What is to be?

[WebSlave]

Again, please allow me to reiterate...

Chuck received ONE warning point. The only reason he got a fine and suspension was because of a glitch in the system.

Chuck, if you paid your fine unnecessarily, then please contact Rich about it.

That is not exactly accurate, and for the record I think I should explain it a little better.

The way the new warning system is set up (and yes there are still some bugs in it), there are two levels of warnings:

(1) 1 pointers, which are considered as reminders to possible errors being made, and a slight nudge in the right direction. Mostly geared towards new members who might make a simple mistake here.

(2) 10 pointers, which are much more serious infractions and immediately put you on suspension pending payment of a fine to be reinstated.

(There is actually a zero point warning, which can be used as simply comments or suggestions to a member. I use it when there is no necessity for warning points, but this just makes a very quick and dirty way to contact a member about something or another.)

But there are some catches. The system is set to trigger a fine and suspension at 10 points. If you are already OVER 9 points, one additional 1 point warning will get you fined and suspended. If you are already over 10 points, ANY infraction at all will trigger the fine and suspension. Even a one pointer puts you into the dugout again.

Sounds unfair? Well maybe. Depends on how you look at it. My reasoning is that anyone already over 10 points has likely been here long enough to know the ropes. Some people should know them backwards and forwards by now. The "fine and suspension" method will be used, and rather harshly "for a while" to get things on an even keel here as quickly as possible. It is quite possible for a new member to get a 10 pointer right off the bat, but in that instance, I think a harsh line needs to be applied to such a member to get them on track right away and in a very direct manner. If such a member is going to be a trouble maker right off the bat, I would just as soon get them out of here as quickly as possible. I don't like having to do it this way, but I think it is perfectly clear to at least some people that it is now necessary to be this way.

To put it succinctly as possible, shape up, or ship out.

I had considered zeroing out the warning points completely, but have so far decided against it. Not that I wish the record to be used against any member here, but quite the opposite. I want a visible record available to all members to be able to audit what we do as moderators here. YOU have the opportunity to look at the warning points myself and the moderators assess against any member here, see the post in question (unless it needed to be deleted) and decide for yourself whether or not we are acting fairly. The warning system, in this respect, is there for YOU to use to keep US fair and honest. YOU have the ability to look over our shoulders and watch what we do, which I think is the best way to handle something like this.

I do intend to make a more forum TOS, but honestly time is just in short supply. I will do so just as soon as I am able to. For those of you who need the lines plainly drawn on the road to stay within them, best I can suggest is that you make an honest effort to be a better person here. If you are not certain what "better" means, then perhaps you have better start looking for a new home anyway. The downright nastiness and acrimony that has plagued this site will come to an end no matter who has to be evicted to make that happen.

Oh while I am thinking of it. No there is no restriction concerning disagreeing with moderators nor myself here. What we will NOT tolerate any longer is being done so in an abusive or derogatory manner. I refuse to tolerate it towards myself any longer, and I also do not expect my moderators to put up with it as well.

 

[Lucille]

I understand that now Doc and I thank you for letting me know and Rich know. He emailed me earlier to let me know he's working on it.

May I ask why you have you failed to issue any warning points to Lucille for implying that two other members are just too dumb and lazy to do their own search? That is what she implied and you know darn well thats what she implied.

I had no intentions at all of implying any such thing, Chuck. And, by a polite question or two you could have found that out for yourself, just by asking. I think this launching into an attack mode here, first thing, is not conducive to harmony, and is distressing to those whose purpose, like mine was to begin a dialogue on a new subject; in this case it was vBulltetin.

 

[critical bill]

I had no intentions at all of implying any such thing, Chuck. And, by a polite question or two you could have found that out for yourself, just by asking. I think this launching into an attack mode here, first thing, is not conducive to harmony, and is distressing to those whose purpose, like mine was to begin a dialogue on a new subject; in this case it was vBulltetin.

Pffft. Liars and Lawyers...same difference...and I have NO time for either. People who visit the thread can come to their own conclusion as to what you were "trying" to say.

Chow....

