Wrong Sexed - Opinion Needed

[The BoidSmith]

In this I will have to amicably disagree with some of the opinions. If we are suggesting that the buyer should know how to sex (which I happen to agree with if he is planning on breeding in the future), then it stands reason that the seller, an established business should guarantee the sex regardless of the elapsed time. This is obviously taking into consideration that the snake can be identified properly as being the one he shipped. Let us suppose that I buy a 20K female piebald (that was priced 5K more than the males; bear with me I'm being extremist here)from "Big Breeder XXX" as I have a similarly valued animal at home (I wish!). After raising them for 3 years it turns out they are two males, and that I can't afford to buy an adult female. What do I do now?

 

[bpc]

Alvaro,

20K or $20, you should sex that animal when it arrives! I don't think it's fair to hold the seller accountable for a trait, you, the buyer, can't even determine yourself.

Seamus,

How are we sure that John knows what a hemipene looks like? I know I knew how to probe before I ever learned to "pop," so maybe he's seeing something else. Extreme argument I know, but I know mistakes can be made easily when sexing an animal, so if the sex of the animal is that important I check it right away. Think about it, you're the breeder, you sold 1234 animals last year. 434 of those were ball pythons. Low and behold one day someone calls you up and says, "Hey, remember that female ball you sold me? Well the guys up at the petstore by me, say it's a boy. So, I think you should bend over and take it up the ........" That's the impression I got when reading some of John senarios for what should happen.

I think the first thing that should happen is John should learn how to sex the animals he eventually hopes to breed. Either that or stick to parthenogenic lizards (all females, don't need males to reproduce). Not trying to be rough on John, but 8 months is way to long to let something like this go. I know I can't even remember which shows I did last September much less which snakes I sold to whom, and what sexes they were supposed to be.

 

[Seamus Haley]

How are we sure that John knows what a hemipene looks like?

An extreme argument to be certain and... I doubt applicable in this instance, but certainly worth mentioning as the thread and discussion involves not just the specifics of John's case but could be applied to similar situations encompassing different parties.

I do firmly feel that the seller SHOULD make an attempt to make this right, either through some financial reparations for the price differences or by exchanging the animals for those of the correct genders...

But I also don't see them as being obligated to do so because of the duration of time between the sale and the discovery of the mistake.

So... a class act good guy would do something about it, but not fixing it doesn't automatically mean the seller is bad.

Make any sense?

 

[Boavoyage]

Thanks again everyone, for your inputs. It proves that this site is very helpful in getting information and learning. I really mean it, no scarcastic (sp?) here.

I think the first thing that should happen is John should learn how to sex the animals he eventually hopes to breed. Either that or stick to parthenogenic lizards (all females, don't need males to reproduce). Not trying to be rough on John, but 8 months is way to long to let something like this go. I know I can't even remember which shows I did last September much less which snakes I sold to whom, and what sexes they were supposed to be.

One thing I learn from this post as well as Greg Riso's post regarding the Hypo het Anery is that I will never buy from Brian Conley. I'm sorry Brian, it's not personal, but from your point of view, you are not a RESPONSIBLE seller. Once the animal leaves your hand, unless the buyer find there's a problem RIGHT AWAY, you don't take any responsible for it at all. Also, you just said that you don't keep good record of your animals, too.

Let me give you some example of responsible sellers.

