Thinking about trying something out here...

[WebSlave]

I have had people ask me for some sort of simplified rating system for people that have been the topics of discussion on the BOI.  Some people just don't want to read reams of messages about someone in order to form an opinion.  What they want is something similar to Ebay's rating system to show at a glance what the general consensus is about someone they are considering doing business with.

With this in mind, I have explored the capabilities of the polling function in this message board system.  I have created a new category and put in a test forum for you all to take a look at this idea I am trying out:
Poll testing area

There are some issues that I will need to address, and your input will be helpful for me to determine if this will be a wise idea or not.

The biggest drawback (or is it?) will be that voting in the polls will be anonymous.  The votes are not traceable back to the person making the vote.  There will, of course, be the opportunity for abuse, but fortunately a registered member ONLY, can vote, and they can ONLY vote one time in each poll.  So perhaps that will limit it somewhat.

I will set up the forum so that I am the only one whom can create a new poll.  This will keep it structured and prevent duplicates that would certainly show up.  It will also put a burden on me, as anyone wanting to enter a name into the rating system will have to send that information to me (or maybe I can designate someone for this chore).

A poll can be set up in two ways:

(1)  Allow no replies to the original message. It will be a POLL ONLY thread.  This is probably a good thing, as the discussion really should remain in the BOI, and this would just be an enhanced section to compliment what is in the BOI.  The drawback to this method, however, is that the program is written in such a way that even I cannot edit the information in the original message.  This probably is an oversight in the programming, but it is a concern.  People and businesses will change their contact info, and I will have no way to update that information without going directly into the database to do it.  This will not be very time efficient to do.

(2)  Allow messages to be posted along with the voting process in the polls.  My gut feeling is that this would not be a good idea as it would just cause a parallel thread and duplicate what is already being said on the BOI.  I think very few people will refrain from adding comments if there is nothing to stop them from doing so.  But at least I would be able to edit the contact information as needed.

Ideally what I would like is to be able to block everyone from adding messages but be able to edit that original message containing the contact info.  Unfortunately, they appear to be mutually exclusive options, so I will have to pick one over the other.

If you all think this is workable, I would like to come up with a name for the forum that will be self explanatory to anyone reading it.  Some ideas that pop into mind:

BOI Rating System
At A Glance Ratings
Thumbnail Ratings
etc......

Also, I widened the spread of options on how someone could vote on a business or person.  Just having GOOD GUY and BAD GUY as options seemed too much of a straightjacket, but if simpler is better, tell me that's what you would prefer.  I think more options might just be more confusing, so these appear to be a happy medium, to me anyway:

() Excellent!
() Good Guy
() OK, but nothing special
() Not so good
() Bad Guy
() The Worst!

So take a look at this test area and tell me what you think about it.  I am undecided if I should just accept emails with applications for names to put into the rating system or if I should just open up another forum for people to post them there for me to go through.  I'm open to suggestions to this one.  If I twist someone's arm to help me moderate this aspect of this site, probably having a separate forum would be easier to manage.  The preliminary entries would just come from the threads that already exist on the BOI, of course.

Thanks for your help.

 

[John Apple]

sounds like a good idea, but I think people that haven't delt with the individual being polled will post anyhow
still a neet idea though <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

 

[Casey Hulse]

I think it would work, if it was not an anonomous poll. I know on E-bay, with bidding, 1 or 2 negative feedbacks can be the reason an item recieves no bids. I think that the boi, as it is right now, serves the same purpose, and trolls and flamers are soon weeded out. Could the thread topics be alphabetized by individuals names to facilitate an easier search? I think that most "consumers" will enjoy reading the various threads. (I do)

 

[Rainbowboaman]

Without being able to see who's posting I don't think its legit way to rate a business or person. As you can see from the amout of post certain people make that they are online most of day & could just rate themselves all day. If you could get a poll that tracable it would be killier idea as long as the individual has to be registered to BOI to vote.
Just My two cents.
Chris Pearson

 

[WebSlave]

As mentioned in my original message, a person HAS to be registered in order to vote in a poll, and they can only vote once per registered name.

This will NOT replace the BOI, it will be in addition to.  It can be set up to only allow the poll to be voted on, and leave the posting of detailed messages in the actual BOI.

I do not believe it would work if I just attempted to add a poll to the threads in the actual BOI, because there is no way for me to control the creation of a new thread.  Which means there will be a lot of duplicates.  People will seldom search the forum to see if a thread already exists about someone they are interested in posting comments about and will post a new thread rather than spend that time.

