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BEN SPARKS

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HI ALL,
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE PRACTICES OF SOME IMPORTERS BRINGING IN REPTILES THAT THEY KNOW WERE
FROM A PROTECTED AREA??
EXAMPLE:
THEY KNEW THAT THEY SNAKE "A" WAS WILD CAUGHT IN
A PROTECTED AREA THAT DOESNT ALLOW EXPORTING AND
SMUGGLED ACROSS TO SOMEWHERE THAT DOES. THEN IT
WAS MIS-LABELED AS BEING FROM THE "LEGAL EXPORTING"
COUNTRY SO THAT IT COULD BE BROUGHT INTO THE US.

DO YOU APPROVE , OR DISAPPROVE OF IMPORTERS THAT
KNOWINGLY PARTICIPATE IN THIS? LET ME KNOW WHAT YOUR
THOUGHTS ARE.

GOD BLESS!!!
BEN SPARKS
C.R.C. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
Since this would be an illegal and unethical act I would say disapprove. Now the hard part would be proving this happened.
 
WHAT IF THE IMPORTED ALREADY STATED THAT HE KNEW THIS WHAT WAS BEING PRACTICED ?:?

BEN SPARKS
C.R.C. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
Your going to base your business on a supplier that may dry up overnight? How about one that brings the authorities to your business as fallout when they work their way down the chain? Seems to me smart business would be to find a better supplier. Course I'm not out for a quick buck and am looking longer term. Read the newspapers, your seeing fallout for very similiar business choices almost on a daily basis. Executives using the same business practices as "it's not my business how they get them" school of thought are facing criminal charges.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>
 
TRUST ME, I'M NOT LOOKING TO BE DOING ANY BUSINESS
WITH THIS COMPANY. HOWEVER; THEY ARE ONE OF THE MOST ESTABLISHED IN THE HERP INDUSTRY. I JUST WONDERED WHAT PEOPLES OPINIONS WERE.

GOD BLESS
BEN <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
VAGUE.......AMBIGUOUS.....MISLEADING.........DISHONEST


These are but a few titles that neatly fit the descroption of several importers that are out there now. Ben, you said that they are one of the "Biggest"  importers in this industry, as well they may be. And they make the most money, that is for sure eh?

But , sooner or later, the wrongness of their deeds and the manner they conduct their business in wil come to light.

I hear you, reading this and saying to your self "Yeah, right, they have been doing this for YEARS without any major derailment.

And all I am trying to say to you, is that the derailment for their little train is comeing.
Do you want to be onboard when it does.

We all sin, we all cheat, we all lie. Everyone of us. Yes, everyone of us.
Only not on such a wholesale scale and not so frequently and for such a great degree of profit.

I wouldnt deal with them if I were you Ben, I wouldnt buy from them. But then I am a very rebellious person by nature, and resist doing what everyone else does as much as I can. Which nowadays means resisiting doing ANYTHING to make a buck, even getting into bed with suppliers that are not only unethical but illegal in their actions. NOWADAYS, what your witnessing is commonplace, the lieing, cheating and above all the:

          DISREGARD FOR ENDANGERED SPECIES LAWS

I cant tell you the number of people that in the long ago past have offered me w/c Eastern Indigos(Fed Protected, illegal to take or touch in native habitat) These people had no more moral problem with selling me a protected species with a Threatened status than I would have selling you a cornsnake.
I did not ever take any of these people up on their offers, I found it disturbing that they didnt care about the snakes themselves, but just in makeing a buck. Thank God they dont contact me anymore.
And thats what it comes down to, are you most concerned about makeing money in this industry? Because if you are then you are reading the wrongs guys post,I havent made diddley squat!

I would find another supplier.


Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles
 
I dont like it for a couple of reasons.

I will say this off the bat.  I think I like the idea of "protected areas" a lot better than just "protected species".  In general, the biggest reason for a species decline is habitat loss, not collecting.  Protect an area and you are prohibiting building in that area, hence giving the species an area to thrive.  Just protect the species, you are saying that no one can collect it and sell it without a permit, but a lot of the time, natural habitats are just built upon and the animals would have been better off being collected.  In my opinion that is the way to go--then after a period of time as species flourish, even collecting in limitted numbers in these areas may be possible.  

Now someone going into these protected areas and scooping up critters to take to a non-protected area definitely defeats the purpose.  If you are allowed to collect these species elsewhere and chose to do it in a protected area, I see it as pure laziness and disregard for the species and conservation ethics.  And, like Daniel said, it's hard to prove.  Also, if these animals then go into the pet trade, it is likely that someone who may care about the status of these animals is unknowingly participating in an act that they may disapprove of.  I know I'd be pissed.  That is misrepresentation on top of being illegal.

I know it gets done all the time.  I would want nothing to do with these people.  I don’t care how “big” they are.  So who is it?  

It's no wonder we have groups like hsus all over us, there are a bunch of shmoes in this biz.

