Update on snows and more snow pics

[snared99]

I have attached 2 pairs of pics. THe first pair is what Im calling the blizzard/patternless super snows. The first super is now close to 2 months old and the second pic is a hatchling from last week. Whether or not that hatchling will pattern out or not it is too soon to tell. The second pair of pics is the codom form of these snow. Again the first pic being the older individual at close to 2 months old, and the second in the same clutch as last weeks super hatchling. Im sorry about the pic on the second codom he is just going in his first shed but looks entirely grey when not in shed. I have gotten a number of opinions on these guys and I think Im leaning towards blizzard but I will have to wait for the eggs from my LVPA to decide that...lol Let me know what you guys think. Oh and steve if your out there please lend me a hand on this one..lol

 

[KelliH]

Thanks for posting the pics, Pat. Those are blizzards IMHO. Patternless hatch out with a pattern that fades away as they grow, while blizzards normally hatch with no pattern, or perhaps minimal pattern on the head/neck area. It looks like the person that told you that no blizzards were ever crossed into the Mack Snow lines was wrong! I am sending a link to this post to Steve Sykes, as I believe he hatched out blizzards when he bred his original Male Mack to Blizzard females. Perhaps he can shed some more light on your little guys. They are spectacular BTW!

 

[Hues1]

Nice looking Geckos Pat. What were genetics of the adults? That first one looks like a patternless super snow to me, and that 2nd one looks like a patternless snow.

Here is a 3 hour old hatchling from a Mack Snow Patternless Male bred to Patternless females. I produced a mix of patternless and mack snow patternless, the odds are against me producing any blizzards, normals, or anything else other than the patternless or mack snow patternless....but weirder things are happening with the Macks! This little guy here had the added bonus of having solid balck eyes. This is the 7th gecko to look this way that we've produced from these breedings...whats ODD is some actually hatch out looking like blizzards, but going on the animals I used to produce this one and others like it...I'd be more confident in saying mine are patternless rather than blizzards. In my experience, the ones which hatched out like this ended up looking like that 2nd. gecko you've got after a couple of weeks or so once they've had a chance to shed and "settle in".

 

[KelliH]

Thanks for posting Alex! I was wondering if any blizzards had ever been crossed into the Mack Snows? I was under the impression that you had said there is no way possible for Pat's animals to be blizzards, and that no Macks were ever crossed into blizzard lines. Of course, I could have misunderstood something, if so I apologize. Also, why do you think that the Mack Snow Patternless I hatched the other day has the typical "baby pattern" but yours do not? Thanks for the clarification! It's always interesting and fun when working with the Mack Snows, isn't it!? I mean, you never know what will pop out of your Mack colonies, could be something completely different!

 

[Gregg M]

All I have to say is at this point, it does not matter too much what it is..... One thing for sure is that it is awesome..... Guess you will just have to wait and see what you get from other pairings..... It is kind of odd that they do not have the typical blotchy pattern as hatchling patternless normaly have.....

Awesome leos Pat.... Keep up the good work...

 

[USAGECKOS]

Wow, those are all gorgeous Macks, it is amazing how much variety is coming from the projects. It is going to take years to figure them all out

 

[SteveGeckosEtc]

Hi Pat,

I'd say that looks like a super snow blizzard. However, I believe the super snow blizzard and super snow patternless will look very similar if not identical, so it could be patternless. As you know, patternless hatch with more of a pattern than blizzards, but the patterning is affected by the super snow phenotype...so that may wipe out the juvenile pattern of the super snow patternless, making it look like a blizzard.

The Tremper patt albino snow John Mack hatched, RW patt albino snow Kelli hatched, and the snow patternless Alex had on his website a while back all had the typical patternless patterning.... But, that snow patternless Alex posted in this thread really looks like a blizzard, so that adds another layer of confusion!

After I started hatching snow patternless and snow blizzards last year I contacted John Mack about the possibility of hidden recessive genes in his snows. He said it was certainly likely, he has a lot of geckos breeding and has various genes mixed into his breeders. Someone emailed me yesterday with a picture of a "mystery gecko" they hatched from breeding Mack snow x blizzard. It was really yellow (not a snow), but its pattern looked like a patternless. Blizzards were bred with patternless very early on in the process of proving out the blizzard gene. It is likely the two genes could have carried together through the same lines, even generations down the lineage.

I hope you are breeding your snow male with blizzards and patternless. That will be the only way to definitively tell what recessive gene is at work here.

Fun stuff!

 

[KelliH]

Thanks for posting, Steve.

 

[groovygeckos]

Oh boy, more confusion. LOL Interesting though! Double Het Macks, wow

 

[Ian S.]

Hi Pat,

I'd say that looks like a super snow blizzard. However, I believe the super snow blizzard and super snow patternless will look very similar if not identical, so it could be patternless. As you know, patternless hatch with more of a pattern than blizzards, but the patterning is affected by the super snow phenotype...so that may wipe out the juvenile pattern of the super snow patternless, making it look like a blizzard. Fun stuff!

Thats what I was talking about yesterday with Kelli as far as the super patternless goes. Take a look at what people have done with ball pythons. The super forms look nothing even remotely close to the co-doms. For example the blue eyed leucistic bp. The co-dom has done to the ball python what the mack should do for leopard geckos. LOL or contradictory maybe not we just don't know. It's really fun to guess but it's still so darn early and who the heck knows what the super form will look like when crossed to any of these morphs. It's gonna take alot of proof breeding so to speak... LOL I'll bet Marcia from GGG could help a great deal with the patternless. She has pure patternless genes right.

 

[snared99]

Steve thank you so much for posting it helps a great deal. We are currently breeding the male to a LVPA and searching for a breedable female blizzard. I agree I think there may be a double het thing here but as you said time will tell for sure. Thanks for all your help everyone I will definetly keep you guys posted.