As far as the problem of the votes being anonymous, I don't believe it is any better or worse than what is posted in the BOI.  Anyone can sign in using a HOTMAIL account and put a false name on their message.  Obviously I cannot verify them all.  But in most cases, I believe the truth will prevail if enough people are participating.

 

[suefrederick]

I think you might need to add "extenuating circumstances - good guy" and "extenuating circumstances -  bad guy", but if there is no way to put remarks, that might not work. I like the idea, and vote for no comments, just the rating.
sue frederick

 

[blkmagic]

It's a really good idea for everything only thng is now you'll have even more to do . thxs for thinking of it

 

[Boasnsuch]

I think its a good idea.  Is there any way you could put a permant link in the message area that leads to a page you could update with the info?  Perhaps that may solve the problem of changing contact information.  Or perhaps a link that automatically searches the BOI for threads about the person being rated?  Either method would prevent people from adding duplicate messages to the polls, while allowing you to keep up-to-date information available.

Great work!

Kara

 

[WebSlave]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Is there any way you could put a permant link in the message area that leads to a page you could update with the info?  
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That would be really labor intensive, as it would take another couple of steps to be able to update that page.  Plus I doubt many people would be inclined to use it to take a look to see that information.   If I had more time available, I could write my own PHP script to do this edit for me.  Maybe I can talk Danni Wilson into something like that.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Or perhaps a link that automatically searches the BOI for threads about the person being rated?  
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That would be even more complicated.  Even though I can sort the forum these polls will reside in via the topic line (which will ONLY contain the name of the person/business being voted on), I suspect most people might use the search feature at the beginning to find all threads about the person they are interested in.

I am inclined to use a person's full name as the sort criteria, since people will change business names more often than their given name.  But that really only applies to a one man show type of business.  Neil Gubitz or The Snake Pit of Tampa, and Dave Lawson of Lawson's Reptiles are prime examples of this.  In those cases, I would list the topic line as 'Gubitz, Neil - The Snake Pit of Tampa', and 'Lawson, Dave - Lawson's Reptiles'.  That way the poll forum will sort by last name and display the entries in alphabetical order.

Something like Big Apple Herpetological, or LLL Reptiles would be a different situation entirely.  I will have to give this one some thought.

It's a shame there isn't an option to be able to sort that forum by the sum of the votes received. So the best of the best would be at the top of the forum. The only way this would work is to apply negative values to the votes below 'OK' in the summing code.


Thanks for your suggestions.

 

[LadyChaos]

A feedback rating system would be great, but it shouldn't be anonymous...think of some of the flame wars on here, then think about how petty people can be. There should be a small (80 characters) area for a comment, akin to eBay. Further followup should be posted to the message board part of the BOI.

Having the poll include whether the person leaving feedback was a buyer or a seller would also help people reading through the ratings get a feel for the person they are checking out without having to wade through hundreds of threads for a quick answer.

 

[WebSlave]

Nicole - I do hear what you are saying, but the polling capabilities of this message board system are 'as is'.  I don't have the time to try to hack into the code to try to modify it to make it perfect. And believe me, that would be a LOT of time and effort.  That was the reason for my request for feedback before implementing it (if I do).  I realize it has warts and am pointing them out to everyone.  I believe I pointed out all of the caveats for people to use as a decision in their recommendations.  And there certainly is the possibility that even after I put the work into implementing it, that I would find that it did more harm than good, and I would then delete the whole thing.

Unfortunately, this is not a closed loop system like Ebay whereas there are controls in place to tie buyers and sellers together with a reference number.  And yes, EVERYONE can vote in a poll whether or not they have direct experience or even knowledge of the object of the poll.  There is no feasible way to prevent this from happening.  Just as there is no way to prevent someone from registering here, use a ficticious name, and say untrue things about someone.  It is only the hope and faith that there are more honest people than dishonest people out there that makes the BOI even have a slim chance of surviving.

The ONLY way I could provide absolute strict controls on accountability of each and everyone voting in a poll, or making statements in the BOI, would be by having a paid registration system whereby any applicant to register would have to be able to provide proof of their identity.  Personally, I think this would be a 'Poseidon Event' for this site.  Maybe five years from now, who knows?  Maybe the majority of the people here would be willing to pay for the credibility such a system would be able to provide.

