Where am I going wrong with this site?

[Lucille]

I may very well zero out the entire reputation system and start over from ground zero

If there is a flux of change, perhaps my warning point could get zeroed out?..
Yeah, I know, nice try.....

I think courteous replies, even when one disagrees, are an excellent idea. As I have said before, I do not think it is necessary to be mean and nasty to get a point across.

 

[nicolai]

As for the rep point situation...

I for one am one of the guilty ones when it comes to the "tit for tat' in the rep point situation.As are many others with "HIGH" numbers. There were a number of people running around giving rep points to everyone in the hopes of getting some back to increase thier overall number.On the flip side there were a lot of people using thier rep points to minipulate the overall rep points of people with less then themselves whether it be good or bad. I do think however that most people didnt think there were any ramifications to this kind of behavior. So wiping the slate clean would be a very good thing and when this is done lay it out plain and simple what the rules are and what the penalties for abusing the system are that way no one can claim ignorance in the future.The 2 reps per day idea you came up with is also a good one, people will be a lot more careful as to whom they give rep points to and why. Also you could make it so the person giving the rep points has to put something into the character field to explain the reason for the good/bad rep points and everyone would be able to read a users rep points and comments. maybe even add a reply option (like ebay) so the member can explain himself.
I also think that while you are implementing all these changes you should make HELL a hidden forum only visible to the people that subscribe to it and even charge for it if you have to. I think that everyone needs a place to speak thier mind without being inhibited by the majority of the rules, values and ethics of the spoken majority. These days way too many people are worried about everything being politically correct. At this rate we are going to end up being a bunch of robots saying and doing the same things soon. Sometimes being the same as everyone else isn't all that it is cracked up to be.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

When I was introduced to this sight back in 2002, it was a BOI thread that was emailed to me. I worked anonyously to help some folks try to recover stolen money and animals. He was still on parole and because of my input he was sent back to prison. And I never posted on his thread 1 time.

Ive been a member of this sight for a long time now. I am also one of those who was afraid to post in the early days

Think back to the early days Rich, when Neil, Ken, Cory, and Ritchie were insulting, rude, and diligent in outing thieves, liars, and true bad guys. They were good a what they did, so good, that I was terrified to try and post. I honestly feel that the guys who have replaced them are a lot more tolerant of newbies than their predecessors.

I would like to see the pissing match's stop, the reputation system abolished, and harsher penalties for those who abuse this sight. I remember when Neil was banned, and now he's back. I remember the email that was sent to the wrong person............

I am much more active and opinionated now. I visit many of the other forums that fauna has to offer, that until recently, I never looked at or paid any attention to at all. I also go into the chat rooms and for this old girl is a journey in it's self LOL.

This sight has given me the opportunity to develop business relationships and friends that I would have never met with out you and fauna!! I've been to other sights, answered adds, and they ultimately wind up here to check me out.

AT NARBC in Anaheim, I was auctioned off to Jeff Barringer and being the loyal fauna girl that I am, I asked to be given to someone else. It was only a one hour massage, but a therapist has the right to turn down a client and I did so.

And Lucille, I have been to the lonely hearts forum, and will probably be there a lot more!!

This is a fun little dysfunctional family, with it's personality conflicts, fighting and jokes. And I call this place home. I check in every morning and sometimes more, depending on what's going on in the BOI or other forums that I frequent.

You've done an excellent job with this sight and I would hate to see anything happen to it.

 

[WebSlave]

Nicolai, I will be perfectly frank with you here. I really don't understand why someone NEEDS a place where they can post profanity, pointedly derogatory statements directed at someone else, and generally a place when they can act like 12 year olds on the playground. Some people actually NEED such a place? I have seen people here telling other people to take it to HELL so they can let it all hang out. Why? What is it about some people that they feel they have to drag a conversation into a gutter to make themselves understood? Yes, this may be a failing in myself, but I just don't see it.

HELL was designed to serve a particular goal. That goal was to get the crap out of the BOI and contain it. That plan (which was objected to by all three of my moderators, btw) was prior to fines and suspensions (I believe) and also prior to paid memberships. It did what I needed it to do THEN. Now, I believe that other controls will be just as effect, perhaps more so, and just KEEP the crap out of this site completely.

