such as the Nature Conservancy and Gopher Tortoise Trust. It also helps to make those residing in the home range of D. couperi aware of what is happening and what they stand to lose. Once many people have the knowledge of such and start speaking out, legislators begin listening and doing something. The article within the Miami Sun Times, regarding the plight of the Gopher Tortoise stirred a lot of emotion and spread the word on the home front and keeping such messages circulating will definitely be of benefit.


Kevin made mention of the difference between locality breeders and morph breeders. Unfortunately, there are no breeders of D. couperi harboring accurate locality data regarding their animals, as the species has been protected since 1973 and very few private hobbyist maintained such data back then and though wild specimens have made their way into the captive populations, I doubt anyone has maintained locality records, as the specimens involved would be illegal. Also, there are some legal WC and early filial generation specimens within zoological institutions, but the locality data from such cannot be deemed accurate in most cases.

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[keepergale]

I have enjoyed the extra busy forum lately. Its nice to see so much interest and intensity. Jeff your previous post mentioned olfactory loss in multi generational captives. I don't doubt this but I am curious how they proved it.
Was there some kind of test or was this more of a personal observation type of thing?

 

[epidemic]

Thanks, Gale / Tony!

Hello, Gale,

I should have worded that differently, as I do not believe the olfactory system has been reduced in the physiological sense, but rather the efficacy of such has been reduced from lack of exposure and requirement.

Thanks, Tony!

But as you know, I have too many irons in the fire as it is and while I enjoy helping out when possible, I really do not believe I have the time to organize and lobby for such an organization. I believe such an organization would be better benefited by someone who could invest the time such an effort would require to be successful. You’re a very passionate individual when it comes to all things Drymarchon, so I believe you would make a great candidate…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

You start by lobbying officials in positions to make change and supporting organizations which recognize the needs of the species, such as the Nature Conservancy and Gopher Tortoise Trust. It also helps to make those residing in the home range of D. couperi aware of what is happening and what they stand to lose. Once many people have the knowledge of such and start speaking out, legislators begin listening and doing something. The article within the Miami Sun Times, regarding the plight of the Gopher Tortoise stirred a lot of emotion and spread the word on the home front and keeping such messages circulating will definitely be of benefit.

Best regards,

Jeff

The South Florida SunSentinel articles really made interest in the Gophers take off here. I think they were instramental in getting the protective status of the Torts upgraded recently. :scatter:

Hopefully,TPTB won't do their usual developer influenced footdragging to avoid actually passing some regs to put teeth into the new staus.

Maybe there will be some trickle down effect on those other animals which use those tortoise burrows.

 

[epidemic]

Whoops! My bad!

You're absolutely right Lloyd,

The article I was referring to was published within the South Florida SunSentinel. My, it has been a long while since I have lived in the Sunshine State, as I had three different papers mixed up! The South Florida SunSentinel, the Miami Herald and the Marco Island sun-Times!!

Thansk for setting the record straight, Lloyd!

Jeff

PS: How are the pines doing??

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Yeah, it's great to see one of the local fishwraps get involved and do some good!

The Pines are doing great and are very impressive, especially at dinner time!! Everyone that sees them, just says: "Oh,Wow".

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

"doing" rather.

Why can't we edit in this forum? It's not the BOI.....

 

[epidemic]

There you go, Lloyd!

I fixed it for you, though I'm not sure why you were unable to edit it yourself. Perhaps it's a MOD thing! ;0) Heck, if you read through many of my posts, it becomes obvious that my fingers are blind, or suffering from dyslexia, or both! ;0)

Glad to hear the pines are doing well and that everyone is impressed with them. I really enjoyed working with them, but felt as though my Drys needed the extra time and room.

I hate it that you cannot work with D. couperi down there, but the erebennus and rubidus are graet to work with as well...

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[BWSmith]

but the erebennus and rubidus are graet to work with as well...

I have been trying to find erebennus for almost a year.

 

[epidemic]

Bw

I have had nothing but bad luck with my erebennus eggs both this year and last, but I know Mike Meade, Brian Sharp and, I believe, Terry Wright had success with them this year and you may wish to check with them.
I have two pairs lined up to go this fall and I will keep you updated regarding such.