 

[Dr Owens]

May I ask why you have you failed to issue any warning points to Lucille for implying that two other members are just too dumb and lazy to do their own search? That is what she implied and you know darn well thats what she implied.

Actually, that's not at all how I interpreted her comments. Perhaps you're privy to other information that puts her comments into that kind of context for you, but from where I sit I don't see it. Conversely, there is little doubt in my mind that your comments were meant to be rude and antagonistic.

 

[WebSlave]

Pffft. Liars and Lawyers...same difference...and I have NO time for either. People who visit the thread can come to their own conclusion as to what you were "trying" to say.

Chow....

Bada-bing. I honestly think my moderators have been looking forward to cleaning up the joint. Who would ever have guessed? But thank you, so I don't have to do it all. I would have done the same, under the circumstances.

I really hope no one thinks I am kidding about this. I am quite willing to give the boot to as many people as necessary to clean up this joint. And as can be seen, my moderators are with me 100 percent with this sweep.

 

[DAND]

I'm sure that the certain few whose posts will be scrutinized would have been "given the boot" after making this post: (yeah I know, you can't read every thread/post, but if I had made the post it would have been my luck it would have been)

And yet another idiot......

Would I have received warning points for agreeing?

Sounds unfair? Well maybe. Depends on how you look at it. My reasoning is that anyone already over 10 points has likely been here long enough to know the ropes. Some people should know them backwards and forwards by now.

That would be all and well but you just changed the "rules" without letting the general public know what they all are. I specifically asked you what you wanted to see more of or less of and it seems like you thought I wanted a complete breakdown and mile long list. You stated one thing in a post then a few posts later you stated another. Giving only broad bits of information as to what you were looking to accomplish. I was under the impression that you were looking for feedback when you asked; "where am I going wrong with this site?". The reasoning for my question was not to see what I could get away with but to see what help I could provide. If you're asking for directions you need to let us know where you want to go first. If I am/was yet another bump in the road adding more aggravation to your obvious chronic case of hemorrhoids then I would want to know so as to not continue.

Confucius says, don’t be pissed at car for going off road when you let go of the wheel.

 

[Lucille]

but to see what help I could provide.

David, I am not trying to answer for anyone else, but your post made me think and I would like to share my thoughts.

Here are some ways I will try to be helpful here:

I would like to make a special effort to welcome new members, so they will feel comfortable on the site and share their reptile experiences.

I would like to make an effort to welcome existing members. Like old married couples, many here have had past spats and disagreements, but relationships take work and you can make most work as long as both sides try, even after spats. I would like to mend bridges the best I can.
Those who persist in being hostile, rude, and unrelenting to other members will have to answer to the administrators.


For some here, when their knickers start really getting in a knot, there are a couple of solutions I see: first, you can always go to Hell, and second, you can turn off the computer and go do something you like to do: work with your reptiles, take a walk, hanky panky, whatever. It's amazing how one's perspective changes with a little time and a refreshed mind.

Some people agree with posts and some disagree, as long as we are courteous and realize that we are part of a family (and watch out for the feelings of our other family members), we can say how we feel. If you are not sure that what you are saying is acceptable then it probably isn't; see if you can rephrase it.

I would like to encourage thoughtful and helpful communication by recognizing when someone has made the effort to write a good post or come up with a thoughtful point of view.

I will try to post more on the BOI, and be on topic, it has saved many people lots of money.

I have been recently and will continue to post more in the substantive forums: I am not an expert but certainly if I have some experience I can help someone else.

Finally, I think that if all of us do our genuine best to help, we will be so far from lines drawn in the sand that we will be very unlikely to tread on them.

I realize that my thoughts on how to help will not necessarily be the ways others can be equally helpful; but your post was absolutely a call to thought, and it is my answer to the call of the thread: what is to be?

 

[critical bill]

Actually, that's not at all how I interpreted her comments.

Hey...and thats all that matters. You did the right thing owens.

See the smiley face? I'm happy about it. Really.

 

[WebSlave]

The simple fact of the matter is that the changes are still being worked on. Yes, I should have made a broadcast public statement about it, and yes I guess I could have given some sort of grace period for people to get the crap out of their system first. But I didn't. I am still up every morning till around 3 am feeding snakes. So time is an issue, and I do have higher priorities. All in due time, as I find the time.