 

[Pennebaker]

I like the boi as is.  
Unless I am understanding the idea incorrectly, my problem with a simple rating system like that is that people can vote "bad guy" without giving reason.  As we've seen there are a lot of people that have gone out and called someone a bad guy (hurting a reputation), then when you actually here their gripe, it is unfounded.  I really think the explanations of situations and circumstances is what makes this board legit and constructive.  That and full names.
Besides, as a breeder, I would really like to know if someone voted "bad guy"--exactly what it was I did wrong so that I could correct the situation and avoid such instances in the future.  Actually, I'd be horrified to come on the boi and see my name with a "bad guy" vote and have no clue as to why and who.  I'd probably email all of my recent customers and make a fool of myself.
Besides, do you really need more work, lol!

Just my opinion.
Dana

 

[orcutti]

I think your rating system idea is excellent. But I do think that one change should be made. I think that the descriptions of the ratings should be removed and replaced with a number system something like this;

-5   -4   -3   -2   -1    0   +1   +2   +3   +4   +5

0 would be similiar to "ok, nothing special", which would represent the most minimal standard of service. 0 = no pats on the back but nothing notable to criticize. Vendors would either go up or down from there.

I think that when you use verbal descriptors to evaulate someone you always run into the problem of trying to describe what exactly constitutes "the worst" or "the best". Hopefully, everyone able to login and register can comprehend a numbering system that is roughly similiar to everyone elses understanding of those same numbers.

Just my 1.5 cents.  Forgive me for my spelling. I'm not good with those abd's.

 

[WebSlave]

John - that's not a bad idea, and I'll have to give it some thought.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[serpiente]

I persoally think that if somebody is too lazy to look through the threads on the BOI to verify a seller, then they can use to find threads that pertain to the seller in question.  I like the BOI the way it is. and I also feel it is a lot better than any poll system that could be added.  Also a poll system would cause a great deal of a headache for the moderators, ans they already have their hands full as it is.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Also, I know I haven't posted here very often, but I read a lot of these threads.
Lyle Boner

 

[Steve Barry]

I don't like the simple rating system and here's why.

1. It seems that the single biggest problem is mis or missed communication. I think for the most part we're dealing with part time sellers (hobbyists) who have regular jobs and families. Many also have lives outside of reptiles. I fully expect that an e-mail sent out on a Friday will not get answered till Monday night. After reading some of the disputes I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea what some of these people are trying to say in their e-mails. It gives me a headache trying to decipher some of them. Some of my e-mails were answered with a short sentence or two, but get these same guys on the phone and lookout, your phone bill can rival your shipping costs. How do you rate that. Phone 5 e-mail nothing.

2. Animal quality is always a question, particularly in trades. Newcomers have a tendency to rate their animals higher because they just don't know. Color and patterns are a personal choice. Thin bands, thick bands, more black, less black, etc,etc. I puchased two knoblichi last year from two different breeders. Both were hatched about the same time. One was eating fuzzies and the other was still on pinkies. The feeding and sheddding records sent with the smaller animal showed that he was fed a single pinkie every ten to 14 days. This knob is absolutely my best feeder. Has never once refused a meal. I would also like to hear about mites, ticks and other parasites when a deal is made.

3.Shipping. Because we're dealing with live animals shipping seems to be the most complicated aspect of this business. I believe the buyer has to share equally in the responsibility. All animals that I have purchased are shipped to a cousin's place of business. Someone is there five days a week to receive and sign for whatever it is I'm buying. No problems with an item being left out on the porch in the sun or in the cold. It makes it much easier to deal with shipping and is not as much of an imposition on the seller if he has regular weekly or bi-weekly shipping dates. I don't have to miss work either. Maybe I'm going too easy on sellers but I feel that this is just not the same as shipping a book, a camera, or some heat tape.

4. Honesty. This may be the toughest of them all. Some stories are so bizarre they belong in a Stephen King novel. It takes time to develop a rep for truthfulness and honesty. If I was interested in a particular animal I want to be sure of the dealers honesty.

5. Problem solving. How a breeder deals with problems tells a lot. A small hobbyist may be able to do no more than offer a refund. A large breeder may have a surplus of animals he can send in exchange for dead, missexed, or an animal that won't eat. It doesn't make the hobbyist a bad guy but he is somewhat limited as to what he can do for you. I'd like to know about it.

