| Author | Subject: Is turnabout fair play here? |
| Rich Zuchowski | Posted At 16:47:51 04/11/2001
I have a question about what people may consider as valid postings here. Just recently I have had a situation where someone ordered some snakes and said they were sending out a check to hold the animals and would followup with the balance in a few weeks. Now several weeks have gone by, and no check. Neither have I gotten a response from an email sent to them inquiring about their intentions. Now this isn't the first time something like this has happened, and apparently what is happening, in some cases anyway, is that a person might have several deals on the line, negotiating with several people about their animals for sale. Rather than lose out if some first choices fall through, this person might tell each seller that they definitely want the animals and a check is in the mail for it. This way they can continue with the negotiations, and if whichever deal they most prefer bears fruit, they just leave the other ones hanging. I've actually seen this happen quite a bit a shows as well. Invariably, someone will come to my tables, pick out a half dozen or so animals and ask me to hold them behind the tables while they walk around the rest of the show. What's happening is that they want to reserve those animals just in case they can't find anything better to spend their money on. If they DO find something they like better, you'll never see them again. I've gotten to where I refuse to do this unless the person at least puts a substantial deposit on the animals. But even then, I've had them sometimes come back and only want one out of the half dozen. Which is, coincidentally, the price of the deposit amount. I'll probably start requiring full payment in this sort of situation. Anyway, is this a common thing for people to do? I wouldn't dream of pulling something like this on someone myself, but maybe I'm just the minority on this. We're all seeing buyers posting complaints about dealers and sellers, but how about those dealers and sellers that have gotten bitten by this sort of thing from fickle buyers? Are we justified in posting THEIR names here to warn other dealers to take their promises with a BIG grain of salt? Rich Z. |
| john a |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2490.html Posted At 18:21:40 04/11/2001 yes This is after all,a board of inquiry apple |
| Richard Hebron |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2491.html Posted At 18:32:01 04/11/2001 Actually Rich, seems to be the norm now days. Usually after I post herps for sale on the net I get a deluge of responses from people who say how much they want the herps. I try my best to keep it all fair and let people who responded first get their chance to send me money. So I hold them for a bit for the first responses to get money to me. Though, as of lately about 50% get money to me. Many say they will pay me immediately or in a week etc. Then e-mails with reasons why payment is late. Some even comeback 1-2 weeks later with a response like "I found them cheaper elsewhere". Problem is there are many other responses that come in after I put the hold on them for these 50% that do not pay me. This means constant reposting of these same herps in the various classifieds online. Starts looking like they can not be sold or something is wrong with them but in actuality it is just poor judgement on my part trying to be fair with strangers. One example was my recent selling off of my Brazilian Rainbow boa collection. First posting I had over 50 responses for them. Took about 5 more postings and 3 weeks to sell them off. Many that responded to my original postings ,when they were supposedly already spoken for, e-mailed me with such comments as "you should have sold them to me when you had the chance" and some others not as nice. I am currently selling off all our herps here and are down to 12 bullsnakes but in these postings I included first come first serve means "first pay first serve". I will no longer hold any herps considering them still available until money shows. Actually dealing with issues like this is one of the reasons I have been selling down our collection for the past 3 years. Started with over 400 herps. Now 12. Kinda took the fun out of it all. |
| Scott Williams |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2495.html Posted At 19:20:59 04/11/2001 I've run into the same problem as you on holding them until the money gets here.I try to have the buyer set-up a pay pal account and work from there. I know I lose a few dollars that way because of the fees when I recieve money but at least the deal is for sure and not as you state,someone shopping for a better deal. Even Wal-Mart makes you put down cash before you can use lay away. I say use the names if need be. Scott |