Dana
 
interesting related topic...
did any of you read this week's herp digest article about wildlife smuggling within established arms and drug related smuggling rings? Russian mafia, cartel, etc...
a couple lovely highlights--finding a live boa with an "unnatural bulge" in it belly, only to find it had been force fed condoms full of cocaine.  
trading smuggled australian birds for heroin in bankok.
lovely!
btw, I'm not insinuating that the importers brought up in this thread have anything to do with this...just a related subject.
dana
 
HI DANA AND FRED AND DANIEL,

WELP, I'LL PROBABLY GET NAILED FOR THIS BUT "OH WELL".
I THINK ITS SOMEHTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED.
A WHILE BACK SOMEONE ON A KINGSNAKE.COM FORUM THREAD MADE A COMMENT ABOUT BEN SEIGEL BEING OUT FOR A QUICK BUCK.  BEN SEIGEL ENDING UP REPLYING WITH A
LOOONG STATEMENT WHERE HE WENT OVER EVERYTHING FROM HOW HE STARTED WITH A 4000$ BUSINESS LOAN TO
WHERE HE IS LIVING COMFORTABLY TODAY. THE GUY (I DONT KNOW WHO IT WAS) WHO MADE THE STATEMENT FELT
THAT BEEN WAS MIS-REPRESENTING LOCAL BOAS. I THINK IT
WAS WHEN THE "LETICIA" BUZ STARTED GOING A FEW MONTHS BACK. IN SEIGELS REPLY HE STATED THAT HE KNEW
THAT BOAS WERE SMUGGLED OUT OF PROTECTED AREAS IN
SOUTH AMERICA AND BROUGHT TO PLACES LIKE GUYANA WHERE THEY COULD BE EXPORTED BUT LABELED AS "GUYANAN
REDTAILS".  SEIGEL WAS SAYING THAT "SURE HE KNEW THEY
WERE FROM DIFFERENT (AND SOMETIMES PROTECTED) LOCALS BUT HE DIDNT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF BEING ABLE TO SELL THEM FOR A HIGHER PRICE. HE SOLD THEM AS THEY WERE LABELED AS THEY CAME IN.
 WHAT GOT ME WAS HOW HE SAID HE KNEW OF THE PRACTICE GOING ON BUT DIDNT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. YET
HE STILL IMPORTS SNAKES HE KNOWS ARE COMING FROM PROTECTED AREAS LIKE BRAZIL ??  I DONT KNOW IF NOBODY ELSE CAUGHT IT IN HIS STATEMENT OR WHAT BUT ITS BEEN
PLAGUING MY MIND EVER SINCE. MAYBE THERE ARE SOME FACTS OR SOMETHING I'M MISSING OR NOT UNDERSTANDING
BUT IT SEEMED PRETTY EASY TO UNDERSTAND.
 WELP, NOW YA KNOW. IF YA FEEL LIKE FLAMING PLEASE GO GENTLE, I'M JUST HERE TO LEARN LIKE MOST OF YOU.

GOD BLESS TO ALL,
BEN SPARKS
C.R.C.
 
I don't agree with any importer knowingly accepting animals that are illegaly collected.  

As "collectors" we have to realize, however that the chances that any WC was collected in less than optimum circumstances is pretty high.

As for the whole "Leticia" thing...I'll say it again...they are still b.c.i.  Just because they ship out of Leticia (technically a south colombian) doesn't make them special.  There are great looking boas from all over South and Central America.  If I caught an ugly a$$ boa in the Guyanas, it's still ugly! : )

Jason Royer
 
Anyone who knowingly violates the laws concerning WC importation (or participates in the results thereof) is a dishonest person in my book, and I would certainly choose not to do business with such a person.  I don't know if this applies to Siegel or not, because I am not privy to the facts of what has been alluded to here.  However, in general principle, I don't deal with unethical people regardless of who they are or what they have to offer,
 
JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS, THERES NO INSINUATION OR
ACCUSATIONS. I'M JUST REPEATING WHAT SEIGEL SAID (TYPED ACTUALLY).

GOD BLESS!!
BEN SPARKS <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
Ben and everyone else,  I think you're reading way to much into this.  Siegal may "know" the boas are coming from an area that is protected, but his knowing may only be his hunch based on his knowledge of boas.  Its not that B. Siegal gets on the phone and tells the exporter "hey send me 25 boas from the national park."  He simply gets on the phone and orders 100 boas.  When the boxes arrive he opens them and examines what he got.  

It usually goes something like this: ok ordered 100 baby boas- recieved 37 babies 24 yearlings and 15 adults for a total of 76 boas all of them cost the same as what the babies were supposed to because the exporter doesn't really care about anything other than the head count.  