While the board can get a little tedious at times it does offer a little insight as to buyers, sellers, and resolving those little bumps in the road that can happen occasionally. At times it gets way out of control but if you stick to the facts and to people who have done business with individuals you are usually okay. Wading through stuff like the board is all part of your education and research. Developing a business takes time. Putting together a nest egg together takes time. Getting an education takes time. We are a people who have become used to immediate gratification. If you can't spend a little time doing the research perhaps you shouldn't be buying anything.

Steve Barry

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Well you seemed to have a good idea when you said it would be something like what Ebay uses. The thing is that your system is not at all like what Ebay uses. Many Auction web sites utilize a feed back forum. That is a great way to go if you can swing it and here is why:

The feedback can only be left by a buyer or seller.

The feedback is limited to a brief sentence.

If bad feedback is left by a seller about a buyer, the buyer can give a comeback answer, and visa versa if a seller leave bad feedback for a buyer.

The number of good versus neutral versus bad ratings is always available as are all the individual ratings.

Using your system, on the other hand, is pretty pointless from a buyer or seller's point of view as I see it; although I understand how it would be beneficial to you as webslave. First of all if I understand correctly, each user can only leave feedback once for a seller or buyer. This means that if I buy a snake from Bob's Wonder Snakes and I was highly satisfied, I then can leave excellent feedback once; and that is all I can ever leave for Bob's Wonder Snakes forever. Now if I buy five more times and each time I am as satisfied as the first, then all is fine; however, if on the third and then again on the fifth time I feel as if I got bamboozled by good old Bob - well how am I to leave negative feedback for those two sour deals?

Secondly, it is anonymous. On Ebay it is certainly not anonymous as a buyer can only leave feedback for a sale wherein he was the actual buyer for that particular sale. The seller now has your name and address that he sent your animals to, just in case he needs it for a liable suit. That keeps people a little more honest in giving feedback.

Third, if you are a registered user of these forums, and have never ever done business with Bob's Wonder Snakes, what is to prevent you from giving Bob a crappy rating just because one of your friends did a deal with Bob and did not like him.

Fourth, what is to prevent someone from registering numerous times for faunaclassifieds.com using different names - and then what is to stop them from leaving bad feedback for our friend Bob under the guise of all those other user names. This cannot happen under the Ebay system because you can only ad feedback on an item if you were the buyer or the seller.You may not be able to set up a system like ebay because your site does not act as a clearing house or middle man for the sales. Nothing registers on your site that Frank bought a snake from Bob - so I wonder could you limit comments to people who actually made deals. If not then the BOI format is the best way to go, and just forget about a poll that is too easily corrupted.

That is my .02 cents worth with a few bucks thrown in. Hope it helps.

Best regards,

Glenn bartley

 

[Michael Holmes]

I don't have experience with this particualar message boards programing but several other boards let you set rules for individual strings. In the past on boards I moderated their was a setting to restrict who post and who reads. You could set the read area to everyone and the post to only you the admin. This is normaly used on the site news area. Anyways I think it is a great idea.

 

[WebSlave]

Michael - I'll have to look at it again, but I believe that when I set it to only have the administrator post messages, it would not allow anyone else to vote either, which defeated the purpose of it.  But I'll look it over again to see if I overlooked a setting somewhere.

Glenn - what exactly would be the difference, then, between the anonymous vote polling, and posting messages on a board where anyone can use an anonymous hotmail account and use a ficticious name?  Chances are that people doing this for both positive and negative votes would eventually cancel themselves out.  The voting would be in addition to the regular posting in the BOI, so I would hope someone using a quick thumbnail view of someone they are considering doing business with would do further research by checking actual messages in the BOI before making a decision.

I'm not committed to do this, just gathering opinions.  Right now it would be too time consuming to manage, but it's a thought I am toying with for the future.  I may be switching this whole thing over to a different message board system (when I get time), so perhaps the poll voting has some better capabilities implemented.  Something else I need to look into, I guess.

Thanks for the input.

 

[turtleman1]

rich , it could be a great thing
dont go by ebay rules , wdc is an animal control co. we by on ebay, several months  ago i bought some traps, sent the MO & postage, seller sent back the MO said they were to big to know the auction # that ihad bid on,
i did not know it , it had been deleted, they then listed me as a non payer, i can not explain the  whole story, ( i have the mo & their note saved) give people the chance to tell the rest of the story, how ever you do it the good old BOI seems to
work,after the dave  & neil thing, i' m thinking  about using an Ala address,  they sure have made us Fla dealer look bad
3 miles to Ala.And i won't be a Fla dealer
keep up the good work, see you at the show , need some corns
Gene