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I fixed it for you, though I'm not sure why you were unable to edit it yourself. Perhaps it's a MOD thing! ;0) Heck, if you read through many of my posts, it becomes obvious that my fingers are blind, or suffering from dyslexia, or both! ;0)

Glad to hear the pines are doing well and that everyone is impressed with them. I really enjoyed working with them, but felt as though my Drys needed the extra time and room.

I hate it that you cannot work with D. couperi down there, but the erebennus and rubidus are graet to work with as well...

Best regards,

Jeff

Thanks. BTW, if your erebennus and rubidus babies are not all spoken for, please keep me in mind.

 

[G I Joe]

I changed the title of this thread because folks were drifting from my objective. The original title eluded to the "Big Can of worms "thread, and how it seemed to be a lost cause. Now lets focus on this, and forget the chit chat please. Thanks.

As for the edit button, mine works. Not sure why yours doesn't.

I'm seeing folks I have not seen in some time around here. And THAT is a good thing. Clearly each of us thinks and feels something about the indigo. And clearly each of us has both passionate, and intelligent things to say, and contribute. Each of us should. Government officials, private breeders, zoos, and anyone else who cares about the long term survival of this species. And as I have said before, All are welcome to do so equally here, and I do not wish to be in charge, or to exclude anyone. I'd much rather include everyone. And I recognize that I appear overzealous to some, so I nominate Jeff Snodgres, for Pres., as I think he's the best man for it. All in favor say "I", all opposed name someone else. And I think we have great need for a unified, coodrdinated effort, between all parties who have any kind of stake in the future of this species. We are all linked together, in some way, to that species. So we should form an alliance based solely on that premise. I have thrown around the idea of "Indigos Forever". It's for everyone to take part in who wants to. But we can call it whatever you guys want. Just like the T-shirts I'm working on. The next, and hopefully final version is making progress. I would like to see the website do the same, hint hint. And as far as I'm concerned, each of you can call me whatever you want. It does not bother me. What bothers me is these 4 questions,...

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?
2. If not, why not?
3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?
4.Where do we start, and when?
I think if we could limit the scope of this thread to answer those 4 questions, I'd be very interested to see the results of everyone's opinion. And I do mean everyone. I will abstain from interacting throughout until everyone had ample opportunity to respond.
T.

Hi new guy here, I'm in the army and have been a snake guy my hole life. I would like to breed Indigos just to release most of them into the wild. There is enough other types to make money off of that are not endangered. This is one of the great snakes of our country. I'll be at Fort Stewart GA for the next few years, need info on obtaining a couple to start. Thanks

 

[mmeade]

You can't do it...

Hi new guy here, I'm in the army and have been a snake guy my hole life. I would like to breed Indigos just to release most of them into the wild. There is enough other types to make money off of that are not endangered. This is one of the great snakes of our country. I'll be at Fort Stewart GA for the next few years, need info on obtaining a couple to start. Thanks

Sorry, but you can't keep eastern indigos in Georgia. And releasing them into the wild could do much more harm than good, so never do that.

 

[BWSmith]

Hi new guy here, I'm in the army and have been a snake guy my hole life. I would like to breed Indigos just to release most of them into the wild. There is enough other types to make money off of that are not endangered. This is one of the great snakes of our country. I'll be at Fort Stewart GA for the next few years, need info on obtaining a couple to start. Thanks

It is 100 times easier to get permits for an Alligator in GA than for an indigo. In order to obtain permits for an indigo in GA, you must go through a lot. You generally need an exhibition license and then submit a proposal to have couperi added. This then goes through nongame wildlife and the permit unit. Being a protected species, 99% of applications are denied and I am only aware of 2 private individuals permitted to keep them. Even if permits are approved, it is limited to one as breeding of any native nonvenomous Georgia species is strictly prohibited. In order to get a permit, you must be able to demonstrate that you are getting for educational purposes to even be considered. Once you have the exhibition license for a couple years, they MAY consider you as a candidate if you have been very active in public education. After having that permit for a 2-5 years, you can submit a proposal to obtain a single couperi and expect about 6 months to 2 years for approval, but most people get denied within a short period.

Any release programs are strictly instituted through DNR generally through a headstart program. Georgia has actually done very well with such programs for other species such as the Bog Turtles which are now breeding in the wild. But there are no immediate plans to institute a program for couperi as the parents would have to locale specific wild caught specimens. The release of captive animals is prohibited.