For my ball pythons, they were sexed by two different people here in Southern California. Although I don't know how to sex snake, and it doesn't mean I will never know to sex snake, I can tell if there's something stick out from my snake butt (called it hermipeses, winkies, or whatever you want to call it). Also both people told me that it's a male. I emailed my seller and didn't plan to press charge or post him as a bad guy (and that's the reason I posted here in General Discussion because I just want to learn from other's opinion and share my opinion so that someone can correct me if I am wrong so I can learn from it also). AND THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO LEARN IF YOU PLAN TO SELL SOME SNAKE BRIAN:
The seller called me back. After I let him know who were the ones sexed the python (he knows and trusts both of them), we arranged to meet on Tuesday so that he can verified if they were his snakes and if he missexed them. We met on Tuesday night as scheduled. He checked them out, and found out the one supposed to be a female had "tiny winkies" (his words). Then he took pictures of them for his record so that he can compared with his pictures. Then he told me that he will give me another 02 female, and I can keep the male, since he made the mistake, and he wants to compensated me for all the inconvenience. We were scheduled to meet on Thursday night (since I want him to have time to verify the pictures). We made last night, and he gave me another 2002 female het ball python. She was a little smaller than 800 grams, but she was a gogeous ball python. On top of that, she ate a fuzzy rat when I gave to her last night at 10:00 p.m.
I don't know if you will learn anything from it, but to me, a good practice to be a seller is you need to back-up your animal. Health, feeding are thing out of your hand. However, genetic and sex can't be changed by time. And you also need to keep good record of animal you sold, since it will protect your end. You can't just said it's not my animal without showing proof that it's not your animal (don't tell me that it's also the BUYER'S responsible to prove that the animal is your.)

In regard of the Peruvian, although either the seller or I figure out how to handle the situation (which I prefer to hear from the seller's opinion first), the seller and I have been keeping contact. He has given suggestion and offer assistance helping me to sell the snake, and ensure me he will make it right in some way. Even IF we can't reach a way to resolve this matter, he is not a bad guy, and I am still happy and appreciate that he responsed to the matter, show that he's a trustworthy seller/breeder that I will not be hesistate to buy from. It is much better that if he just tell me, "Tough luck. I can't even remember which shows I did last September much less which snakes I sold to whom, and what sexes they were supposed to be

Again, thanks alot everyone, and sorry for the long post. I just want to notify how my situation was resolved and posted my point of view.

 

[The BoidSmith]

OK, I might be wrong, but regardless of the time elapsed, I still think that if one is in the business of selling reptiles the seller needs to know how to sex a snake. The fact is he should guarantee the sex for as long as he is able to recognize the buyer and the snake in question. Health and other guarantees may expire, but I do not put sex into this category. John bought a certain sex and that is what he should have received.

Regards.

 

[Boavoyage]

I don't think it's fair to hold the seller accountable for a trait, you, the buyer, can't even determine yourself

Since you love to use car as an example, here is my question: Do you need to be a mechanic in order to buy a car? Because, my company assigned me a truck. I drove only 72 miles and the "Check Engine Light" was on and I don't know what's going on. Tell me what should I do, because my company's mechanic asked me to take it back to the dealer...

 

[Clay Davenport]

Few, if any, of the people on this thread are disputing the fact the seller has a responsibility in this situation. What is being brought into question is the degree of responsibility the seller bears as time passes.
If a snake is purchased as a female, and raised for two years before it is discovered that it's a male, the seller can't be expected to locate a 2 year old female to fix the error. The delay to the buyers breeding program is his own fault for not sexing the animal sooner. Had the sex been determined a month after purchase, a replacement hatchling would have been fine, so you can't penalize the seller for the delay in which he had no control over.
Likewise such things as food and cost of care during that period are not the fault of the seller and he can't be expected to bear that burden.

Basically if someone plops down 10 grand for a piebad ball and fails to sex it for two years, I feel, if anything, the seller owes him a hatchling, or a refund of the purchase price, or a refund of the difference in purchase price if there is any and the buyer keeps the animal. The value of the animal is not pro rated due to its age when the mistake was discovered. The delay to his breeding efforts is his share of the responsibility for the time that has elapsed.

