| Author | Subject: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF! |
| JERRY TRESSER | Posted At 14:08:26 04/19/2001
I came accross this sight and thought it was wonderful. I also enjoy reading all the inquiries about different difficulties that people have encountered in this unusual trade. Some friendly advise. Whenever purchasing before sending monies, get a policy letter from the seller. Have him spell out exactly what he will assume liability for and what he will not assume liability for. Request a First right of refusal, which basically means that you the buyer have 24 hours to return the animal, shipped back at your expense because its not what you assumed it would be. This is not an unreasonable request considering that you are buying sight unseen and working on the good faith of the seller. Wherever possible pay by credit card or depending on whom you are dealing with,an open account would be ideal not always possible, but consider limiting your exposure to some of these crooks out their who demand cash or money orders,etc. We have found that if you have a Policy that you can refer to both the buyer and seller are more comfortable with some written criteria that word of mouth which is only worth about .05 if a problem arises. The buyer has to assume that the eventual outcome of its purchase will be death. As crude as it sounds, Reptiles and Amphibians can look great, but many times they go down hill for whatever reason, and eventually succumb. This can happen a month later 5 months later,etc.The seller cannot assume anything other than its physical appearance of the animal being in good health. The exception of course would be a vets report prior to the sale. But the seller should not be responsible beyond the agreed policy of the sale. Nothing is written in stone, but we deal in the higher end of Geckos, and we strongly believe in providing our terms so the buyer understands fully well what their getting into. This is good for both parties concerned and nothing can be misconstrued because you can always refer to the written policy. Hope this helps |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
2795.html Posted At 03:17:48 04/21/2001 I agree to a point. This hobby is growing quickly and people that are not properly educated about reptiles. They are getting into this hobby for several reasons, to get a pet, as a hobby, extra cash and as a business. My point is that there are breeder/dealers that will sell anyone a reptile with a fatal disease, weather they do it intentionally or not and it may take a few months to discover that it is sick. I beleive if you get it a necropsy and can prove it came with this fatal disease that the breeder/dealer should make some sort of a mends. I also beleive as you stated that everyone that is buying whatever should get in writing the sellers intent and guarantees and should pay by credit card or personal check. Granted it takes $25-$30 + to cancel a check, but you won't get screwed out of your money. I don't beleive in sending money orders or cash as initial payment before seeing what you are buying. You may as well toss your money to the wind if you do this. If the person won't accept a credit card or personal check then move on. Eventually you'll find something comparable or better, possibly from a well known honest breeder/dealer. I know this may be a touchy subject and it may open people up to faulse claims, but it is hard to deny a necropsy. I take all my boas to a vet shortly after recieving them and I let the seller know if there are any problems with feeding or appearance ASAP and keep them informed through out until it proves to be healthy and feeding as most breeder/dealers promise. It is hard to tell if a reptile is feeding too soon after shipping as it will most likely arrive stressed and feeding it too soon will further stress it and possibly cause a regurge, dehydration and so on. If a breeder/dealer is honest they will work with you until you are satisfied it is healthy and feeding as long as it is in a timely manner. 24 hours is not enough time to know if it is healthy and feeding. 1-2 weeks is. I'm not saying to take someones word instantly, but if they are like me and are serious about the care and health of their new animal they will seek out a competent Vet before the purchase and inform the B/D that they intend to have a Vet check it out before the sale is complete. If I buy a car I have checked by a competent mechanic, if I get a dog I also have a Vet check it for any health problems. I don't think anyone should sell any thing with a just a 24 hour guarantee. I think the consumer law is 3 days to return something for no reason what so ever. I don't know if this includes animals or reptiles, but it should. If a B/D truely believes the reptile is healthy he will allow more time. Thank you for your time. Ernie |
| Robert Hill |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
2858.html Posted At 09:09:34 04/23/2001 I agree with Jerry's and Ernie's posts to a certain degree. I agree that many people will sell to just about anyone whether they can properly care for the animals or not. But it is hard to screen potential buyers. Also, offering a one or two week guarantee is very risky in my opinion. No matter what your buyer says or tells you, as a breeder/dealer, you have no idea what kind of conditions your animals are going into. And ALOT can happen in those 7-14 days to cause that animal to get sick or die, no matter how healthy it was when sold. Keeping the animal too cold, too hot, or whatever can cause alot of problems(as we all know very well). Also, who is to say that your animal was even fed properly for that time period? I know with most snakes this is not as much of a problem, but with lizards, it is usually a big deal. And since the majority of the animals I sell are bred in my own home, I know that they are not carrying any diseases that will cause a perfectly healthy animal to die within a few days of reaching a new home. So too me, a guarantee of 24-48 hours is sufficient(but I will almost always make exceptions). But I also state, that if the animal is unhealthy or dead when they receive it, I will happily replace the animal or give them a refund if they can supply me with the body. I know this is gruesome to some people, but there are too many instances of people saying that their animal arrived dead when in fact, it arrived in perfect condition and the buyer is just trying to scam somebody. Oh well, just my opinion and how I run things. Feel free to tell me if you see any problems. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