| John Staursky |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2496.html Posted At 19:26:18 04/11/2001 Rich, I know exactly how you feel! I had someone hold $1,200 worth of animals right before brumation in December (wich was why they were at the price they were) He sent me a $100 deposit on them. Well he kept promising and promising the rest of the money was on the way as I passed up dozens of potential other buyers and trade offers. Weeks went by and in the month of March he e-mailed me and said he couldn't buy them now and asked for his deposit back. Now at this time they are ready to come up and breed wich would have made them more valuable to me in the first place. Ethical question, should the customer get his deposit back after making me lose out on the dozens of other deals I could have made? Should the customer get his deposit back after I kept these animals from December to March on a small deposit, made several long distance phone calls and e-mails, cared for them and housed them? Some people would probably label me a "bad guy" if I said no, he shouldn't get his deposit back after this. But selling more than just a snake here and there gets to be demanding and I think your time is worth something. I think a reptile purchase should be the same as any other purchase, the customer sees a product they want, they pay for it, and it is theirs. I'm gonna go to Outback Steakhouse tonight and see if they will hold me a certain filet while I go shopping for a while then come back and eat it...LOL Just my opinion anyways. John Staursky |
| Rhonda |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2498.html Posted At 21:09:51 04/11/2001 I know several breeders who do not refund deposits. Of course, this is stated UP FRONT, and the buyer is fully aware. I personally have never sold any snakes, but I would imagine that it's a HUGE hassle for the breeders... |
| Chris Harney |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2499.html Posted At 21:33:54 04/11/2001 I'm usually a buyer and very infrequently a seller. But even as an infrequent seller, I'd like to know who has a tendency to pull this kind of thing. I don't think someone should be able to get their deposit back--doesn't matter if you've held the animal(s) for 10 minutes or 10 weeks. I mean, what is a "deposit" supposed to be? If they can get their money back if they change their mind, then that "deposit" didn't mean anything at all. I try to be very clear as to exactly when I'm sending my payment. I would think it would help if any seller could warn the buyer with an e-mail, or written invoice or something--just saying it on the phone wouldn't be enough--but tell them up front, "payment is to be made within 5 days, or the animal will be relisted for sale and negative feedback will be left on the Board of Inquiry Forum. Unless other arrangements are made in advancef, deposits are non-refundable and will only hold the animal(s) for 30 days (or whatever)". Kind of like eBay does it. Their feedback system is very effective. My own "rotten buyer" story involves a person in Georgia who commited to buy 9 of my very red bearded dragons, then said he had a car accident and hadn't been able to send the check for a week or so. He finally sent it, but it arrived by Express Mail on the same day we had arranged for me to ship the animals to him. I'm a very small-time breeder, and 4-month-old bearded dragons are my "babies". Although I asked him to please let me know when they arrived safely, he didn't pick them up until about 6 hours after they had arrived, and never contacted me at all. I would never sell to him again. My opinions are mainly from the standpoint of a buyer. I think a lot of buyers are unreasonable. |
| Mark Kennedy |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2501.html Posted At 22:03:20 04/11/2001 Lets face it, people change their minds all the time, and things come up in their lives that are beyond their control. The majority of excuses might just be baloney, but none the less we are forced to accept it. I don't think a person should be labeled a bad guy just because he or she changed their minds. |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2502.html Posted At 23:07:57 04/11/2001 Mark Kennedy - Sure I agree anyone can change their mind, and that is their right. Where I have a problem is when they do not even bother to send a *free* email to let you know that they are not going to buy those animals you are holding for them. Just a bit of common courtesy would be nice. Now how would those same buyers feel if the shoe was on the other foot and I told them that "sure I'll hold those animals for you", and then sold them the next day to someone else? It's basically the same thing. A committment should be two ways. Oh and John, no I would not refund the deposit. The deposit is a good faith retainer for the animals. It is meant as security on the sellers part that the buyer is acting in good faith. Once the buyer breaches the contract, whether explicitly stated or implied, he/she should understand the consequences and be prepared to lose the deposit. Now with that in mind, I have had my share of sob stories and have always returned the deposit when asked without trying to verify the 'facts' given me. And believe me I have heard some doozies! But one of these days I am going to get some nose hardener and stick to my guns. |