Certainly if people are willing to pay for that form of entertainment, I can certainly accommodate those wishes, but as you suggested, it will be closed to public scrutiny and only specific subscribers to it will be able to view and participate there. You all simply have to tell me that it will be worth my trouble to set it up for you, if that is what you need.

 

[WebSlave]

If there is a flux of change, perhaps my warning point could get zeroed out?..
Yeah, I know, nice try.....

I think courteous replies, even when one disagrees, are an excellent idea. As I have said before, I do not think it is necessary to be mean and nasty to get a point across.

The new warning system will be much different. Matter of fact, it may not even be viewable by the public. Still working on some unfinished details. The warning system kind of flies in the face of some aspects of what I intended for this site to do. I wanted it to be pretty much guided by the people using it. Rating systems, reputation systems, Good Guy certifications, even the BOI itself are all information resources using the members as the source of the information provided. The warning system is just about the only segment of this site that is not done in that manner, and it really was not intended to be used as a judge of a member's character. It is guided by myself and the moderators, not the members, and was supposed to be an audit trail showing everyone how WE pressed members to follow a loosely defined set of rules. Most of those "rules" are (I thought) just common sense, and I honestly didn't think I would have to spell them out in detail for people to understand what is expected of them in a public environment. It became something I did not intend, and in some ways abused as well. I know there is a bit of peer pressure involved, but honestly, some people ignore the warning points completely, and even some hold them up as some sort of badge of courage. And as was pointed out, what purpose does a warning system without teeth really serve? If there is no severe penalty for dozens of warning points, what message is that really giving to people?

Yeah, I still have some things to iron out, and likely compromises will need to be made concerning what I want to have done, and what is technically feasible from my programmer. And I have no doubts whatsoever that it will not be universally embraced either......

 

[shrap]

I for one take great pride in my ZERO warning points!!!

Let me just say this Rich, people are who they are. No amount of rules or regulations are going to change them or make them alter their behavior. Simply eliminating the element that is causing you grief is the only thing that is going to work. BAN 'EM.

 

[KelliH]

Once the modifications are in place, things are definitely going to change around here.

I for one am glad to hear this. I look forward to the changes. And, Rich... thanks.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Fauna has a wonderful diverse membership that spans the globe.

So what is needed for me to do in order to clean house? If anyone engages in any personal pissing duels or feuds in this thread or ANY thread within this particular forum, I will be pleased to escort you out of the door. So please bear that in mind. That doesn't mean you can't name names, but be extremely cautious in how you do so.

Fauna has many wonderful members. Truly, I am glad to be a part of this site.
I am thankful for the resources here. I believe many of us try to contribute positively in all areas of this site.

Rich, I would like to give constructive feedback on this thread about several points that have been brought up without distracting this thread into a “pissing match” with anyone.

I know you don’t read every post and may not understand the side conversations that are happening here with regards to Dennis1. You said we could name people as long as we are cautious in the way it is done. I will try to be respectful but informative.

As I said, This is a wonderful site with many diverse members. I believe it is also wonderful that we can all agree that racist or bigoted remarks have no place on any forum, including Fauna. Its great that when obvious bigoted remarks are observed they are dealt with accordingly.

Recently, a now suspended member felt the need to bash and degrade members of Fauna whom happen to be homosexual. I personally do not see any usefulness to allow members to be subjected to such statements. Opinions of this nature, no matter of ones personal beliefs, should not have a place on this board. These types of statements can serve absolutely no positive result and should be treated as any other bigoted remark. In my opinion, this person has belittled, insulted, called “degenerates” referred to as less than human, many members of Fauna based on beliefs, which really have no place here at all. This in my opinion does nothing to promote this site and contribute to the membership here.

The reason I bring this to light on this thread because it will help you understand the comments I am about to make about reputation abuse that has been brought up. Most of the comments are in regards to the above issue.

As far as where this site is headed, I see people commenting on how certain abuses are made. Ironically, it seems some of these complaints are coming from members who knowingly instigate such abuses and then sit back waiting for their target to respond, and then complain to Rich about it. I think we need to police ourselves a little more, and avoid leading others to the temptation to stray from the rules.

