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Wrong Sexed - Opinion Needed

Boavoyage

Got Boa???
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
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Location
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Recently, I found out a female Peruvian that I bought in December last year turned out to be a male after popping (hermipeses showed). Also, a female 100% het albino that I bought in September last year also turned out to be a male (ball python had sexed by two different people with the same result). The Peruvian hasn't grown much. However, the ball python has grown from 250 grams to 800 grams (I bought supposed to be 1.2 and both of the males are 800 grams now, and the female is 1000 grams). I would like to know how would you handle this matter with the seller. Any input is greatly appreciated
 
John,

In my opinion it has to be refund or replacement for the right sex. If it's the second option it should be for an animal of similar size as you have invested a lot of time an effort in bringing these females up to where they are now.

Regards.
 
Thanks Alvaro for your input.

In regard of refund for the 100% het albino ball python, how much should be refund. Let say I spent $200.00 for a male het ball python and $500.00 for a supposed to be female het ball python last September (both are at 250 grams range). Now the female turned out to be male, if it's a refund, how much should be the refund? Because I figured a 800 grams male het for albino would be approx. $500.00 market value now, and a 800 grams female het for albino would be $1000.00 market value now. I was thinking about 2 options:
1) Refund the different market value for the python at the current weight, and I keep the male, which was supposed to be female.
2) Replace a het female at approx. 800 to 1000 grams for the supposed to be female het (since my other female bought at the same time from the same person has grown to 1000 grams in the same condition)

In regard of refund for the Peruvian, I thought of these options:
1) I will ship him back at the seller expense for a refund of the original purchase price plus the feeding cost I have spent from time of purchase.
2) Seller replaces a female at the same size and quality (if not better), and seller pays for all shipping cost involved.
3) Seller refunds the different in market price between a 5 feet male and female Peruvian. I still haven't figured out the different in market price for Peruvian, because it is based on not just size, but quality of the boa.

I also want to clear up just in case someone asks why didn't I sex them by that time, but now? I don't know how to sex snake. I kept them as hobby, and took seller's word for their sex. When I need to sex them, usually before I sell or trade them just to make sure the snake is proper represented, I either take them to a local pet stores, Prehistoric Pets or Reptile Haven, or a local friend here whom know how to sex. I was going to trade the Peruvian, and for the ball python, since I saw one female was grown bigger than the other, and the other female was at the same weight of the male, so I was doubt. Again, any input for this matter is greatly appreciate.
 
Because I figured a 800 grams male het for albino would be approx. $500.00 market value now, and a 800 grams female het for albino would be $1000.00 market value now.

John,

I think you are right on the money with your calculations and expectancies for $$$. Nevertheless it's going to be difficult to get that kind of money being refunded, particulalry with a market that is currently so slow.

With option one you are asking the seller to be out of the snake and out of more money. It's fair, you can try it, but it's going to be tough.

Option 2 seems to be more "realistic" and it will give the seller the option of not being at a complete monetary loss.

Again option two seems to have the greatest chance to end succesfully.

I also want to clear up just in case someone asks why didn't I sex them by that time, but now? I don't know how to sex snake. I kept them as hobby, and took seller's word for their sex.

In my opinion that's beyond discussion and not your responsibility. You bought a female. You are not supposed to verify that. Let me put it this way. If you buy a "healthy" snake, are you supposed to take it to the vet to verify that too?

A question on the side. Which prehistoric pets are you close by? The one that advertises in kingsnake.com.

Regards.
 
Thanks again Alvaro for your input.

In regard of your question, I live 45 minutes drive from either Prehistoric Pets in Chino (a.k.a. Reptile Guru) or Prehistoric Pets in Fountain Valley (posted on Kingsnake). I live 1 hour 30 minutes drive from Reptile Haven and LLL Reptile in Oceanside. However, only Prehistoric Pets in Fountain Valley and Reptile Haven are the only places I know that willing to help me or other customers to sex snake or answer questions. I tried LLL at one time, but they say they only sex snake that buy from their store. I haven't tried the Prehistoric Pets in Chino, although I have been to their store once.
 
I have to say I have some reservations about some of the options put forth here.
The seller has obviously made a mistake in both cases, and something should be done if possible to rectify it, but what lengths are to be reasonably expected?