| Tony Bedell |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2509.html Posted At 01:54:25 04/12/2001 I can tell you one horror story after another. I breed Bearded Dragon's, and Leopard Gecko's. I will often post animal's for sale on Yahoo, or what ever. I recently put a sub-adult red phase female dragon on Herp-auction, just to see what my result's might be, and bidding was crazy, I got 43 bid's in one day, so when the auction finally closed and I responded to the winning bidder, he informed me that he miss read the ad, and needed to think about buying it. I was shocked, so I wrote to the next few people who submitted bid's and told them the situation, and that they could get it for their bid they placed, and it was 1 no answer after another. It really upset me, finally I after a week of waiting the first bidder told me that he wanted her, he just had to let his iguana go, because he needed the room. He let his Iguana go outside, and he lives in Michigan. I was floored, so I sent him a very nasty E-mail, and told him that I would never sell anything to a idiot like him. Have you guy's ever had an experience like that? |
| Steve Barry |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2515.html Posted At 04:35:27 04/12/2001 As a customer I believe I have as much responsibility as the dealer in making sure a transaction goes smoothly. From what I've been reading and from what I see in day to day business dealings customers have taken "the customer is always right' to new levels of insanity. The word integrity will be stricken from the dictionary in a few short years because it seems people with integrity are becoming a thing of the past. Handshake deals HAHA!! Contracts, ain't worth the paper they're printed on. I say if you have a deposit on an existing animal keep the deposit. Seems to me the good percentage of these stories are just another version of the old soft shoe. |
| Dennis Gulla |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2516.html Posted At 07:29:38 04/12/2001 I also buy more frequently then I sell. However, I have experienced the same thing. I have posted animals for sale on Herp Auction only to have the winning bidder tell me the check is in the mail. A week goes by and still no check. Then you have to pay long distance bills to pay for the constant phone calls trying to find out what the status is. What I do now is give the first person that inquired 5 days to get you payment. At the same time I tell the next two people that inquired that if I don't receive payment from the first inquiry within those five days the animal is theirs. If I have to deduct the amount of them overnighting thier payment from the sale price of the animal, I'll do that as well. |
| Raven Johnson |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2521.html Posted At 09:25:21 04/12/2001 I've only sold one litter thus far and those were to a pet store, so I haven't had the joy of experiences that the rest of you have had. :-) From a buyer's perspective, however, I would not feel it unreasonable to require a non-refundable deposit. For myself, whether it's from shows or individual breeders or even pet stores, I don't request anyone hold an animal without a deposit and the full intention of fulfilling my obligation to purchase said animal. Perhaps I am odd, it wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of it. While I understand that there are occassional extenuating circumstances beyond a person's control, they still have an obligation to the seller who has held and cared for an animal until their payment is received. Perhaps a written contract for in person buyers (or even internet buyers) would be a good game plan. At the very least, a statement on the website or table that plainly states that no animal will be considered held until payment or deposit is received and deposits are X% and non-refunable. It won't weed out all the problem buyers but perhaps it will discourage a few. Raven J. |
| Robert Hill |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2522.html Posted At 09:29:15 04/12/2001 I have dealt with this situation before several times(and I am currently dealing with a buyer like this right now who has thousands of dollars on hold with LOTS of people, including me). I think it is perfectly fine to put names of buyers to beware of on here. Never getting paid what is owed to you from a sale is just as bad as never recieving the animals/service that you paid for. What most buyers don't seem to realize is that the animals you are holding for them, cost the seller money. Feeders are not free, cage space is always needed, and you are suffering a large opportunity cost with all of the offers that you receive while the animal(s) is on hold. Not to mention(like has already been stated)that taking an animal off sale, and then having to repost it again because the buyer backed out(for whatever reason)makes you and the animal look bad. Wouldn't YOU begin to question why an animal is posted for sale, then sold, then for sale again several times? Any buyer would, and that in turn, makes for a harder sale. I guess the message is: If you tell someone you are interested in a reptile and ask him/her to hold it for you(especially when a deposit is involved), you are entering into a contract. And as in all contracts, both sides are expected to hold up to their end. So in other words: DON'T ASK ANYONE TO HOLD AN ANIMAL YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF PAYING THE WHOLE AMOUNT ON RIGHT THEN AND THERE. IF YOU MAKE A DEPOSIT, YOU SHOULD NOT EXPECT IT BACK IF YOU CHOOSE TO BUY FROM SOMEONE ELSE OR NOT TO BUY. |