I would like to add to this statement. First, let me say I respect Paul and a great many of his posts. Even though I have not commented on this thread yet and this was not directed towards me, I would like to plead guilty and have already admitted to on another thread.

What I might add is this. If someone posts over a hundred derogatory posts on this forum and I believe them to be horrendous in nature, disgusting without a purpose. I had no problem with the rules at the time to give every single last post that was made, a negative and if I had the opportunity to give this person more negatives, I would have.

If this was wrong, I apologize for my actions and deserve warning points for this violation of site rules.

The difference I see with what Paul states in this quote

“I see people commenting on how certain abuses are made. Ironically, it seems some of these complaints are coming from members who knowingly instigate such abuse.”

I systematically took this persons reputation away based on the nature of his posts. Someone else systematically gave them back because he liked the conflict on this board.
I admitted to doing this openly in a post on another thread.
The other person has not.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman
And you will keep getting them for every single post YOU deleted in that thread. Why?
Quote: Particularly bad bigoted post!

Whenever I have reported posts for violation of the rules I have admitted openly

Originally Posted by Dennis1
Did wES go and cry and tattle to the mods AGAIN?
What a HYPOCRITE and a TROLL

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman
I reported your posts on the BOI and I will every time you step out of line.

I respect the rules on the BOI and hold them in extremely high regards. I have been helpful in directing new posters to the rules, when it is obvious that they have not read them. I have tried to be helpful on many threads on the BOI (to numerous to count) directing them through links to the information they are seeking.
With that, I do not think I'm above the rules.

Rich, I would like to believe Fauna will always be here and I will help in anyway I possibly can to contribute to its growth.

That doesn't mean you can't name names, but be extremely cautious in how you do so.

I cautiously name Bruce Stephenson and myself as reputation abusers.

Myself for taking reputation away from Dennis Dynes (Dennis1) and Bud. Bruce for giving it back to them.

 

[Wilomn]

Well said Dennis.

 

[shrap]

Standing Ovation!!!!!!

Well, sitting.... but the urge to stand was there.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

There is a poll on the BOI asking whether people wanted "ruthless" enforcement of the rules. I assume people fully understand what that term means. Because overwhelmingly, people are saying YES to that question, and perhaps are telling me the path I need to take now.

Once the modifications are in place, things are definitely going to change around here.

The one problem with that particular poll is that there were only two choices...black and white...all or none. There was a choice between ruthless enforcement and no enforcement at all. Most of the people on this site have enough common sense to see that if there are no rules in place that the BOI will go down in flames. In my opinion, there should have been a 3rd choice - leave things as they are.

In a place like the BOI, I don't think there should be room for shenanigans. That one forum had made and broken the reputation of countless people in the reptile business. Those who made it worked hard for it, and those who went down certainly earned it themselves. That is an invaluable service to the community. It can also be dangerous if it becomes abused - which is exactly the reason there MUST be strict rules in place.

All the other forums I believe should have a more relaxed approach, such as what is now in place. I like to think of it as a chatroom on slow-mo. People want to have a good time, and they do. People can take it too far with insults and personal attacks, and that shouldn't be allowed. We all need to act like adults (even the many teens running around here), and if you can't control yourself, you need to take it elsewhere.

I welcome the changes. I also think losing your subscription when suspended is a good way to add some teeth to the bite.

 

[WebSlave]

I am well aware of the fact that there are instigators here with the only goal in mind to stir the pot so that bad smelling odors might raise from the brew. In such cases, I may have to withdraw my normal policy of "innocent until proven guilty" and my inclination to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. There is such a thing as a "preponderance of evidence" that will need to be weighed and possibly acted on.

Certainly there are people here who simply enjoy baiting someone else with the intention of getting them in trouble with the mods from the anticipated response. These will be difficult to nail down, but again, a case history of this nature will soon begin to weigh against them I fully expect such people to play "Mr. Innocent" when the boom gets lowered, but hear me now, it will not change my decision, nor that of the moderators. I will make such decisions only after I have given enough thought about the evidence and then acted. I assume my moderators will be doing this the same way. Again, I strongly advise people to be very circumspect about not only what they post, but how they post it. Remember the "ruthless" enforcement. That means "no mercy". No "I'm sorry, it won't happen again." No "I made a mistake, please overlook it this one time." You hit the trip wire, so you either pay the fine to come back, or good luck at the next websites you frequent.