In GA, couperi permits are among the most coveted and difficult to obtain. I actually would not even consider them unless you planning to spend a decade or more in the state. If you do plan on living in GA that long, then I can give you a little guidance. Hopefully in the upcoming years, permits will be easier to obtain.

 

[thesnakeman]

1.Please re-direct this topic back to the general discusion forum.
2. Never, ever release indigos into the wild.
3. Never even think about keeping one in Ga,. Al., Mis, or Fl. If you do, and you get caught you may find yourself stationed at Ft/ Leavenworth.

 

[epidemic]

While breeding 100’s of babies within captivity and releasing them into the wild, may seem like a viable idea, the truth of the matter is, there is evidence which suggest doing such can prove to be even more detrimental to existing populations and the specimens released than beneficial.
A study by conducted by Dodd and Seigel, et al 1991; Relocation, Repatriation and Translocation of Amphibians and Reptiles: Are they conservation strategies that work? Has revealed; RRT projects utilizing reptiles and amphibians have not demonstrated any significant degree of success as conservation strategies and should not be utilized as acceptable management practices. Their findings were based on their research of every compiled study available regarding the use of RRT in an area of management and research.

There are several areas which must be covered, when considering the release or relocation of a specimen:

1.Enough available suitable habitat: Eastern indigos utilize very large home ranges. A single male will utilize over 700 acres of land as a home range and
it is estimated 10,000 acres of undisturbed habitat are required to
maintain a viable wild population.

2. Genetic diversity: Since the D,. couperi have been federally protected since 1973, there is a very limited gene pool to work with in captivity and no one can not trace the lineage of their captive specimens back to their WC origins. Also, there have been a few unscrupulous breeders out there who have integrated D. couperi to other members of the Drymarchon complex. To this regard, a baseline DNA analysis would have to be established and all potential subjects for introduction into the wild would have to be tested and meet the outlined genetic criteria, a very expensive and time consuming process.

3. Keystone species: D. couperi tend to rely on a keystone species, in part, for their survival. Gopherus polyphemus play an instrumental role in regards to the survival of D. couperi. It has been documented, where Gopher Tortoises have been extirpated, generally, so have eastern Indigos.

4. Existing populations: Releasing a group of captive produced, or translocated specimens, into an area containing a wild, viable population of the same species, can pose a negative impact in the form of competition for food and range for both the native and introduced animals. There is also a risk regarding the spread of pathogens from a captive group into a wild group, and vice versa. This was the case in California, regarding a few of the Gopherus agassizii populations there, when well intended and informed researchers introduced a group of captive produced specimens to boost a slowly declining yet viable population. The results were detrimental to both wild and introduced specimens, as the introduced group harbored a mycoplasma infection the wild group had no resistance to.

There is currently a great deal of research being conducted regarding D. couperi and NASA has one of the longest running studies, regarding this species, at the Kennedy Space Center and other areas within Eastern Central Florida. This study has been financed by the Bailey Wildlife Foundation, United States Air Force, NASA and a few other entities I am certain to be leaving out. This study is now entering its sixth year and has been focused on such areas as range and habitat requirements, issues regarding mortality, causation of decline and reproductive habits. Subjects are tracked via PIT (Passive Integrated Transponder) tagging, which allows researchers to follow subjects remotely via radio-telemetry.
There is another study underway in Georgia, regarding a population there. This study began as the result of a newspaper article, which highlighted the killing of an eight foot black snake by a group of teenagers, as it turns out, the snake was an Eastern Indigo and researchers convened upon the area, as it was believed that D. couperi had been extirpated from that part of their range.
I commend you on your interest regarding Eastern indigos and the best thing an individual can do, to assist with their plight, is educate themselves regarding the species and pass that knowledge on to others.
Anyhow, as others have indicated, it would be highly unlikely you would be granted a permit to keep D. couperi within GA and I would highly recommend you learn as much as you can about teh genus as a whole, while looking into the acqusition of other members of the Dry clan, as such an acqusition will give you the experience of owning a member of this magnificent genus and better prepare you for teh acquisition and captive maintenance of an eastern Indigo, once you have settled within a state which will allow you to keep such...

Best regards,

Jeff