First the time frame is pretty long. Errors in sexing are an unfortunate, but all too common occurance these days. In my opinion you should verify the sex of animals you buy, mainly to avoid such long terms in discovering the problem. It isn't like verifying the health of a snake, the health can change in 8 months, but the sex cannot.
Whether you verify it upon receipt or 6 months later doesn't change the fact that the seller made a mistake, but the length of time it took you to discover the problem factors into some of the options you are suggesting.

Concerning the ball,
1) Refund the different market value for the python at the current weight, and I keep the male, which was supposed to be female.
2) Replace a het female at approx. 800 to 1000 grams for the supposed to be female het (since my other female bought at the same time from the same person has grown to 1000 grams in the same condition)

Option one is affected by the length of time involved. Frankly I can't see this one happening at all.
Option 2 is the best case senario, and to me it would either be this one or a refund of the original purchase price.

On the boa
1) I will ship him back at the seller expense for a refund of the original purchase price plus the feeding cost I have spent from time of purchase.
2) Seller replaces a female at the same size and quality (if not better), and seller pays for all shipping cost involved.
3) Seller refunds the different in market price between a 5 feet male and female Peruvian. I still haven't figured out the different in market price for Peruvian, because it is based on not just size, but quality of the boa.

Again option one isn't going to happen. Feeding costs just cannot be considered in a refund. They increased with the length of time you have had the snake, and you cannot expect to punish the seller for that. Had the snake been the correct sex, you would have had the same investment in food anyway.
Option 2 is realistic, if the seller has an acceptable female.
Option 3 would be difficult because individual opinions of market value are significantly different.
Again replacement or refund of the original purchase price plus shipping fees are the only things to be reasonably expected.

While the mistake was at the hands of the seller, this is without question, at some point the buyer has to assume a degree of responsibility. This will involve the realization that feeding costs are not going to be refunded, and growth of the animal is another consequence of taking so long to report the problem.

As an example, my son bought his first snake, a female pastel motley cornsnake. It was a yearling at the time of purchase.
I never bothered to sex it, just trusted the seller's abilities.
Two years later I bought him a male to go with her and we discovered his was also a male.
Should I have went back to the seller and asked for a refund plus two years worth of mice I had fed the missexed animal? No.
Should I have even expected any monetary compensation after two years? In my opinion, no.
It was my fault for waiting two years to sex it, I should have done it immediately.
You waited 7 or 8 months, and in this instance I waited two years. Is there a difference? Where would the line be drawn?
What it boils down to is these are situations that we deal with as reptile keepers. It cannot really be compared to an unhealthy animal, it falls in the realm of human error, and we all make mistakes eventually. This should be taken into consideration when seeking a solution from the person who made the mistake.
 
It's still their fault whether they guarantee it or not. they made a mistake, and should make every effort to rectify it. However, after 8 months, I wouldn't exactly label them as a bad guy if they did nothing about it, because the problem would have been identifiable from the start. I personally would make every effort to fix the situation, but I can also see from the seller's point of view if he decided he was just not responsible after this length of time.
The questions I raised were just concerning what could be reasonably expected as restitution considering the time frame involved.

Normally exchange or refund of the original price plus shipping fees is pretty much all that you can expect. If the problem had been discovered right off the bat, then this would have been completely adequate. It's the time you took for the problem to be realized that is adding to your expectations of what you deserve. That length of time is not the fault of the seller.
It doesn't change the fact he is responsible for selling you the wrong sex, but you simply cannot punish him for your taking so long to discover a problem that would have been identifiable immediately.
Had it been a het that grew up and turned out to be normal, it would be an entirely different situation. You have no way of knowing if a hatchling is het, but you can tell the sex of it.

If it were me, the next time I was at either of the places that does your sexing, I would just have them teach me how to do it myself.
I say this, but right now I have no less than 15 snakes in my collection that I have never sexed but am raising as breeders. If some turn out to be the wrong sex, it wouldn't be the first time, but I won't be going back to the person who sold them to me either, I'm the one that has a set of probes in the cabinet but has neglected to sex them.
 
Had it been a het that grew up and turned out to be normal, it would be an entirely different situation. You have no way of knowing if a hatchling is het, but you can tell the sex of it.