What I am envisioning for the new warning system will be a rather simple structure whereby all violations will be divided into only two categories: (1) Relatively innocent mistakes, such as posting without a full name, posting in a wrong category, or just a simple mistake in usual protocols in posting on a public message board. The member simply needs a bit of guidance in something that may be a simple mistake, or just ignorance (in the better sense of the word). These will be 1 point warnings. Then there is (2), which will be the more serious WILLFUL breaches of good taste and socially acceptable behavior in a public meeting place. Things like profanity, stalking, trolling, abusive behavior, and derogatory statements (both actual and implied). Those will be 10 point warnings and an immediate fine and suspension. The member will be locked out, possibly their paid membership revoked, and possibly and accumulated reputation points removed. They will receive a link to which they can pay the fine via PayPal to be reinstated. Reinstatement will return their access to the site, but the other perks will have been lost. No warnings. The "warning system" becomes a fast track out of here for those who engage in abusive behavior.

Any member who incrementally reaches 10 points, 1 point at a time, will automatically trigger the same penalty. My reasoning behind this is that if someone can make 10 mistakes here, then they need a sharper lesson to make them pay attention a little closer about what they are doing here.

Also, there will be a limit placed whereby any user who exceeds that limit (to be determined) will simply be permanently banned. I have been reluctant to institute out and out bans in the past, but I think I am over that now. There are times they are needed, and people to which this is the only option that is reasonable and prudent.

I'm just throwing out bits an pieces of what I am working on with my programmer to make some changes. Nothing is really set in concrete yet, so the specs and functionality could change drastically from inception to implementation. But that's what this forum is here for. So I can get some feedback and maybe keep me from doing something really stupid by overlooking something.

 

[WebSlave]

All the other forums I believe should have a more relaxed approach, such as what is now in place. I like to think of it as a chatroom on slow-mo. People want to have a good time, and they do. People can take it too far with insults and personal attacks, and that should be allowed. We all need to act like adults (even the many teens running around here), and if you can't control yourself, you need to take it elsewhere.

The "relaxed" approach might not be that good of an idea. It is the discussion forums where I have seen some new people literally slashed to ribbons by one or more people simply because they asked a basic question. This sort of behavior is exactly the sort of thing that chases away new members who get their feelings hurt by such behavior, think this site is just openly hostile towards them, and they leave, probably never to come back. This is one of the mannerisms some members have exhibited that I intend to end. Sorry, but I just do not agree that insults and personal attacks should be allowed at all, anywhere. That is exactly the sort of thing I have heard time and time again that many people dislike about this site. So I do intend to do something about it. That sort of behavior has no place on this site at all. Period.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

You got me before I could fix my typo...LOL! That paragraph should make a little more sense now. You should also now see that I don't disagree with you.

 

[nicolai]

Dennis I also applaud you for standing on the soap box and saying what needed to be said. I think that in the future instead of letting someone like that get under my skin like he did and go off, i will just report the posts and trolling as we should do and wait it out. I let anger get the best of me due to the GAY jokes and obvious trolling.
For the most part i do believe that 99% of the members have good intentions at heart and are here to have fun, chat, and learn. That is the biggest reason i decided to stay and join the community.Just like the states are instituting PEDIFILE (sp?) free zones near schools and parks maybe Rich could start instituting Troll free, bigot free and insult free zones or make the entire site the free zone.
As for my part in the rep point abuse shinanigans towards Dennis1 i hang my head in shame and hope not to get my knuckes smacked with the ruler!!!

P.S. He did deserve it though!!!!

 

[nicolai]

One other thing that came to mind as i was reading my emails. A lot of other sites send out regular emails to remind people of upcoming chats and events and keep them informed of the goings on of the site. Usually these emails prompt the people to pop in and see whats going on and possibly paticipate in something. How many people visit here and forget about it. A little reminder once in a while may not be a bad thing, it will keep fauna fresh in thier minds. Also there could be a favorites list for members CP where they could list the forums they like the most and be informed when something develops there or something is scheduled for that particular forum in general. I think both of these ideas will help to get more people interested and to participate.