2862.html Posted At 10:34:49 04/23/2001 I agree 2 weeks is a long time to guarantee an animal. Unless you personally know the person(s) you are dealing with and are familiar with how the animal is being kept. But every case is different. When dealing over the internet I think the buyer must notify the seller immediately of a problem and then decide whether they (the buyer) wants to keep the animal or not. And yes if an animal arrives dead the buyer should provide some sort of proof to the seller. Either return the animal (repackaged to hold in the stink), or if the seller agrees, place the dead animal on the front page of that day's newspaper and take a picture. If the seller agrees to keep the animal they recieve that's the same as going to the pet store and picking it out. |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
2885.html Posted At 03:28:18 04/24/2001 I'm not saying to extend a two week time period from the start. What I am saying is as a buyer too, is this, when I get a boa I can't feed it the same day or for 2-3 days after I receive it, some times, depending on size and age I can feed it a small prey item with in 2-3 days of receiving it. Most breeder/dealers guarantee live healthy and feeding, if feeding isn't added I usually assume it because healthy to me means eating. What I'm saying is that with some fatal diseases, like say IBD, you can't tell right off and it may take some time to present itself, but some dealers are selling these animals with very slight symptoms that isn't noticed at first. Some may know they are selling sick snakes, others may not, but if it can be proven with out a doubt that it arrived with it, then it should be replaced by the dealer because they sold a infected animal, in effect being a defective product. Sometimes symptoms won't appear for several months or even years, in this situation, depending on the circumstances, that should be at the discretion of the dealer and they shouldn't be held accountable. What I'm saying is I think this terrible disease will be presenting itself more in the future due to unscroupulous dealers, lack of knowledge or education and simply by dealers honestly not knowing an animal is infected. Hopefully a cure will be found in the near future, but until then I will continue to ask dealers to bear with me until I can get my Vet to give the boa a check up so I can have an expert opinion just as if I was buying a car because seriously some boas can be pricy and if I spend $600-$700+ for a boa it is a fairly serious investment even if I am only buying it as a pet. Thanks for your time. Ernie |
| Brian Conley |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
2895.html Posted At 10:42:24 04/24/2001 Ernie, the problem is that (as far as I know) the only way to positively diagnose IBD is with necropsy. And the symptoms (stargazing, anorexia, etc) can be caused by other problems ranging from a simple bacterial infection to head tramua, even a simple failure to thrive situation. If you're in the market for snakes costing more than $500 why not spend a little more time researching the animal you're about to purchase. What I mean is, go see the thing before you shell out that kind of cash. I would think that most dealers of animals in that price range would be doing shows all around the country, so go to a show and have them bring the animal there for your inspection. Either that or buy from a breeder in your area. You're right about the disease though. It is terrible and frightening. Probably the worst thing about it is the fact that it's a viral infection. Therefore, there is no cure, only prevention. And an animal can be a carrier for years and years and never become sick itself. In fact, a person could have an animal in their collection that is doing great and every time they bring in a new animal, their animal infects the new one. Then that person thinks they are getting infected snakes, when in fact they aren't; the snakes are getting infected after arrival. We always talk about quarentine of new animals, and that can help. But the truth is, one could quarentine animals for years and the instant you put them together for breeding you open the animals up for infection. Perhaps someone can help me with this question: Has the infection vector for IBD been established yet? Can this thing go airborne or do we think it still requires direct contact? Ernie in closing I just don't think it fair to ask someone who you've never meet personally to guarantee an animal indefinately until you're sure you're happy with it. How long does that take? 2hrs, 2days, 2 weeks, 2months? If you accept the shipment and there are problems notify the sender immediately and either return the animals or get something worked out right then, not days or weeks or months later. It's the cost of doing business in animals ovet the net, phone, etc. Brian |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
2901.html Posted At 15:14:35 04/24/2001 In reading Brian's latest posting, it sure sent a twinge of fear through me. Imagine IBD being an airborne virus. Then imagine having YOUR animals at a herp show. What might you be taking back home with you that you didn't have before?? It's not enough that you might not allow people to handle your animals. Definitely a scary thought. |
| JERRY TRESSER |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