As I stated, I don't know how to sex them, so there's no way I can tell the sex of it. I don't want to give myself an excuse here, but if everytime I buy a snake, I really don't feel that I have to drive 45 minutes or 1 hour 30 minutes to have him/her sex again. The reason I have my snake sex is when I was going to sell or trade them. Although they were sexed, it was my responsible to make sure they are properly sexed before I send them out. I don't expect to label the sellers bad guys unless they ignored my notification, and don't attempt to resolve. Also, since you bring it up, genetic and sex are things that will not change by time, not like health condition. What happen if it's a supposed to be het that turned out normal? Would the seller just refunds the original price and pays for the shipping fee involved? If it would not, why would it be different with sex?

If it were me, the next time I was at either of the places that does your sexing, I would just have them teach me how to do it myself.
I agreed that there's thing that you can learn. However, from what I learn, sexing snake, including poping and probing, should be better done by the professional.
 
As I stated, I don't know how to sex them, so there's no way I can tell the sex of it. I don't want to give myself an excuse here, but if everytime I buy a snake, I really don't feel that I have to drive 45 minutes or 1 hour 30 minutes to have him/her sex again.

Actually you are giving yourself an excuse. You shouldn't have to drive that far just to confirm you got what you were supposed to. You should however learn to sex snakes if you are going to be breeding them, or otherwise offering them for sale regularly.
People do make mistakes, they incorrectly read the probe depth, they accidentally get a sexed pair mixed up, these things happen. The more you deal with snakes the greater your chances of running into this problem. The best way to protect yourself is to learn to sex them.

Also, since you bring it up, genetic and sex are things that will not change by time, not like health condition. What happen if it's a supposed to be het that turned out normal? Would the seller just refunds the original price and pays for the shipping fee involved? If it would not, why would it be different with sex?

The difference is you have no way at all to determine the genetics of a het without breeding it, and that means you have to raise it for at least a couple of years. The sex can be determined at birth, or in the case of a buyer, as soon as you remove it from the snake bag if you so desire.
The point is who bears the responsibility? In the case of a het that turns out not to be, the seller bears full responsibility, because you have no means at all to determine the genetics. In the case of wrong sex, the seller bears the responsibility of supplying the correct sex, but at some point the buyer also bears the responsibility of determining if it is indeed the correct sex in a timely manner.
Part of this responsibility is realizing that the seller does not owe you for the food you gave the snake before you realized it wasn't the right sex.

I agreed that there's thing that you can learn. However, from what I learn, sexing snake, including poping and probing, should be better done by the professional.

What makes Prehistoric Pets or Reptile Haven, or your local friend professionals and more qualified to probe a snake than you? I think you're selling yourself a bit short here. There's no magic tricks, or secret techniques involved in probing. You can learn to be skilled at it just as anyone can.
You should of course be shown the correct technique by someone who is themselves skilled in it, but there's no reason to limit the practice to the "professionals".
Years ago I used to load up all my hatchlings every year and take them to a good friend of mine's house. We'd order pizza and he's sex my snakes. I'd usually give him a pair of something he wanted for his trouble.
I did this because I was afraid to sex snakes myself, I feared injuring them.
I came to realize that this was a skill that I needed to know, so I bought a set of probes and that fall I took all my hatchlings over to his house and had him teach me. Any I was unsure of, he double checked for me. By the time we were finished, I had learned the feel of it, and was capable of sexing everything for myself from that point on.
 
Not to call into question the people who probed the snakes and determined the genders were wrong but...

Probing an animal once when a customer brings it in has a greater element of doubt inherent in it than probing it a few times to be certain of the gender in your own home/facility prior to sale.

It's not difficult to sex snakes correctly, probing is a simple thing to learn... but it's also not difficult to slip occasionally and missex an animal due to simple human observational error on occasion.

What you are asking your sellers to do is trust the word of a third party, months after the sale was concluded (And I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume any guarantees have long since passed, while it would be an issue of misrepresentation IF the animals were missexed and should be corrected, you have already expressed your satisfaction and the guarantees have ended, legal responsibility might be tough to prove).

Rather than approaching the sellers with YOUR solutions and YOUR price estimates, perhaps you should simply contact them and politely ask if they could make the situation right for you. Don't be surprised if they want the animals resexed by additional sources, unnamed retail clerks at a store uninvolved with the transaction might not be taken at face value.