And to be quite honest about it, I can't see any reason to have pity or be overly patient with anyone who can't seem to get the hang of acting like a mature human being while posting on a public forum. Maybe there is a personality problem with some people posting here, but that is not my problem, it is theirs. They should have known about that problem long before I decided to crack the whip about it, and certainly finally getting that whip across their buttocks should come as no shocking surprise. Most people here have likely spent quite a lot of time on the BOI, and within that forum is a thread that plainly spells out the rules of the road for posting there. I believe I may even have added something about most of the rules applying site wide. Sorry if you did not read that thread or think somehow it does not apply to you. You should have realized that the potential for strict enforcement was always possible, and at any time without notice.

So until I can get a proper TOS posted and make this all a formal announcement, I guess the TOS is going to be simply:

Your actions will dictate how you are treated here. To get respect, you must give respect. If you act like a malicious and antagonistic jerk, you will be treated as one.

With that in mind, everyone is asked to help in the weeding out such people here. EVERY post made on this site has an optional link provided to allow YOU to report a post to the moderators. So if you see a post that is in violation of the rules, or just lacking plain common decency or courtesy, then click on that link. If you don't, then we just may not see it ourselves. And in such a case, I am just not impressed or interested in any complaints about "consistency", when you say you saw a post that was an obvious violation. You saw it yet did nothing about it, and could have. If you want to help and have an interest in cleaning up this site, then help in a way that will really do so. Every reported post will be looked at by someone here. That is not to say that we will all agree that it is a violation, but at least it will be called to our attention and at least evaluated.

With the above in mind, it is quite possible that a post may be looked at by every one of the moderators, including myself. If even ONE of us feels it is in violation, then action will be taken. It does not have to be a unanimous decision, nor even a majority decision. Only ONE moderator needs to feel that YOUR post is in violation and warning points and possible suspension will be the result. If I decide to ask more people to help out as moderators, that number of scrutinizing eyes will increase accordingly. I can't stress enough that you really need to be circumspect in how you post here.

Speaking of which, I have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Some of the people who have recently been fined and suspended are being the most diligent in seeking out other posters in possible violation of the rules and reporting such posts. Thank you for seeing the light yourself and making the effort to help with the cleanup. I would truly like to see everyone here involved in this process.

 

[Wilomn]

If I decide to ask more people to help out as moderators, that number of scrutinizing eyes will increase accordingly. I can't stress enough that you really need to be circumspect in how you post here.

Speaking of which, I have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Some of the people who have recently been fined and suspended are being the most diligent in seeking out other posters in possible violation of the rules and reporting such posts. Thank you for seeing the light yourself and making the effort to help with the cleanup. I would truly like to see everyone here involved in this process.

I think it should be WHEN and not IF as it seems, from all that YOU have repeatedly said Rich, that there is simply not enough time, enough manhours available, to truly police this site. More mods would be good. Any chance of getting Ritchie back?

As far as people reporting what they think are inappropiate posts, this will be an interesting can of worms and I'll just let that play out as it will.

I know I reported dan poe's post for being in the wrong forum but I don't make a habit of complaining about what other people say. I really don't like tattletails and don't appreciate, even in the most likely unintentional manner that you utilized, the implication that I am one.

Yes, QUITE a can of worms you've opened here.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

You seriously want people to report posts in violation? I think most people refrain from doing so because the know the sheer volume of work you guys already have. You may not be aware of how many posts are in violation, and you're about to open the flood gates. If that is what you really want, that that's what I'll do. There are few posts that I would report, as some things I don't feel are a big deal. If I'm getting people in trouble, it better be something bad. But someone looking for every violation is going to report those same threads that I just shrug my shoulders at.

 

[WebSlave]

I suspect it is not all that many people who are making abusive posts here. Once they either see the light or get escorted out the door, the volume will decrease dramatically.

All posts here are likely read by someone at one time or another. I have already gone on record stating that myself and the moderators cannot, and will not, read every post made on this site. So this is the alternative I am proposing.

As for the "can of worms", yes, and it is time to go fishing........