Now Ben Siegal (or any other importer who know anything about the animals they are importing) may be able to look at the boas and make "educated guesses" as to where they came from, but the exporters doesn't send at list telling them exactly where the animals were caught.  They just send every animal they can get their hands on, period.  Snakes don't know borders, trappers do, but they don't care.  They have 15 mouths to feed at home and if the snakes are easier to catch in the National park then you can bet that's where they head.

Honestly people, until we take better care of our own species (the ones in this country) it's really pointless to worry about the animals from the third-world nations.  In most cases the animals are better off here, in good collections, than in that nation anyway.
 
HI BRIAN,

I DONT THINK I'M READING TO MUCH INTO IT. MY PROBLEM IS
THAT SEIGEL STATED THAT HE THINKS THIS IS COMMON PRACTICE. NOW, IF HE BELIEVES THAT AND STILL CONTINUES
TO USE THE SAME EXPORTER TO IMPORT FROM, THAT TO ME
SHOWS DISREGUARD FOR THE SPECIES, LAWS, AND ETHICS.
WHETHER ITS PROVEN OR NOT, IF HE BELIEVES IT TO HAPPEN
AND CONTINUES HIS SUPPORT OF IT BY PURCHASING FROM THE SAME EXPORTER, THAT IS TOTALLY UNETHICAL AND CAN
COME BACK TO HAUNT HIM IN MY OPINION.  

ONCE AGAIN, IT WAS THE FACT THAT HE BELIEVES IT TO BE COMMON PRACTIVE WITH WHOM HE PURCHASES FROM, AND
THE FACT THAT HE STILL BUYS FROM THE SAME EXPORTER
THEREFOR SUPPORTING THE CONTINUATION OF THE PRACTICE
THAT I THINK IS UNETHICAL.

GOD BLESS
BEN SPARKS <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
I am going to say something that may sound unpopular, but in my opinion and experience true.
There are very FEW importers(if any) that can prove the locality of their animals unless the trapper/exporter tell them specifically(which I doubt happens very often).  They can make broad generalizations based on the look of animals that come in.  The exporters usually don't care one way or another, as long as they meet their order.  To the guy in Central America that is getting paid for 100 boas, 100 boas is 100 boas, no matter where they come from.  And also, they may not always be aware that they are collecting in protected land.  In some places here in the US, it is not always very easy to tell where the boundaries are for private/federal/public lands(not all protected lands have admission gates).  I am sure that it is just as hard if not harder to tell in Central and South America where the snakes are being collected.  
And also, although there may be quite a few import houses here in the US, I am sure that the selection of QUALITY exporters and trappers is not incredibly high.  If they continually get quality and healthy(for imports) animals from that exporter, they will continue to buy from them.  The importer here in the US may suspect the animals are coming from a protected area, but they cannot prove it, and a "hunch" is alot to stake a good supplier on in my book.  And I am pretty sure that the kind of collecting mentioned in this thread is very common in the export game, whether it be intentional or not.  
So we can either get the animals here in the country, or we can just no longer deal with many(if not all)exporters out there and not get the animals because we have a "hunch"(without proof) that some of the animals may or may not be coming from a protected part of the forest:\
 
Ben,
We've got a similar situation right here in our own little collection.  About 13 years ago a highly regarded importer here in the US purchased a group of animals from a supplier (think it was in Indonesia) and received a snake marked as an abberant macklot's python.  The original purchaser of the snake, and also the person who got the importer seriously interested in reptiles as a living, recognized it as a water python.  Since they weren't in big supply at that time, he purchased this female.  We received her 3 years ago now and research, along with a lot of questions to knowledgeable breeders of Indo/Austrailian python species, has led to the conclussion that she is likely to be a Queensland sub-species and this is partially based on her length, which is in excess of 8 feet.  Now, everyone knows that Australian flora/fauna is illegal to export but as a neonate/juvenile python, nothing of her origin could be ascertained.  It was only after adult size was attained that information could be gathered and weighed since water pythons from Indonesia are not all that uncommon.  True, the mislabeling was a pretty bad mistake, but the herp trade wasn't as strong 13 years ago as it is today and a lot less was know.  You ought to try finding a true mainland male to breed with her...nightmare doesn't even begin to describe it.  However, we've decided to test another theory with her and have chosen to breed her against a male macklot's to see if we're right, wrong or if there may be some sort of truth to her original labeling.  Only time will tell.  So, I guess what I'm saying is that exporters screw up, sometimes importers don't have any idea what's going on and simply take what they get and often buyers out here, like you and me, wind up with some really odd stuff in the process.  Exporters have to accept the word/work of their collectors and generate their export paperwork within their own countries.  Importers have similar restraints and all imports supposedly go through scrutiny by USF&G before delivery/pick-up.  Eventually, where do you draw the line?  Once it's here and declared legal by the "powers-that-be", just accept it and do your best to produce true CB offspring so that future mistakes like these can be avoided someday.

Just my $.02 for what it's worth.  God Bless.

David Jobes
Double "D" Reptiles
Stigler, OK
 
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