I do agree with Clay though, after the duration of time has passed in this manner and you simply failed to verify things like Gender when the opportunity was there, some of the responsibility for the mistake lies on your shoulders... and ALL the responsibility for the duration of time it took to discover the mistake, it's not really fair for the seller to reimburse you for food and the value increase in growth when the mistake should have been discovered before they became an issue.

If you buy a car and it turns out to have a problem, when you return it, you can't demand a refund for the gas you bought when you kept it... especially if you don't return it until months later. A live animal isn't a car of course, but a certain parallel can be drawn between the situations.

It comes down to a situation of (unintentional) misrepresentation of the animal... the problem is, the misrepresentation is not something it should have taken eight months to determine...

You asked if you should have to take animals sold as healthy to a vet... Maybe not if they aren't showing problems, but wouldn't you at least get a fecal done within a reasonable period of time?

If an animal was sold as being a certain color and when you opened the box it was not... you wouldn't wait eight months to demand a refund, right?

Gender determination is the same way, it's a pretty quick proccess and when you're spending money on animals you hope to use as breeders, it's worth a forty five minute drive if you can't determine it yourself.
 
First, I also want to thank Clay and Seamus for your's inputs. They gave me a different point of view.

What makes Prehistoric Pets or Reptile Haven, or your local friend professionals and more qualified to probe a snake than you? I think you're selling yourself a bit short here.
The answer is EXPERIENCE. With only a little more than 3 years of keeping boa as a hobby in compare to years that they have been in the market with the amount of snake come in and out everyday, I think they are more qualified to sex a snake.

I also have few questions to ask:
1) What is the common method of sexing neonate ball python? Pop or probe?
2) Is it possible if a neonate ball python was POPPED as a female (by experience people), turned to be a male in adulthood? If it is, how would this matter be handle?
3) In my case to be specific, the seller POPPED the neonate ball pythons in front of me during the transaction. They were looked 1.2 legit. However, after 8 months, they were popped again by two different experience sources, which were also acceptable by the seller, they turned out 2.1. I will meet the seller either today or tomorrow so that he can verify them as well as their sex. If they are indeed 2.1, is it my responsibility since I was there when he POPPED them?
 
The answer is EXPERIENCE. With only a little more than 3 years of keeping boa as a hobby in compare to years that they have been in the market with the amount of snake come in and out everyday, I think they are more qualified to sex a snake.
Three years is plenty of experience to start learning more advanced techniques, and these experienced people are good choices to learn from.
Whether you pursue the ability or not is up to you though.

1) What is the common method of sexing neonate ball python? Pop or probe?
This depends on who you ask. Some people are very skilled at "popping" and rely on that technique, some can't do it at all and probe instead. Then there are those like myself that pop them first, then probe all the females just to verify it.

2) Is it possible if a neonate ball python was POPPED as a female (by experience people), turned to be a male in adulthood? If it is, how would this matter be handle?
Yes it is. For various reasons a male may not evert a hemipene during popping. He may have a little better muscle control, or the person doing it may not be in exactly the right spot on that particular animal. This is why I only consider it a male if a hemipene is fully everted, and then probe all the females to make sure they are indeed female.
This again falls under human error, it happens. However, it is my opinion that snakes which are determined to be female by popping should be probed to make sure.


If they are indeed 2.1, is it my responsibility since I was there when he POPPED them?
You were really just there as an observer while the breeder did his thing. When you watch someone pop a snake, you may also be watching them fail to do it right, you have no way of knowing when it isn't your hand doing the job.
I know I'm getting repetative, but the females should have been probed after popping. Some people are very skilled at it and rarely make a mistake, but for many people, like myself, popping alone cannot be relied upon in the case of females.
 
Just to be clear, are you saying I can safely probe very young ball pythons? Ones that are say between 65 and 75 grams?

And to stay on topic~ Boavoyage, looks like we may be neighbors. I have the video "Sexing snakes" by Dr. Seward and a set of probes. I have worked up the nerve to probe some of my larger snakes and so far have accurately identified a "Female" amel corn as a male (So I bred him to one of my females and am incubating eggs by him right now!) I tried "Popping" the 4 small ball pythons I got recently, but they all popped as "Female" and one is SUPPOSED to be a male~ So I think I'm probably just not brave enough to push hard enough to evert a hemipene. (Knowing my luck they are all males!)
 
Just my thoughts

Yes you can probe any snake at any size. As to popping ball pythons. It is not even close to the same thing as popping a corn snake. nor do they look the same. It is always best to have someone that knows help until you can learn how to your self.