 

[Jim O]

I cautiously name Bruce Stephenson and myself as reputation abusers.

Myself for taking reputation away from Dennis Dynes (Dennis1) and Bud. Bruce for giving it back to them.

If giving negatives to someone for deleting 50 or more posts in one thread for no good reason is reputation system abuse then I am guilty as well. I'm not ashamed of that as frankly he deserved it.

If coming to this thread and speaking of recent actions on this site by one particular individual (cautiously naming Denns1) was "baiting" then I am guilty of that too. However, it did allow you to see exactly what was happening.

Rich, you brought this entire subject up at a time when there were ~500 posts/day up from an average of 350. That is NOT a coincidence. I would have to wager that the site is back down to an "average" level the last couple of days. What happened? One "Obvious Troll" (using your moderators' words) was fined and suspended again.

I said this before but I will say it again. Allowing that level of disruption by one individual was a moderating failure. If you didn't see it happening you should have. Posts were up by ~40%. Were no bells ringing? A thread was posted offering a monetary reward for negative rep points and to be made negative rep point leader and the poster was not immediately suspended and the thread deleted? Then, after all of that, someone comes along and reverses it. And nothing was done?

I don't believe the system is entirely broken. There needs to be effective enforcement of exsiting rules and quicker tickets out. If my reputation system activities and my "baiting" have earned me that, show me the door. If it's permanent, I'll accept your decision. If it's a fine, I'll consider my options (for all fo 30 seconds most likely ). But making a ton of systematic changes to weed out a few bad eggs seems like overkill to me.

 

[WebSlave]

If giving negatives to someone for deleting 50 or more posts in one thread for no good reason is reputation system abuse then I am guilty as well. I'm not ashamed of that as frankly he deserved it.

Actually that is not a valid use of the reputation system. It was designed to be used by a member to rate a specific post made by another member. If I remember correctly, the ONLY two options available are something like:

• This is an exceptionally GOOD post
• This is an exceptionally POOR post

There is nothing in there at all to indicate that any other activity should be used as criteria for the reputation system to be used as a penalty from another member. If I am mistaken in that claim, please let me know.

If coming to this thread and speaking of recent actions on this site by one particular individual (cautiously naming Denns1) was "baiting" then I am guilty of that too. However, it did allow you to see exactly what was happening.

I didn't see it that way, otherwise you would have known about it.

Rich, you brought this entire subject up at a time when there were ~500 posts/day up from an average of 350. That is NOT a coincidence. I would have to wager that the site is back down to an "average" level the last couple of days. What happened? One "Obvious Troll" (using your moderators' words) was fined and suspended again.

Actually it is a coincidence. I did not know anything at all about the stats being up until I looked to figure out a reply to the statement about "consistency". As for the "troll" issue, if a troll gets a dozen or so people all worked up into a lather, each burning up their keyboard to reply to him, who won the round?

I said this before but I will say it again. Allowing that level of disruption by one individual was a moderating failure. If you didn't see it happening you should have. Posts were up by ~40%. Were no bells ringing? A thread was posted offering a monetary reward for negative rep points and to be made negative rep point leader and the poster was not immediately suspended and the thread deleted? Then, after all of that, someone comes along and reverses it. And nothing was done?

Do you seriously think I sit here reading everything 24/7? Do you think I really care to read stuff I have absolutely no interest in? Do you really think my time is of so little value to me that I have nothing better to do? Do you REALLY think I monitor the stats at all and would note an increase such as you indicate? Well if you do, I am sorry, but somehow you have become severely misinformed about what I do with my time and efforts. YOU have 4,000+ corn snakes hatch out and see how much time you have to spend on a secondary concern like this. I am only now beginning to get into a slower time of year, as the adults are going into brumation and a substantial portion of the babies have been sold, so THAT is why I am now turning more of my attention to this site. Sorry if you got the wrong impression about any external events that were bigger blips on your radar then they were on mine.

I don't believe the system is entirely broken. There needs to be effective enforcement of exsiting rules and quicker tickets out. If my reputation system activities and my "baiting" have earned me that, show me the door. If it's permanent, I'll accept your decision. If it's a fine, I'll consider my options (for all fo 30 seconds most likely ). But making a ton of systematic changes to weed out a few bad eggs seems like overkill to me.