Mistakes happen. It's not a matter of the seller not knowing how to sex a snake, everyone makes these mistakes at some point.
The way I see it, as a snake breeder, I'm willing to help a buyer all I can and go to lengths to correct any errors I may make. I cannot however, be expected to hold the buyers hand for the lifetime of the snake. Neither should I be expected to keep pictures of every snake I hatch along with all the details of the sale for years to come. Perhaps this may be warranted in the case of hets worth thousands of dollars, but not for the average snake. At some point he must begin taking responsibility for his actions.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Basically if someone plops down 10 grand for a piebad ball and fails to sex it for two years, I feel, if anything, the seller owes him a hatchling, or a refund of the purchase price, or a refund of the difference in purchase price if there is any and the buyer keeps the animal.

I like Clay's proposal. It seems to contemplate both sides.

Regards.

 

[Boavoyage]

If a snake is purchased as a female, and raised for two years before it is discovered that it's a male, the seller can't be expected to locate a 2 year old female to fix the error. The delay to the buyers breeding program is his own fault for not sexing the animal sooner. Had the sex been determined a month after purchase, a replacement hatchling would have been fine, so you can't penalize the seller for the delay in which he had no control over.

Likewise such things as food and cost of care during that period are not the fault of the seller and he can't be expected to bear that burden.

Basically if someone plops down 10 grand for a piebad ball and fails to sex it for two years, I feel, if anything, the seller owes him a hatchling, or a refund of the purchase price, or a refund of the difference in purchase price if there is any and the buyer keeps the animal. The value of the animal is not pro rated due to its age when the mistake was discovered. The delay to his breeding efforts is his share of the responsibility for the time that has elapsed.

I am totally agree with Clay's point of view. Both of buyer and seller have some responsible at some point.
My example of taking pictures for record is plainly an example.
Best regards.

 

[bpc]

John, I sold approximately 450-500 animals last weekend at the Raleigh show. So according to your logic, I should recognize every single one of them 8 months from now?!?!? John, you're taking my style of arguement much to personally. I'm not saying you should go take a long walk, off a short pier, but you should know how to sex snakes before you start buying expensive ones, and trying to breed them, right?

I think even you would agree that a horse breeder should be able to tell the difference between a male horse and a female one, right? So why do you get a pass on knowing how to sex snakes? It takes 10 minutes to learn (if that long). Boas are easy, ball pythons are difficult. So everyone makes mistake on them, that's why you (the buyer) should verify asap. Especially if you're spending the kind of money you're talking about.

If you were sold a guaranteed female ball by this guy and he recognizes the snake and is willing to fix his mistake great! But, to use your car analogy, if you pull up to the dealer, 8 years from now, with no registration for the truck, and all the VIN numbers rubbed off, do you really think they are gonna fix it for free?

As for you not buying from me, oh well. All I've tried to do here is play the devil's advocate to help people see ALL sides of the issues presented. If you look back at the Greg Riso post, you'll notice that in the end he agreed with me about trusting people you don't know. By the way, come see me at the Daytona show and I'll be happy to teach you how to probe a snake. I'll be in the west lobby right by one of the doors (north I think).

 

[NEWReptiles]

One thing I learn from this post as well as Greg Riso's post regarding the Hypo het Anery is that I will never buy from Brian Conley.

Whew, thought I was the only one.

As far as knowing how to pop/probe, I have been keeping herps for over 12 years and breeding for the third season now, and I still dont have the slightest clue how to probe. I watch every time its done to my animals, and think I would be able, but do not do it myself. I find it easier when my more expensive snakes come in, to spend 30-40 bucks, and have my vet check them out and sex them.

I would understand the frustration here, and im glad it worked out for you John. It seems the person you dealt with is very honest.

 

[Wilomn]

Two years ago I sold a guy a pair of false water cobras. This year he called to tell me I had sold him a pair of females. Unfortunately last year during one of our heatwaves, it was about 112 my AC unit in the snake room broke down and both of my large female breeders died. No babies until next year. I will give him a male for free and if I had one now I'd most likely do the same. Though if I was giving him a breedable male two years after the initial sale I may ask for a pair or two of babies back if he got good eggs and they hatched. But even if he said no, I'd still be OK with it, afterall it was my mistake in the beginning. Thank goodness my mistake wasn't the other way around,having him wind up with two males. He didn't seem to be too terribly upset with the way things worked out.

