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To inbreed or not to inbreed?

Stephies_Leos

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This is a question I have gotten alot of different information on so I thought I would post it and see what gecko experts on here think. :shrug01:
Is it ok to inbreed?
What are the do's and don't's of inbreeding?
What are the risks of inbreeding?

Thanks alot for any replies !
:eek:
Stephanie
 
You also need to look into how much the geckos you have are already imbred. If the breeder you bought them from was imbreeding for several generations it wouldn't be a good idea. You have to remember that most breeders imbreed to get the new morphs.
 
Just so you know Kristopher leos are ok to imbreed to a degree. It just shouldn't be done for more than a few generations. I don't do it yet but thats because I work in polygenetic traits mostly. In co-dominant traits it is often used because the morphs traits need to be bred back to estblish the trait. After which it is then spread into other lines.
 
The short answers: No, just don't, and severely compromised health.

The long answer: It's important to understand how inbreeding works, at the genetic level, in order to understand the effects. I'm going to assume you have a basic knowledge of Mendelian genetics (heterozygosity, punnet squares, etc) either from bio classes or personal research on herp breeding, and go from there. If this isn't the case, I'm sure we can fix that.

Imagine you have two animals, one of which is het for a rare allele (say a frequency of 1% of the total gene pool), the other has only the normal allele. From basic genetics, we know that there's a 50% (1/2) chance of any given offspring having this allele, and a bit of simple probability shows that there's a 25% (1/4) chance that two randomly selected siblings will both be het for it. Now, if you breed those two offspring together, there's a 25% (1/4) chance any given offspring of the sib-sib mating will be homozygous for that rare allele. So, if we step back and look at the whole picture, if you breed the two parents, randomly pick two sibs and mate them, 1/16th (1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16) of the offspring will be homozygous for the trait that only one parent was het for. In contrast, using the Hardy-Weinberg equations (I can explain these if needed, or point you to approriate websites), at an allele frequency of 1%, only 1 in 10,000 wild snakes would be born homozygous for the rare allele.

Now here's the punchline, and this is very important: Notice that I did not specify what that rare allele was, nor whether it was good or bad. It could be a pretty pattern, or a new beneficial mutation, but it could just as easily be a genetic defect or disease, and therein lies the problem: inbreeding increases homozygosity in a non-selective manner.

Important point number two: What I just described happening for one gene happens for *all* genes in the genome during reproduction (we'll set aside more complex issues such as maternal/paternal biasing and linkage disequilibrium). A good estimate for the genome of a reptile (or just about any vertebrate) is around 20,000 genes, and existing data indicates the average vertebrate (including lizards) is het at about 5% of those loci. A bit of quick math yields 1,000 genes which are present in het state in any given animal, and many of those are damaging mutations.

So what this means is that any given inbred offspring will be homozygous at more loci than normal (which can imprede physiological systems which do best with high genetic diversity, such as the immune system), and this in turn means that it will likely be expressing many negative mutations previously hidden away in het states. The net result is an animal which is weaker, less fit, and a poor competitor compared to it's non-inbred kin, as demonstrated by numerous wild and laboratory experiments.

It's also very hard to weed out these traits: selection on one trait, or a few traits is easy, but 1000? Most of which you can't see? This is actually a limitation of natural selection, called Haldane's paradox, where natural selection can only reasonably act against a few of the many, many genes in a population. After all, what if each of those 1000 have a mere 1% loss of fitness? That's 1000%, and that can't happen: at 100% loss of fitness, you're evolutionarily dead. In a limited population, the more genes natural selection has to act on, the less effectively it acts overall (remember, fitness is always relative, so if *everyone* sucks, there's no selection). Some culling will help, but it cannot alleviate the problem entirely.