Perhaps. But I think overkill is needed right now to turn the tide. I don't believe either myself or the moderators are really going to take much more time out of our lives to read more posts each day, but my intentions are to be much more hardline about violations that I feel are being detrimental to the reputation and functioning of this site. Fines and suspensions will be MUCH more frequently implemented, probably astoundingly so at first until people come to the realization that I am damned serious about this. Many people slapped with a fine will probably not believe they were in violation and I expect to be inundated with whine-o-grams, plus likely lose some long term members here because of it. That's the breaks. If someone cannot help promote a positive atmosphere with this site, or at least attempt to keep their involvement from being a negative influence, then they will be gone, one fine and suspension after another, until I see that a permanent solution is necessary.

I hope this explains my position a little better. My programmer has most of the specs he needs to implement the changes I have requested, so I expect this will be put in place within a couple of days. Once this is imminent, I will likely post a public message viewed outside of this Insider's Forum, for all members to view. Or perhaps as per Nicolai's post, I will broadcast an email to all members letting them know about the changes.

And to those of you thinking maybe that I enjoy throwing my weight around, sorry but you are very far off of the beam with such a thought. I have just had my nose rubbed into the fact that many people here are just crapping on MY rug in MY house and I need to do something about it. I just can't stand the smell any longer.

 

[Jim O]

Actually that is not a valid use of the reputation system. It was designed to be used by a member to rate a specific post made by another member. If I remember correctly, the ONLY two options available are something like:

• This is an exceptionally GOOD post
• This is an exceptionally POOR post

A deleted post that totally disrupts a thread is NOT an exceptionally POOR post? Perhaps not. But many dozen in a row add up to that in my opinion. What is exceptionally poor is, in fact a matter of opinion, and might be considered in the context of a thread. In some cases there are good reasons to delete a post. I can think of few good reasons for someone to delete that many. Again, this is an opinion.

Actually it is a coincidence. I did not know anything at all about the stats being up until I looked to figure out a reply to the statement about "consistency". As for the "troll" issue, if a troll gets a dozen or so people all worked up into a lather, each burning up their keyboard to reply to him, who won the round?

Do you seriously think I sit here reading everything 24/7? Do you think I really care to read stuff I have absolutely no interest in? Do you really think my time is of so little value to me that I have nothing better to do? Do you REALLY think I monitor the stats at all and would note an increase such as you indicate? Well if you do, I am sorry, but somehow you have become severely misinformed about what I do with my time and efforts. YOU have 4,000+ corn snakes hatch out and see how much time you have to spend on a secondary concern like this. I am only now beginning to get into a slower time of year, as the adults are going into brumation and a substantial portion of the babies have been sold, so THAT is why I am now turning more of my attention to this site. Sorry if you got the wrong impression about any external events that were bigger blips on your radar then they were on mine.

Sometimes there is a need to respond. Bigotry is one of those hot button issues for me. Perhaps that is because I was raised a Jew and born (relatively) shortly after the Holocaust. Oh, and the Nazis did murder family members of mine, and they also discriminated agaist male homosexuals (so kindly referred to as "fags" by Dennis1). Complaints were made about those posts and no warnings were even issued. Who won? No one won though one person is currently suspended. Sometimes the battles that one does not show up for say more about a person than the ones that one does. Eventually I put the one troll on ignore, realizing that I had no further interest in "debate".

If this site is more than you can handle with your other interests than you have choices to make. But if from the time hatchlings start appearing to the time they are mostly sold you are unable to "police" this site then whatever "improvements" you make now will likely be ignored again come hatchling season in six months or so. Then it can turn into the wild west again for six months until you decide it gets your attention. What then will you have accomplished? Perhaps the first order of consistency is that the owner of the site be consistent in attending to it or delegate enough of that authority so that you don't just wake up one day and smell the feces on your rug. It did not all get there in one day.

 

[WebSlave]

Yes, I know. Everyone knows better how to run this site then I do. Just darn lucky it has gotten as far as it has, I guess, in spite of my inept handling of it.

That is why I ask for input sometimes, to see where I am going wrong.

I am trying to do better, but in reality, no, this is not my main reason for living. And I certainly am at fault for believing the best in people rather then expecting the worst.