Wes Pollock

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

In this instance, I find myself pretty much totally agreeing with Brian(shocking, I know ).

I personally think that if the sex of the animals you are buying is THAT important, you need to verify it IMMEDIATELY upon arrival or at the very least within a day or so. I NEVER take the seller's word for it anymore, no matter WHO it is unless I watched him/her probe it in front of me, and even then I'll double check it on my own(in one case right in front of the seller immediately after he probed the snake).

I've been keeping reptiles since I could walk, and I bred my first herps when I was 9(California and Firebelly Newts). Even when I was 9 and wanted to breed newts, I learned how to sex them. I didn't learn how to probe snakes until about 5 years ago, but anytime I purchased sexed groups, I had someone I trusted double-check for me within 24 hours. It was COMMON SENSE. Mistakes get made, which is an unfortunate side of business, BUT you cannot expect to be able to bend over the seller NOW because he/she missexed a snake 2 years ago because YOU never bothered to make sure a mistake wasn't made.

Now, I definitely agree that missexing a snake is the seller's mistake(hopefully), but waiting 8 MONTHS to find out a mistake was ever made is the buyer's problem. If you were that concerned about the sex, you should have verified ASAP. Even if you don't know how/aren't willing to learn how to sex snakes(really it only takes a few tries to get the hang/feel of it), you know people that CAN, but you still chose not to utilise those resources until months later. I think the seller should properly sex the animals, and should problems arise over it, he/she should resolve the issue. BUT, if the buyer waits 8 MONTHS and grows the snakes up(how can he even be sure those are the same snakes he sold you in the first place?), THEN gets them sexed, would anyone blame the seller for a)only doing the minimum required to rectify the situation, or b) not do anything at all? I know I wouldn't, and honestly, were I the seller, I would be VERY leary of doing anything for that buyer. 8 DAYS later, heck even 8 WEEKS, yeah I'd do what I could to fix it(refund/exchange), but 8 MONTHS later and I'd be inclined to not really offer you much help, ESPECIALLY if you came to me with the(in my opinion)ridiculous list of demands you came up with(how do I know how much you actually fed that snake the last few months? for instance).

And if that turns you away from doing business with me, I'm sorry, as I feel I'm generally pretty easy to deal with and I feel I sell good animals(though relatively few and far between these days), but there is no way I am going to bend over for a customer who waited 8 months to notify me of a mistake.

Since the car analogy is beat to death just about, try this one...

You buy an advertised working and functional digital camera off of a seller on eBay. Now, you don't decide to put batteries in or use the camera for 8 months because you were unsure of how to use the camera and you find out the camera doesn't work. Now, you went 8 months before even CHECKING to see if the camera worked. Should the seller be responsible because it took you 8 MONTHS to get off your lazy duff to open the box and test the camera out?

 

[bpc]

Rob!!! Nice analogy man! Sorry you had to agree with me, I'll try not to let it happen again.

 

[Boavoyage]

Since the car analogy is beat to death just about, try this one...
You buy an advertised working and functional digital camera off of a seller on eBay. Now, you don't decide to put batteries in or use the camera for 8 months because you were unsure of how to use the camera and you find out the camera doesn't work. Now, you went 8 months before even CHECKING to see if the camera worked. Should the seller be responsible because it took you 8 MONTHS to get off your lazy duff to open the box and test the camera out?

Nice analogy man!

Are you kidding me? The camera works or not is just as same as the snake healthy. It can be changed due to time, and that's why your car dealer have either 3 years or 36,000 miles guarantee. It's either you drive your car alot, or leave it alone, there is some mechanical failure after certain time. But when was the last time you see a snake change its sex down 8 months or 2 years???

I NEVER take the seller's word for it anymore, no matter WHO it is unless I watched him/her probe it in front of me, and even then I'll double check it on my own(in one case right in front of the seller immediately after he probed the snake).

but anytime I purchased sexed groups, I had someone I trusted double-check for me within 24 hours.