| Ciro |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2528.html Posted At 11:43:44 04/12/2001 Once I got email addys mixed up and couldn't follow thru on purchasing a female vorax (which I needed)...The guy never emailed me, but we have talked since (after he emailed me a while later) and I hope he knows that I didn't back out intentionally...I would never do that...I would not expect something like that to get posted, it isn't indicative of how I act. However, if he emailed me and I ignored him, then , yes it should get posted...I wish herpauction had a blackball list, I stopped using it because people would win and never follow thru... By they way...I do not believe that you are allowed to keep deposits based on oral agreements...however, if you draw up a contract and specifically state that in consideration of a deposit you are going to hold an animal and that the deposit is non refundable if the animal is not picked up by a certain date, you have a binding contract and get to keep the deposit if the guy backs out... THIS IS IN NO WAY LEGAL ADVICE! CHECK WITH YOUR PARTICULAR JURISDICTION FOR MORE ACCURATE LAW! |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2581.html Posted At 23:56:49 04/13/2001 I say First come first serve. If you want it put a non refundable deposit down of say from 10-25%. If they're really serious it will be no problem. I am not a dealer I usually buy or trade for certain boas I am looking for. I have on occassion "TRIED" to sell at herpauction and had several "WINNERS" that never followed through. I have one now, kimmy2669, ring a bell with anyone else? When I put something up for sale it is because I want or need something more and I try to sell it as quick as possible so I can get what is advertised. Luckily I have a couple dealers I work with that gives me a break. He has a 4ft female Hypo on hold for me. I have $400 of the $550 for it, but kimmy didn't follow through on buying my '99 1.0 White from Jeffe Ronne, so now I have to repost him again. I have offered him up as trade, but he needs the cash, very understandable. I informed him of this and he said it's no problem because I have never let him down nor he me. His name is Webb Tilton in case you're wondering. He's honest and a nice guy all around. We have future dealings on the table also. Thanks, Ernie |
| Chris Summers |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2604.html Posted At 19:07:08 04/14/2001 My motto is MONEY TALKS & BULLSH*T WALKS. |
| Heather Scott |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2927.html Posted At 06:49:06 04/26/2001 In some cases turnabout would be fair play, but....... You have to figure the buyer is the only one who will lose money if a deal goes bad. The seller will definately be inconvenienced, but normally will not lose any money. How many breeders/brokers will send their animals first for the buyers inspection and wait to get paid later? NONE!!!! Yet, the seller expects the buyer to pay by credit card, money order, check, etc... first. The seller will have his cash long before the buyer will have their animal. Now at shows this isn't the case. You can see and touch the animal you're buying. In a case where someone wants a seller to hold a snake at a reptile show there should be a non-refundable deposit(a 30% deposit per animal at shows is reasonable). There should also be a non-refundable deposit on mail order snakes as well. A deposit of 15% on expensive snakes and a set minimum on less expensive snakes. This should also be stated in writing before any monies change hands so the buyer is aware of it. In the long run I'm sure there aren't many "sellers" who get ripped off by the general public. It's the "buyers" who take the real risk. Just my thoughts. Heather Scott |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: Is turnabout fair play here?
2928.html Posted At 07:45:51 04/26/2001 Heather - This isn't about money. It's about ethics. I do not believe it is at all unreasonable to expect a buyer to live up to their word when they make a committment to buy something. And even then, it is fully understandable that circumstances may arise suddenly that will cause that disposable income to no longer be available. But I can see NO excuse for a buyer to not bother to let the seller know that the check or money order they said was on the way, will not be coming after all. That's just downright rude, if you ask me. |