 

[Wilomn]

As for the "can of worms", yes, and it is time to go fishing........

Now THAT'S the right attitude. Hold on to that one and let the others go.

Did you ever see the movie Big Fish? It's an interesting story about interesting stories and one particular story teller. No really pertinant but still a good flick.

Worms are kind of cool too.

So, is it true? If you pull a worm in half do you get two separate worms, both alive and different or do you get two dead pieces of one worm or do you get one short worm and a piece of wormflesh?

 

[Wilomn]

Oh my gosh, I think I just hijacked my own thread.

I don't know if I should report me or wait for someone else to do it.

Woe is me, what ever shall I do?

 

[Junkyard]

With reporting posts, some will take it as an extra duty of theirs and report every little thing that they think is in violation. Would that not become a hassle for the mods? Maybe you should quietly assign a certain few you trust to help out and not have your e-mails flooded with "Bad Post" from all those who think they should be in charge of who violated your terms. This would help clean things up and not over work your mods.

 

[WebSlave]

Woe is me, what ever shall I do?

For one thing, you may want to pad your PayPal account. I think you are going to need it if you intend to stay around here.

 

[Griz]

Rich, it appears that I am one of the people who have been caught up in the "did not know" club. Not that I am complaining. Rather, I am seeking clarification. As was quoted above, I am the one that made the post about "and yet another idiot." Was I correct? Yes, I would say I was but I also should have simply kept my mouth shut. Lesson learned.

However, that was my first and only posting that earned me warning points of 10 and thus a fine. So, with that in mind, am I to understand that if I ever do something that even one mod finds to be in offense or that they take wrong, that I will be fined yet again? That for each and every point above 10, I will earn an ever increasing fine? I have always said to let the punishment fit the crime but this seems a bit, actually a lot, out of proportion.

In addition to the fine, I also received -6000 reputation points thereby not only erasing all of the points I had earned to date but also put me in the hole by 1000. Again, for a one time offense, seems a bit much to:

1) Earn me 10 points
2) Fine me $10
3) Put me in a position to be fined EVERYTIME from this point forward
4) Make me lose 6000 points

I don't know that any reasonable person would say that this "punishment" fits the crime of calling someone a name which was actually fitting given the circumstance. I understand you want to clean the place up and I am 100% for that. However, I don't know if this stance is out of sheer frustration or what, but I do not believe that these decisions are in line with the ultimate goal. If there are repeat offenders then kick them off. Make the point that way. As is typical in business, Admin usually spends 90% of their time on 10% of the population. If that's the case then remove them. Problem solved and that example will be enough for most everyone to clean up their acts. Just my $.02 cents.

Griz

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

For those of you who do not know what's going on, here is the thread that started it all:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72444

 

[WebSlave]

Bob, as mentioned in the PM to you, there is a karma penalty associated with the fine and suspension. I had it set to give a negative 1000 points for anyone who got themselves fined and suspended. I thought this was appropriate as obviously the post that got someone fined and suspended was most certainly going to be a post that deserved negative karma. And at that time, many people had karma point levels that were FAR above 1000 points.

At the same time you got the fine and suspension, my programmer ran a SQL routine on the database that rolled back EVERYONE's karma points to 10. There have been so many abuses in that system, that I figured the best thing to do is to just start over with it completely. So everyone lost their karma points at that time, not just you.

I have also adjusted the way karma points are evaluated, and quite honestly, under the newly adjusted figures, -1000 karma points is rather harsh. I will adjust yours accordingly to compensate.

Still there will be a -100 karma point penalty attached to anyone fined and suspended. So please keep that in mind.

In reference, also, to your claim of the entire penalty being too harsh, sorry, but harshness is going to be more the rule then the exception in order to get things cleaned up here. The best way to not get on the wrong side of a moderator is by taking extreme caution in how you now post here. The crap that has been tolerated or overlooked in the past is now over with.

 

[jsrocket]

I support the new system. I would not like this place to be Sesame Street, either, but IMO the playground bullies were just out of control.

Wes, is it really that hard for an intelligent guy like yourself to figure out the difference between a civilized disagreement and a flame war? You can be bluntly honest without personal insults.