In the case of the ball python, the seller, also one that I trust, popped "her" in front of me, and it looked legit a girl. 8 months later, same seller, popped the same snake and it turned out a boy. Do you think I performed a sex change operation on her?

It was COMMON SENSE. Mistakes get made, which is an unfortunate side of business, BUT you cannot expect to be able to bend over the seller NOW because he/she missexed a snake 2 years ago because YOU never bothered to make sure a mistake wasn't made.

Everyone makes mistake everyday, but it is NOT an unfortunate side of business. The unfortunate side of business is someone doesn't have the ball to responsible for the mistake he/she made. I don't expect I am so perfect that I can make sure a mistake wasn't made. Yet, I don't expect to bend over the seller NOW for his/her mistake 8 months ago. I notified them, and listened to their offer. I posted here in General Discussion so that I can hear from everyone's opinion, and I mean OPINION! I also gave my OPINION, which you considered as a ridiculous "wish" list, so that everyone can contribute or correct it. I did not posted any "Bad guy" post because of missex. I did not demand my seller fulfill my ridiculous "wish" list.

And if that turns you away from doing business with me, I'm sorry, as I feel I'm generally pretty easy to deal with and I feel I sell good animals(though relatively few and far between these days), but there is no way I am going to bend over for a customer who waited 8 months to notify me of a mistake.

The thing that turns me away from doing business with you, because you are not responsible for your mistake, and it doesn't matter if you are "Mr. Nice Guy" or "Mr. Perfect" 8 months, 2 years, 20 years, a mistake is a mistake. Do you think if someone murder other 20 years ago, and nobody caught him, should he be considered innocent NOW?

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

John,

for the camera not working, it is exactly the same. Think for a minute. You buy a camera and NEVER check to see if it works. You leave it in the box on a shelf for 8 months. When you decide now 8 months later to try the camera out, you find out it doesn't work, and probably NEVER worked(it sat on a shelf for 2 years with no interaction from you, so you didn't drop it or break an attachment, it was the exact same as when you bought it). Now, what does common sense tell you when you buy a camera or some other electronic gadget? Plug the darn thing in when you get it to make sure it works!!! You wouldn't leave your new camera on the shelf for 8 months, you would have popped batteries in it and tried it out as soon as you got it, right? The seller told you it worked, so you are going to assume it works and never test it out to see? That is a firm NO I can pretty much guarantee it.

This is the same with the snake. You paid for a female ball python. The seller popped it in front of you, okay. What if the seller did it wrong? What if the snake didn't want to be popped and tensed those muscles up? You just believed him on what is generally known as not an always accurate sex determination "trick(couldn't think of a better word)" and you were too lazy/squeamish/busy/lazy to get a second opinion. Like with the camera, common sense would at least tell ME to probe it myself(oh wait, you refuse to learn how, so scratch that) or at the VERY least get it to someone who CAN and WILL just to be sure, ESPECIALLY if you're spending the kind of money you're talking about in het animals(oh wait the place that checks for you is 45 minutes away, and you're too lazy/busy/lazy to take the snake there for firm confirmation). Basically, you left the snakes in the cage for 8 months before bothering to check if they were the correct sex. That is essentially the same as leaving the camera on the shelf for 8 months before checking if it worked. Both were problems/mistakes that existed on the seller's side from the beginning, noone doubts that. However, it was YOUR mistake to wait so long to verify that a mistake was ever made.

I think it's a perfectly good analogy(but of course, I made it up, so I guess I WOULD like it, eh? ).

Now, I am glad that the seller of the ball python was great. He went above and beyond in customer service, and if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to know his name as he sounds like someone I would like to buy from. Heck, ANYONE that would take my word for it that they missexed a snake I purchased 8 months ago and immediately give me two free females to make up for it is someone we ALL need to do business with. This is no offense meant towards him, but I bet the scammers would love him. "Hey, I bought a female het albino from you a year ago, and uh, now it's probing male, can you give me two free females like you did that other guy to fix this?"