Now, as I'm sure you know, brother-sister matings aren't the only form of inbreeding; there's parent-offspring, cousin-cousin, and, in plants and some invertebrates, self-fertilization. Not all forms of inbreeding are equally damaging. Recall the example breeding, and the end probability of a homozygote, 1/16th. Using the same logic, you can evaluate any family tree. Draw a dot for the father or mother (the carrier of the rare allele, doesn't matter which gender). Now, draw a dot for each of the two siblings, and a dot for their offspring. Then, draw an arrow for the gene flow connecting the dots; you should have two arrows from the parent, one to each sib, and an arrow from each sib to the inbred offspring. You should have a total of 4 arrows potentially transmitting the rare allele. Each time, there's a 1/2 chance of transmission, so take 1/2 to the 4th power (multiple 1/2 by 1/2 four times). You should get 1/16th. Now try it for a parent-offspring breeding; you should get an answer of 1/8. Try it for cousins, remembering that, because they're assumed not to carry the rare allele, the outbreeding animals the sibs mate with don't get arrows; the answer should be 1/64. The point is that the more distantly related the breeders are, the lower the intensite of inbreeding, and it decreases very rapidly; by 3rd cousins, there's no detectable effect. This also means that if you do repeated parent-offspring crosses, you'll see problems a lot sooner than if you do sib-sib crosses or cousin-crosses. Which actually brings up my next, and last (I swear!) point:

Inbreeding depression, and the genetic damage that causes it, is accumulative. One round of inbreeding will produce only modest reduction in health and fitness, but each time after that, the reduction will get worse and worse. The intensity of the inbreeding (as above) dictates how long it will take to reach a given loss of health, but even though it takes longer for cousin-cousin inbreeding to show problems, the problems *will* show up eventually.

Anyhow, I hope this wasn't too long and arduous, but I've seen many times where flawed or incomplete genetics knowledge has been used to justify inbreeding. At the end of the day, it's your call: there *will* be some level of health cost to the animals, so it's up to you whether the breeding is worth that.

Henry
 
Let me ask you a question? Do you or anyone you know breed Leos? Have you read any of the books on breeding Leos and their findings? I agree with what you are saying but I think you are unrealistic and taking it to an extreme. Even in the wild the chances of imbreeding is not uncommon considering the small area they may cover and the fact they can become fertile in less than a year. I'm not saying it is something that should be common place but thats how traits start.
 
I almost fogot to mention that these negative traits can and do pop up even in non-related breeding.
 
I agree with what you are saying but I think you are unrealistic and taking it to an extreme. Even in the wild the chances of imbreeding is not uncommon considering the small area they may cover and the fact they can become fertile in less than a year. I'm not saying it is something that should be common place but thats how traits start.

Well, in the wild, there are often mechanisms that minimize inbreeding, such as the dispersal of the young. In territorial species, finding territories adjacent to siblings, cousins or whatnot is less common, since one has to roam a fair distance to find a suitable unoccupied territory (or one whose owner can be displaced).

However, inbreeding *can* occur in the wild, especially in small populations or those with low dispersal. Islands are a good example. You'll also notice that island species tend to go extinct when mainland species invade; there is evidence that inbreeding depression contributes to their lower comparative fitness. You also no doubt have heard of the issue of habitat fragmentation in conservation of various species; it's the same problem of small populations that inbreed. To the best of my knowledge, the only organisms that really get away with inbreeding are plants (which are extraordinarily genetically resilient anyway), parasites (massive selection pressures weed out the less-fit), and eusocial haplodiploid insects (where the haploid males prevent damaging traits from hiding in het state).

And yes, it is how many specially-colored herps get started. But does that necessarily make it right? I'm not casting moral judgements, I'm just pointing out that it does have a price in terms of the animal's health.

I almost fogot to mention that these negative traits can and do pop up even in non-related breeding.

If you re-read, I not only acknowledge that, I calculate the frequency for the sample trait and compare that to the frequency it would arise in inbreeding.

The issue is twofold: first, inbreeding makes such traits more likely to show up, often massively moreso (in my example, 1 in 16 odds versus 1 in 10000 odds). Second, inbreeding makes it more likely that *multiple* negative traits will simultaneously manifest, which can make it harder to cull them out (see prior post, the portion on Haldane's paradox).

Wow...I never knew this about geckos..hmm...Do own any Bearded Dragons??