If I was the one who sold the animals to you. I would ask that you ship them back to me at your cost so I could verify that I had sexed them wrong and If I did I would refund the shipping and replace the said animal. If I had one. Just my thoughts.
 
Just to be clear, are you saying I can safely probe very young ball pythons? Ones that are say between 65 and 75 grams?

You can probe colubrids that are a fraction of that...

It's just a matter of using the proper probe width and, especially with the smaller/lighter animals, being gentle to ensure that you don't cause any punctures (Not a frequent occurance anyway).
 
Cheryl, I think you're in So. Cal. too. If you are and you're up for it I'd be happy to show you how to pop and probe in person. My job takes me on the road a lot so I may well be in your neighborhood making stopping by no problem. I've only been doing about 15 years though so I may make a mistake.

Wes Pollock
 
Hey John, ready to butt heads again?

How are you even sure of the sexes now? Seller told you one thing and now someone else has told you the other. IF (BIG IF) the snakes were sold as guaranteed sex, AND they are the wrong sex, AND you have the receipt, AND can prove these are the same snakes, THEN the seller should work with you on this problem.

However, YOU need to learn how to sex snakes if you are going to be in this business. The seller cannot be held responsible forever, and especially not after you've sold the snakes to someone else. Additionally, sexing, popping, probing, whatever doesn't always work. I have a corn snake at home that I would have bet you $1000 bucks was a male until last year when it laid 22 eggs! So mistakes will happen. But, you (the buyer) should confirm the sex of the animal(s) you buy before you buy them if possible, and if not, as soon as possible after you get them home. Not a year later.

Some sellers sell literally thousands of animals each year, some that many each month or even week, so the seller may not even remember you or the snakes. So the first thing you need to do is contact them and see what they say. If they say they will guarantee the sex, then they'll need to verify that your animals are the ones they sold to you, then THEY ( the original seller) will need to sex them, then yall can discuss what reparations need to be made. Sounds like in this case the sellers will work with you. That's great, but in the future you need to take on the responsibility of learning to sex them yourself.
 
Crap! Didn't realize there was a second page to this post. So some of my points were already discussed. Oh well, good luck.
 
How are you even sure of the sexes now? Seller told you one thing and now someone else has told you the other

turned out to be a male after popping (hermipeses showed)

At least one of them he can be pretty sure about...

But speaking in more general terms for anyone reading this who has their animals probed as a gender other than what it was sold as, I agree totally, before approaching the seller over the issue, you should make darn sure that you're positive the animal was (hopefully unintentionally) misrepresented.

IF (BIG IF) the snakes were sold as guaranteed sex, AND they are the wrong sex, AND you have the receipt, AND can prove these are the same snakes, THEN the seller should work with you on this problem

I'm kinda surprised Tim hasn't chimed in with this yet but...

At what point does it stop being the seller's problem?

A question that has been raised over numerous issues in the past, an animal not eating for a period of time well outside the seller's guarantee... health problems developing weeks after it was sent, a whole host of issues where sellers have been pressured to step outside their stated terms and fix an issue. Heck, Davey and Neil with that missexed boa not long ago where Davey discovered the mistake within a fairly short time frame after the sale was made...

But the difference between Davey's situation and John's is the duration of time that had passed... Davey contacted the seller immediately to express a form of dissatisfaction with the size of the animal and the mistake on the issue of gender was discovered shortly after (Less than a week if I'm remembering correctly) so the consensus was that Neil should offer some compromise to correct the situation (Although I think a lot of people took Davey's side even more strongly after Neil claimed that putting 0.1 in an ad wasn't the same as representing it as female)...

In John's case, months had passed before the gender was discovered.

While I certainly think it would be in the best interests of the seller to offer something by way of componsation in order to bring about a mutually acceptable resolution and keep everyone satisfied if not 100% happy...

Gender determination is something that is not that difficult to do (even if it's done by taking a 45 minute car ride) and after a certain point a buyer needs to admit that the problem was increased because of the duration of time spent in reccognizing it and accept partial responsibility for not picking up on it sooner (Which John has done in a very dignified and professional manner I might add)...

So while the mistake was the sellers, it was compounded by a mistake by the buyer (it happens on both sides) and while it would be nice to see a compromise offered... It can't really be demanded.
 
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