Now, would I go out and be THAT customer friendly to you 8 months later? Honestly, the answer is NO. And here's why(I'll explain it again)...
After 8 months of food and growth, how exactly am I too be sure it is the snake I sold you in the first place? Most snakes(even ball pythons) can look pretty different after 8 months of growth. What kind of care has the snake received? Does it have mites, respiratory infection, blisters, etc.? Has it been exposed to something that I don't want coming into my collection if I take the snake back? How exactly am I too be sure it is the snake I sold you in the first place(yes, I know I'm repeating myself)?

And yes, I WILL fix a mistake I made. Call me up within a few days of the sale and I can happily replace or refund the animal with the proper sex. Heck, like I said, 8 days or 8 weeks and I'll likely be happy to do something about fixing what I did wrong(the snake shouldn't have changed or grown so much in that time frame that I wouldn't recognise it). But call me up 8 months later when I have no way of verifying it was the snake I even sold you in the first place(chances are also pretty good I won't have pics on file or feed charts or anything like that anymore since the sale was concluded 8 MONTHS ago). Plus, if you told me when you got the snakes that you were happy with them and they arrived okay, it's kind of hard to wonder why all of a sudden 8 months later you're wanting a refund/replacement plus a higher value animal and money for feeding expenses, and it would be VERY hard for me to tell you anything but where to take it.

Like I said, sorry you won't do business with me because I would refuse to take it up the a$$ because you decided 8 months later to verify the sex on snakes I sold you. If you could prove to me those were the snakes I sold you, I'd admit to it, and MAYBE(big maybe)even refund your purchase price(though I'm not giving you $500 because that is the "current" value, you didn't pay for a sub-adult, you paid for a hatchling and that is what you'd get refunded for, if at all).

It's hard to make the customer happy further down the line if they had a problem they never bothered to tell you about.

 

[The BoidSmith]

John,

Rob makes a good point. If you go an buy an appliance from a store you have either the store's return policy or the manufacturer's warranty for faulty parts. But both have a certain time frame for expiration.

Now, in this case you were lucky enough because of two things. First you found an honest individual. Second, he sexed the snake in your presence so the mistake was made by him right there. That's probably why he felt a little more obligated with you. If 8 months had gone by and you had never personally checked the snake's sex yourself and he hadn't done it himself to start with the outcome might have been different.

Regards.

 

[evansnakes]

As somebody who has been on both ends of this issue I just want to say a couple things.

I agree that the seller has responsibilty to sell a correctly sexed animal. But please keep in mind, mistakes get made, we have all made mistakes and some snakes are much trickier to sex than others. As a seller, I would compensate the buyer in some way, depending both on what they wanted and on what seems fair to both of us.

On the other side, when I buy snakes at shows or have them shipped to me, the first thing that I do is check the sex. If it is important to you which sex you are getting how could you not want to verify that immediately? Now, when as a buyer comes back to me with an incorrectly sexed animal 8 months later, I feel like I am much less obligated to do as much for them There is just no real excuse for waiting 8 months to find that out. What if it is a generic looking animal and you can't even be sure if it is the same one that they bought? Then what do you do?

I now guarantee my sexing (as I always have) but have stipulated that sex needs to be verified by the buyer ASAP. After months go by I will not be nearly as helpful as I would have been after the sale or shortly thereafter and I think that is only fair. As a buyer you must assume some responsibility for your failure to act sooner.

In this case, if I believed that there was honesty on the buyers end, I would offer to buy back the male at the female price charged (on the ball) or exchange the male with a female that I had here. It may not be the same size or age, that is just part of a settlement that you have to come to.

If you ever felt that a seller was intentionally selling incorrectly sexed animals for increased profits, it is lawyer/lawsuit time.

Just my thoughts. Evan Stahl