3125.html Posted At 08:44:50 05/04/2001 Whatever agreement is made whether 24 hours or 2 weeks should be in writing including the ability of the animal to eat. I received a Angulifer gecko from Rare Earth in Wa. The animals arrived in excellent condition. Via express mail. This was a month ago, and as of this writing he she has never eaten. So what is one to do when you buy and the animal for whatever reason decides to go on a permenant diet that eventually leads to death. These things become irreversible. The bottom line is the buyer should be prepared that the risk factor has to be the # one priority in any animal purchase. I hope some of these ideas that I posted will provide some groundwork when purchasing animals. Winning is not done by chance but by preperation. Know what your getting into! |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
3130.html Posted At 15:06:25 05/04/2001 I think we need a look at this from a different perspective. A lot of us that have been in this for a long time did so without any guarantees whatsoever. Animals were obtained however you could find them, and in many cases you felt just darned lucky to even find what you were looking for. We understood that we were dealing with live animals, and by the very nature of the beast, everything was pretty much unpredictable. Maybe it was partially from this type of challenge that some people even attempted captive breeding of reptiles at all. Reptiles are NOT toaster ovens that can be guaranteed to work for 1 year. With a toaster oven, you just plug it into the wall and it gets a standard voltage with a standard amount of current available for it to do it's job. As long as you don't try to make gasoline flavored hamburgers, you should generally be OK. But the manufacturer is not going to guarantee that you will get perfect results no matter what you do. If you put a burger on at 350 degrees and then go talk on the phone for two hours, results will probably not be what you had hoped for. Dealing with live animals is much worse that my rather poor analogy above. The person receiving the animal can do a whole lot of things wrong that the seller has no control over. The animal itself has a brain and minimal personality and can decide to do things that might be contrary to it's own survival. Again, beyond the control of the seller. Tumors can develop, organs can fail, and pathogens can come seemingly out of nowhere. And the seller might be asked to guarantee AGAINST all of these things? I kid you not, one time at a show I had someone that picked out a few baby corn snakes and asked me if I would GUARANTEE that they would grow up and produce viable offspring. He didn't seem to mind my laughing too much and bought them anyway..... It seems to me that people are trying to take the risk out of their own endeavors to make money off of the animals they are buying. Let's face it, most people buying pairs of animals these days have it in mind to breed them to make money off of them. I am amazed at the number of people that truly believe that they can buy a single pair of animals and it is some iron-clad guarantee somewhere engraved in stone that they will be successful raising them up, breeding them, getting offspring, and the world will be beating down their door to buy those babies from them (which, of course, will all be healthy, feeding and spectacular looking with a satisfactory sex ratio). Sorry, but if just doesn't happen that way. Anyone going into this thinking this is like putting money in the bank with a guaranteed return on the investment should turn their attentions elsewhere. Oh well, I've got a lot more to say on this, but it's time to go wrestle with the snakes. This isn't meant to slam anyone, but to just pull some expectations down to earth where they belong. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
3139.html Posted At 20:06:43 05/04/2001 WELL SAID!!!!! |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
3153.html Posted At 03:28:46 05/05/2001 I guess I wasn't too clear about what I was saying. I don't mean to guarantee them indefinatly or for longer periods than required. I think you should take some things into consideration, like are you selling to someone that knows what they're doing ie, another breeder/dealer or are you selling to a beginner. Do they know how to care, house or keep what they're buying? I think the seller should take some responsiblity and ask some questions as to what this person knows or doesn't know and offer advice before the sell, even if the advice is I don't think a snake is right for you. Good dog and cat breeders do. I have seen them decline to sell an animal to the wrong person. Of course you can only suggest. If they really want it they will get it somewhere and you can always tell them that if they have their mind set on getting it you will provide it to them with some knowledge or suggest a book for them, don't just sell the animal to anyone, because honestly you are opening yourself up to negative posts and in general a pain in the a$$. That is why you put this site up, so people can inform themselves. Take responsiblity for their actions and inform others of their experiences. We all say there are people that will sell anything to any body. I think if you or we are going to represent this hobby to beginners we should do it responsibly. I am not a breeder/dealer I do not know if I will become one, I will have to wait to see how things pan out. I have some plans, but if Veronica doesn't like Archie I don't think he'll be getting any. I have 11 boas right now and plans to buy a couple more. I only got them to provide myself with the morphs that I can't afford to pay $10,000 for. Not to sell or make a living off of and if they don't breed I have the rest of my life, or their life to try. If they do breed I have some to trade for Harley parts to some of my friends or sell to buy Harley parts to build me another ride. I like boas and Harleys, plain and simple, oh and wimmin, got to love wimmin, just can't help it (LOL). They're not stock to me they're my pets. All I was saying is if you sell to someone that knows what they're doing at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Let them call you and let you know how things are going. If the boa is going to eat it will with in 3-4 days after it arrives. if you try any sooner you're asking for trouble like regurges, dehydration or even further stressing it more than shipping did. If it doesn't eat, let them send it back or figure out between you on a case to case deal how you will proceed. All breeder/dealers