With very few exceptions (see above), the basic principles of what happens during inbreeding are as above for all animals, and even with plants. Basically any Eukaryotic organisms with sexual reproduction and a diploid genome will be affected by inbreeding the same way (again, with a few exceptions due to peculiar modes of inheritance or extraordinary selective pressures).

Henry
 
Ok so does it lessen the chance of problems if they only share one parent? I know many many morphs that got there beginnings by one little special morph gecko and then inbreeding its offspring to perfect the morph. But I am no genetics expert so I can't argue with your science. lol Or understand half of it !
 
I didn't say its ok to inbreed at all. I have no idea if it is or not but I do know that many morphs have been established in that way. If not we would all be breeding greenish yellow spotted geckos with an occasional mutation. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it I am fairly new to all this. That's why I started this thread to get everyone's opinion and certainly everyone is intitled to one. So now I know you are against inbreeding. As far as people go no I don't think they should be inbreeding. But thats another thread ......lol. You can start that one if you want ....lol. I have always loved animals and my pets but if you want to go there we should just leave the geckos in the dessert instead of putting them in a unnatural environment for our own enjoyment. (Just making a point)
Obviously this is a touchy subject for people but I think that its good for everyone to share their ideas and opinions on the subject.

Thanks and keep on replying !
Stephanie
 
Kris who said anything about people? Or are you looking for permission lol.

Henry I'm not disagreeing with you that it effects the animals health to a degree. I know many breeders that do it regularly and you can see the flaws in their offspring. These usually show up after a second if not a third generation of inbreeding without outcrossing.

Just because I'm curious, do you breed Leos and have you actually inbred any of them? You seem to be avioding that question.
 
Ok so does it lessen the chance of problems if they only share one parent?

Yes, the intensity goes down by a half (the same as you'd get by switching from sib-sib to sib-nephew/neice).

I know many many morphs that got there beginnings by one little special morph gecko and then inbreeding its offspring to perfect the morph.

Well, the fact that a trait has only appeared once creates other complications. In effect, it becomes necessary to inbreed to even keep the line going and dependably express the trait, but at the same time, that causes ever-accumulating problems in genetic health. Add to that the issues of a small gene pool and that all the animals share one very recent ancestor, and the genetic future of most lines, even if carefully managed, does not look good.

But I am no genetics expert so I can't argue with your science. lol Or understand half of it !

Was there a place in particular I lost you? I'm trying to get better at explaining these complexities without losing people, and I guess I still need to hone my presentation some more.

Just because I'm curious, do you breed Leos and have you actually inbred any of them? You seem to be avioding that question.

Nope, and currently my breeding of animals of any sort is nil until my fiancee can get her green card and get over here, as I just don't have the time to invest in incubation, hatchling care, sale and shipping. Neither of us own or plan to breed morphs of any kind, specifically due to strong ethical reservations about the effects of inbreeding.

The only similar thing I do is self-polination in some of my plants, but plants are extraordinarily resilent about genetic changes; seriously, they can lose, add or shuffle chromosomes around with seemingly no major problems, even double their genome (this often results in very large, healthy plants; the strawberries you eat have undergone such duplications twice, making them much larger than their wild kin). I'm actually hoping to use some of my knowledge of genetics to create a cultivar (a unique hybrid whose ancestry is proprietary information) through complex hybridization (long story short, the plant with the desirable trait is a pain to grow, but all the hybrids lack the trait, and I think with some more crossing I can re-aquire that trait paired with all the benefits of the other parent species).

Anyhow, as I pointed out earlier, it doesn't matter what you breed, unless it's bees (haplodiploid sex system) or the evening primrose (let's not even go into how screwed up that thing's inheritance is), inbreeding will produce the same effects in any sexual diploid species.

Henry
 
It all comes down to everyone has bad genes in them, but the few bad genes are mixed with mostly good genes. If you take 2 siblings and breed them, it condenses their genes so it makes double the exact same bad genes instead of diluting them with different (fresh) genes - they are all the same and every generation that you inbreed it condenses more until the animals can't survive because their genes are so faulty and there are too many bad ones and not enough good ones.
 
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