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hhmoore

hhmoore

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until today, I had kept my ATBs in sterilite containers with 1-2 perches and a mulch substrate, a small water bowl, and daily mistings. Twice in the last 4 weeks, I have come home in the morning to find a large female dead - with her mouth, airway, and esophagus filled with mulch. these were both animals that had been in my care for at least 4 months...both feeding regularly, outwardly healthy, and likely gravid (I had witnessed copulation on more than one occasion). In both cases, the animals had responded normally to my presence when I opened their containers the afternoon before (no sign of anything out of the ordinary). Given their size, I figure they were well into adulthood (both were adults when imported, and they were 6+ ft). Obviously, I have removed the mulch, but am curious if there is some reason for this - after all, I have kept ATBs in this manner for years without this happening. Is there something I am missing/ not considering? your input would be appreciated.
 
Oh man, that's scary especially since my adult breeding pair of ATBs are on . . . mulch! All my younger ones have paper towels in the bottom.

It's probably not the mulch. (I hope) They probably got the mulch in their mouths when they did their "death throes" (however you spell it). I have seen a few baby snakes that were obviously dying and they twisted and turned with their mouths open while on the bottom of the cage. I have never witnessed an adult do this however I would assume they may do the same thing.

Was there any chance that your snakes could have gotten overheated? I've found that too much heat will kill a snake really quick.

Keep us posted if you find out anything. I hope someone with more knowledge posts.
 
I thought about that, but I had cleaned mulch out of each of their mouths about a week before this happened. There was really no indication that there was anything going on, eating good, typical attitude when I misted them. I did half attribute the first one to increased temps, but it was only a few degrees for a couple of days (the temp only got to 86 and she was in a 73qt container with plenty of ventilation - shouldn't have been a problem). I remember seeing the last one on the substrate last night when I left, and she had some mulch in her mouth, but not enough for me to be concerned - or so I thought...I opened her up this morning and she had mulch wedged in pretty tight and a couple inches deep. I'm stumped, but my ATBs and ETBs are all on paper towels now also.
 
my best guess about this is that, for whatever reason, they stopped drinking out of their bowls. some days, I do a longer, lighter misting; other times it is shorter and heavier - not always based on sound reasoning, but usually pretty well mixed up. my thought is that they wanted to drink the droplets, and maybe the misting session didn't last long enough (or for whatever reason they didn't want to drink in front of me that day - usually if I see one drinking that way, I lighten up the mist and do everybody a little longer)..so they tried to drink off the mulch. maybe they got enough of it in their mouths that they wanted to get rid of it and (intelligent creatures that they are) rubbed their faces in the substrate and just got more of it. this is pure speculation, but I could see it happening. any other ideas??
 
My guess would be some kind of illness

A couple of years ago I had 4 new WC Emeralds. I'd had them for a few weeks and all were eating ETC when one morning I found one dead in the bottom of the cage, she had eaten a couple of days before it was the second meal she had taken for me. Later that day I noticed one of the others acting funny and it was dead by morning. I took them in and had my Vet check them and found both had an RI. They had not shown any signs that I noticed but a couple days later one of the WC males started blowing bubbles. I treated both the remaining animals for RI and got them through it though the forth animal never showed any sign of being sick at all. I've seen a few animals and heard of others that never showed sign of being sick till they were at deaths door or had just droped dead.

Ya never know with these guys.
Randy
 
That's certainly a possibility that I had considered. There really were no signs of RI, but I suppose I could have missed something (even I'm not infallible, lol). I guess the thing that gets me (aside from the fact that they weren't new arrivals) is the fact that several of my ATBs periodically end up with accumulations of mulch in/around their mouths. usually, it is no big deal; as the bigger particles tend to come off on their own, and the smaller ones either get washed off during misting/drinking or ingested when feeding. oh well - no more mulch...hopefully no more problems.
Thanks for the input
 
Earlier tonight I noticed my adult female ATB acting strange hanging out on the bottom of the cage where she never goes. I thought she was about to give birth. She has refused food for 31 days now and has gotten fatter.

Well I checked her about 10 minutes ago and she was doing the "death throes"! I think she is dying. I removed her from the cage which has a lot of branches and greenery, etc. (a chore since she is almost 7' long) Her body is pretty rigid and she let me free handle her when I got her out. Not something she would ever let me do. I don't know what to do. She'll probably be dead by morning. :(

She would have had mulch in her mouth, just like yours did, but I got her off the mulch before she got any in her mouth.

Now she is just laying in the Rubbermaid. I'm keeping her warm.

If it is a respiratory infection, why isn't she gaping now? She has no mucus in her mouth either.

I'm at a loss. I've seen snakes with a respiratory infection and she exhibits no signs of one.
 
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sorry to hear that you think she's done for. you're right, though - a dying snake will often twist around, and in the process get loose substrate in their mouths (in the case of mine-the dummies routinely accumulated the stuff). as for the RI question - in many cases, they do not gape...early on you'll hear an occasional little "click" or popping sound when they breathe. left unchecked, this will often turn into a more congested sound. in the high humidity species, you may not get the "wheezing" sounds because the mucous is well hydrated. actually, I'm pretty sure that if suspecting RI with atb's and the like, one should decrease the humidity a bit.
I'm not sure of the gestation period for these guys (this was the first year that I tried to breed them), but I think it is early for babies - it wasn't that long ago that you posted about suspected ovulation, was it? (oh jeez, the memory is going...time for another getting old talk from my wife)
I hate to lose any of my animals, esp without knowing why, but losing 2 gravid females makes me nuts. I was so looking forward to seeing what the babies would look like. I still have 1 possible gravid atb, and a few etb's. hopefully no more issues with them.
 
