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You Decide

David Scarboro

David Scarboro

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The enclosed picture is just one of a batch of snakes that I traded for recently. I started a thread about my dissatisfaction with the trade and a couple of people jumped out to tell me about their satisfaction with the gentleman that I traded with. I have sent this pic to several persons and they have all gave me the same response. I will let you decide. I say Eastern Milk, and the person who sent this to me says Iowa locale Red Milk. There are a number of disputes involved in this trade, and maybe it is me who is wrong. You tell me.
Thanks for looking
David Scarboro Jr.
Dahlonega, Ga.
 

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That looks like a eastern milk to me, most of the red milk snakes I have seen or been in contact with were alot brighter. Maybe the snake is in shed? If not, it's most likely a eastern milk snake, what does it's belly look like?
Michael Fedzen

My Email

Michael's Place
 
I don't remember if the red milk snake has a checkerboard-pattern on it's belly, but the eastern milk snake does. That snake overall just looks like a eastern, if the pic shows up, I included a pic of a red milk snake.
Michael Fedzen

My Email

msg0515232421167.jpg
 
Here is some info

I was curious myself so i tried doing a little research. Take a look at this web site and you can see that Eastern milks occur in Iowa and look like the one you pictured, however they have some locale specific pics that show some very different looking snakes. Take a look at this------> http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/reptiles/snakes/eastern_m
 
Yes, I would agree that it looks like an eastern. That was a great link that Allen provided. However, it also says "Status

PROTECTED. It is illegal to kill or collect this species by law in Iowa. Milk snakes are common, but since they are very secretive, they are seldom seen"

That would raise some eyebrows with me if I was doing a trade for them.

Anyone know if there are scale counts he can do?
 
Any North American milksnake experts besides me?LOL

Hey,I have been dealing in NA milks for over 15 years and I didnt question the validity of the snake when I got him from Shannon Brown(West coast hondurans).Most newbies look for either body or head color but this snake is easily ID'd as a red due to band depth,head shape and collar.I have had reds with LESS red as well,and Michael PLEASE dont help,lol.I know you dont even know how to find one never mind ID it,lol.Lastly,take a look in Markel's milksnake book under syspila.....case closed,Jeff
 
Caes Closed?

Jeff I have spoken to some experts in the field, and you are wrong. "You state that you have seen reds with less red than that". There is no red on the snake. Face it, you took me, and then "promised to make it right" I haven't heard from you since. Tonight, I will post the other questionable animals from our trade, and your emails representing them.
David Scarboro Jr. :(
 
WELL

JEFF.S.n.american snake expert,,,,,,,,your WRONG that is an eastern milk and whats really sad is your arrogance ,,markels book,HA!collar,headshape,band widths,HA,!,that is not a red,get a grip! get ANYONE. and i mean anyone, incl.,s.brown to say thats a red and not an eastern,,,,,pleeeeeeeeze,,,thats really sad:( bioligist,scientist,snake expert for 15yrs, if all that is true you should be ashamed for trying to pass this eastern milk off as a red,,,,,,,,thomas davis:eek:
 
Its colors look like a typical adult Eastern, but I wouldn't go by just that alone. You have a head shot of the snake?

Do the two intergrade at all?
 
Yeah they do intergrade, but intergraded specimens don't look anything like this eastern. ................................... Look below, it is clearly an eastern.
Michael

Regular adult eastern
eastern_milksnake_S.jpg


Regular adult red milk snake
redmilksnake_2_S.jpg


Intergrade between the red milk snake and the eastern milk
milksnake_inter_S.jpg
 
Thanks, and do have to agree, it does look like a typical adult eastern. I am not too familiar with the color variation in Reds, and thats why I asked.

Thanks again,
Chad Bachman
 
Thanks so much everyone! I also would like to thank the people that I e-mailed the pic to who e-mailed me back! I feel somewhat vindicated. I have sent the pic to S.Brown, but he has not replied yet. This whole trade was problematic, but maybe it can be worked out. I hope so. I just don't like to be p****d on and told it's raining!
David Scarboro Jr.
Dahlonega, Ga.
 
Everyone attempting to ID the snake as an eastern,WHO has asked to see the head??

COLOR means nothing,even if its in the name,lol.The pic of the snake in question is also on kingsnake photo gallery under my name.CHeck out the collar and the head shape,definately RED.All the red milks in the photos....NONE of them are from IA locales right?MOST are immature(holding red)and spectacular animals.....This was not even the darkest one I got from Shannon,Dwight Good got a darker female and he never questioned the validity of the ssp..Anyone take a look at the Markel book yet? Someone has to have it besides me,validate this for me.And as far as scale counts go,I dont doubt it to be found NEAR an intergrade area(as I have found its county locale--Madison).If you also read Williams or Markel you will note the overlap in scale counts with these ssp..I have never burned anyone and have reached agreement in principal with Dave on this.I am sending him a MORE RED RED milk,lol,maybe he will think this one a sinaloan or something.For those of you trying to ID easterns,check out my pics as well and you can see definative head size/shape differences.Looks like we all have seen too many mexican milk ssp lately huh?Jeff
 
well schofield,selfproclaimed,bioligist,scientist

hate to say this again,,,but your wrong !!! jeff.s that is an eastern milk,ive seen the head,,its an eastern milk,your wrong, i have been in to herps 20+yrs also and have had both reds and easterns i currently have allot of easterns NOW, i do know the difference,lol,all ya want the bottom line is you are wrong get anyone to agree w/you that is a red or even an intergrade for that mattter ,anyone jeff,,,s.brown,d.good,ANYONE! ,,, IMHO ya tried passing an eastern off as red which is just plain ole sad:( ,but from what ive read your sendin him replacement thats RED as ya say(should been sent the 1st time!)but at least your sendin it now!, but really now is the oh you'll prolly say its a sinaloan,lol,,is that really neccesary? imho it just shows your arrogance :(,,ya say your making it right we'll see i hope so peace,,,,,,thomas davis :eek:
 
syspila vs triangulum

i recognize that snake (or at least) the genes that went in to it, i should as i bred the snake or its parents.

as jeff stated, it was honestly represented. it is an animal descended from snakes found near the northwestern limit of syspila territory. there likely is some eastern influence in the Madison Co. IA milksnake population, but most people familiar with milks would agree that they are more syspila than eastern.

there is a good deal more variation in pattern and color both within and between populations of milks than can be seen with a few hours of surfing the web looking for pics, so be wary of broad statements about what is and isn't a syspila (or anything else for that matter).

s.
 
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