say they guarantee live/healthy arrival, sometimes they even clarify feeding. Healthy as I said before means it's feeding to me. I understand you may get one that has just decided to off his self and if it could get out to the road it would throw itself in front of a bus. All I was saying is take it case by case. If it doesn't seem right, then it probably isn't. I mean that in both contexts (I think I spelled that right). My brain is starting to rust. I blame my kids (2 boys and they're teenagers, 16, 17) and not enough time in the wind. One last thought about what was said above about you can't control the environment the animal is going into when you sell it. I think we can to a point by educating, asking questions and taking responsiblity for the things we can control. If we can't then who can? Are you or we just going to sell to anyone that gives you the cash? If so then we are no better than the people we complain about screwing us and in the end we become the ones that discredit and ruin this hobby. I am not saying to not sell to any beginner, I am saying to converse, offer advise. Make sure they know what they need to provide proper care and what can be expected. You don't have to make it seem like the end of the world, just educate and prepare them for possiblities. Nuff said. Ernie (bert died) |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
3162.html Posted At 10:37:16 05/05/2001 Ernie- this wasn't intended as a slam against you and your ideas. They are basically sound, but you need to step into the shoes of someone selling a couple of thousand animals a year before you decide whether the way they are doing it is right or wrong. For starters, try attending a major herp show, perhaps something like Daytona Beach, and watch the people behind the tables trying to respond to people standing four deep in front of the table, ALL of them trying to make a purchase and get on with seeing the rest of the show. There is no way possible to interrogate all of them to make sure they know what they are getting in to. And yes, I have turned away customers. Last year I sold some problem feeders at a few shows to take the work load off of my wife and I. They were all plainly marked as such and in a separate area of the table. The basket had a large sign on it. The snakes themselves were unlabeled as to cultivar and sex, but for $10, the opportunity was there to get amelanistic lavenders, butters, hypo lavenders, etc., etc. Invariably I would get people that would ONLY see the low price and completely ignore the sign. So EVERYONE that came to us with a problem feeder cup in their hand we had to ask if they read the sign. After doing this innumerable times, I have to admit that towards the last few hours of the last show we did this, I got tired of doing it and stopped. Now imagine doing this same thing to absolutely EVERYONE that wanted to buy a snake at a show. How is it even possible to do so? As it is I am hoarse for days after a weekend show from talking constantly. When I used to work with gray-banded king snakes, I would refuse to sell them to people whom acted like they didn't know a thing about them. But you know what? Invariably I would see that same person walking by my table later on in the day carrying a gray-banded king snake that they bought from someone else. So for my efforts I lost a sale and probably got that person irritated at me for refusing to sell to them. So I guess my position is that I expect people to be knowledgeable about what they are buying. Corn snakes and leopard geckos are remarkably easy to care for, and will generally thrive even in sub-optimal conditions. But with the number and quality of publications available, websites dedicated to the care of them, and various forums available for people to freely ask their questions, there is just no excuse for someone to be ignorant about what they are buying before they make their purchase. Yeah, I'm certain it is going to happen, but I am just not willing to dedicate the majority of my time and efforts to satisfy that small percentage of my potential business. |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: SAVING YOURSELF SOME GRIEF!
3174.html Posted At 01:01:16 05/06/2001 I didn't think you were slamming me, far from it. I know it was just an intellegent discussion, that's all. I only know redtails and everyday is a learning experience (oh I also know Burmese pythons, not everything, but enough). I read books and educated myself as to what I was getting into whaen I got my pythons and when I traded them for my boas. I can understand completly about what you're saying, you can't be a big brother to everyone and it's not really your job or mine. I guess I was just venting a bit because there are so many people that will sell you a animal (all species and types) and then it's like they disappear or they give you a guarantee with no intention of honoring it and you call them 3-4 days later and say hey it's not eating or there is a problem and they say oh well. I'm sure we've all had this happen. There are a lot of good people too. I don't know you and to be honest I have no idea what your snakes look like, but you seem fair and honest. There are not a lot of people that would take on a responsiblity like this site because lets face it a lot of people now days are almost too lazy to breathe. I guess I am setting my standards too high. Maybe I am putting to much on the shoulders of the dealers. An educated, responsible person would take it upon his self to research what their getting into, but even when this happens we still have the idiots that are only trying to make a buck and sell animals they know for a fact are sick or sometimes we all do get too busy and sometimes things fall through the cracks. I guess if you're an honest person or dealer and something comes up you deal with the best you can. From some of the post's I have read here it is obvious that there are still honest people that care for this hobby and other animals as well. I just wish we could castrate the ones that are out to scam you from the get go. Keep up the good work and good luck on getting your money back or some retribution. Nuff said. Ernie |