Yup, she died. She had brown runny fluid coming out both ends. It was really gross.

I cut her open and no babies so she wasn't gravid. I would have liked to get a necropsy done but there is no vet around that would do it (at least none I could get to in the next couple of days) There is one about 1.5 hours north of me who would do it but he wanted the animal today which is not possible.

Yeah I took a pic of what I thought was ovulation back in Dec. or Jan. but I guess it wasn't since gestation is about 120-150 days and she had no babies.

I have 5.1 more ATBs and I hope this doesn't happen to any more. I keep buying "females" and they turn out to be males. AArgh. The female who died was my biggest one by far and the one I've had the longest. I miss her already. As of today the mouse population grows!

I will see the reptile vet at a show on April 24 and I will pick his brains. I bet he's seen something like this before. I just wish I could have gotten the animal to him.

This is the first adult snake I've had to die and it's a major bummer. I've had baby sand boas born only to die a few days later but never an adult.

Oh crappy day today.
 
sorry to hear that she died. brown runny stuff out both ends?? - doesn't sound pretty. Bad enough I have to encounter that with people, don't want to see it in my collection too, lol.
Don't you love the "definitely a female" line? A guy tried that on me at a show I was at recently. I took a quick look and said it was a male, and he just got more insistent. told me that so and so had just looked at it and said it was a female, so he was sure. out came my probes - he didn't even believe me then...had to do it himself. I'll probably look for a few more females beginning early fall - only have breeding size females left. I'm sure my wife will make a little noise about that (why are you getting MORE of THOSE?), but not too much. *one nice thing about pythons - you have the eggs to carry you til the babies come.
 
Yup, the runny stuff stunk too!

After my last attempt at buying females at a show, I had my friend teach me how to probe. It won't happen to me again. Two different sellers at that show assured me 100% that the ones I bought were females. I told them I though the tails looked way to long to be females but who knows, I've only looked at about 30 of them so I'm really not an expert to say the least. (At least I knew how to handle them, the sellers wouldn't lay a finger on them, wooses) I got home and had my friend probe them and both were males.

I'm starting to like the egg layers just as much as the live bearers. At least you know they were pregnant. :) Tonight I have greyband babies poking their little heads out of their eggs. I can't wait until they hatch completely. It's my first attempt at hatching colubrid eggs and I'm having fun.
 
yeah-I think I dropped the ball with my greybands this year. introduced the male to a couple of females after they shed, didn't see any interest, and got distracted by everything else going on in my world. I suppose there is still hope-I know that people sometimes double clutch their colubrids, so there is no reason I shouldn't be able to start over/late. I've got 4 clutches incubating now: 2 of Cape York spotted python eggs, and 2 of jungle carpet/diamond x's. my other CY spotted never laid - that was kinda weird...witness copulation multiple times, she definitely looked gravid, was laying practically on her side, went off feed, then nothing. she should have been the first to drop. I have given up on the rest of my pythons for this year (well not really, I still hope). got some late additions to the collection - some had been cycled, some hadn't. witnessed a little courting, but nothing else. will really be scrambling if anybody else drops eggs, as my incubator is full. guess I could throw another one together quickly, or consolidate my eggs to make room, but I won't worry about it until I have reason. Next year, I will definitely a bigger, or another, incubator. And of course, the waiting game for the boas (1-2 dums, a yellow anaconda, an ATB (last of the 3 probably gravids :<(), and a few ETBs. plenty to keep me busy, if all goes well.
 
I acquired a pair of jungle carpets and both should be good to go next year. I got them for my utmost favorite price . . free. A friend of mine gave away all his boas & pythons. He got married and the new wife didn't like his big burmese pythons (even though she knew he had them when they were dating) so he gave away EVERYTHING! I knew he was looking to sell them so I had asked him just the week before what he wanted for the carpets. He bought them as babies two years ago and I know he paid a lot for them. He never got back to me and then boom. Do ya want them? Then come and get them. Wohoo happy day.

I've got greybands hatching right now, another wohoo. The parents are some snakes I've been babysitting while another friend's house is being built. He's already paid me very well for keeping them and I get half of the babies to boot. Can't beat that. I double clutched them. First clutch (hatching now) 11 eggs, second clutch 8 eggs.
 
Wow.. I think I'll have to ask Dr. Richard Funk about this one.. We were getting worried when our GTP was hanging out on the ground.. but she's back to normal now.. very wierd..

~Laine and John | www.scalesnthings.com
 
I'm pretty well convinced it was related to the misting - I've got a few that regularly stop drinking from the water bowl. If I don't mist them lightly enough/long enough, they start drinking off their coils and any low spots in the substrate. Hopefully once I get my lazy butt in gear and get them in their new cages and get them all prettied up (plants, vines, etc) this will cease to be an issue.
 
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