Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy

Author Subject: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
Jen Prejean @ HerpCrazy Reptiles Posted At 22:55:10 05/12/2001
I heard about Wesley through an aquantance that was a customer of mine. I was looking for rainbow boas and he said he knew a guy that had some.
I did a trade with Wesley, he lived near me so we met to do the trade.
I had a flawless Iryan Jaya Carpet Python yearling, he had a very young Brazilian Rainbow Boa.

The boa looked ok, so we did the trade. I had set up the snake's cage three days in advance, the temp. and humidity were perfect, I had kept this species before.

Less than 48 hours later the baby boa was dead. I called Wesley right away, he refused to talk to me (did I mention he was a teenager?) The only ones that would talk to us were his parents, who refused to accept that their son would trade a sick animal.

I took the snake to my vet( a well respected reptile specialist) for a necropsy, which showed that the snake died of an pre-existing neurological condition. This did not happen in my care.

With this evidence in hand, I tried to contact him again, this time I was able to talk to him directly.
He said that it wasn't his fault that the snake died, he wasn't giving my healthy carpet python back (not that I would want it after being in his care)and wasn't giving me the money for the snake or to cover my necropsy cost.
Needless to say, I was a little up-set. After this conversation, my number was blocked from his phone and when I tried to call from a friend's home, the number was changed.

I consider this an expensive lesson, and hope that noone else will get taken by him. I just hope that the snake that I put in his care was sold right away so that it didn't have time to meet the cruel fate of the little Brazillian Rainbow baby.

Here is Wesley's e-mail and web site.......

Speedysnake68@yahoo.com
www.southernsnakes.com

Regards,
Jen Prejean
"HerpCrazy Reptiles"



Corey Sawyer Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3300.html Posted At 12:36:37 05/13/2001

What he did was very wrong, but being a teenager had nothing to do with it. People of all ages will rip you off.

Corey
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3303.html Posted At 14:14:52 05/13/2001

Jen, I'm curios. Did you have some sort of agreement about the animals? It sounds like you did this trade in person correct? If so, then I don't see how he can be held responsible. You inspected the animal and agreed to the trade. Obviously, the snake didn't look or act sick or you wouldn't have done the trade. By the way your post reads, your experience with BRB's was greater than his from the start, and it sounds as if the animal he traded wasn't even his. Unless the two of you had some sort agreement the transaction ended at the point you agreed to the trade. You then owned a BRB and he a IJCP with all rights and priveledges thereunto appertaining. If you did have an agreement and he was hiding behind his parents then I'm on your side. But without some sort of guarantee up front, the instant you took posession of the BRB it became yours not his.
I have done dozens of trades at reptile shows and have occasionly had animals die. Once I had an animal die on the way home from a show, but all I could do was chalk it up to experience. I inspected the animal, agreed to the trade, and took it into my posession, everything from that point on is my fault. Perhaps, we should put "as is" stickers on all of our animals. Well no, that won't work either, people still blame the car dealer when their used car breaks down.
Jen, I'm sorry for your loss. It really sucks when pets die. But these wonderful creatures we deal with are alive, and the down side to that is, that they can die at any time for a multitude of reasons. The necropsy is only good for your personal piece of mind, without an agreement up front.
Better luck in the future, Brian
Jen @herpcrazy reptiles Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3313.html Posted At 20:19:49 05/13/2001

Thanks for the feed back guys.
I didn't mean to imply that just because he was a teenager, he ripped me off. I just wanted to put a reason for why he hid behind his parents.

He told me point blank that the boa was eating and was 100% healthy, I also guaranteed the carpet python.
If the tables had been turned I would have been absolutly apoligenic and would have compensated him. Especially with the evidence of a necropsy.

I stand behind my animals 200% and wish that others would too. I consider it a lesson learned.

Jen
"HerpCrazy Reptiles"
Vincent Rea Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3317.html Posted At 23:13:01 05/13/2001

Usually when trades are done there done in good faith. We haft to beleive that what we are being told is the truth. A snake can look fine but be on it's way out. I think your reasoning is crap Brian. I did a trade once and got a snake with RI, I couldn't tell but after having it one week it was showing. Two vet visits and almost $200 it turned out good for the snake. I got it from and was ignored as well by the famous Stephen Fragile who took a lot of people for what he could. My beleif is if you make a trade and you get a bad snake it should be delt with. I'm sorry to hear you got a bad deal. I hope you have better luck next time.
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3323.html Posted At 10:18:05 05/14/2001

Vincent, ok you said my reasoning was crap. Here's how it works. Let's examine your snake w/ a respiratory infection. You examined the snake before you bought it, it looked fine. In other words, showed no outward symptoms. A week later (5-7 days depending on def.) it showed signs of an infection. How can the seller be responsible for an animal that has been out of his care for a week. Snakes can develope a respiratory infection in 24 hrs. If you think I'm wrong put a blood phyton in an environment with less than 50% humidity and 80+ degree heat and come back in 24hrs. I'll agree that trades can be done in good faith, but only if the two parties know each other. With the trades done at shows I couldn't find those people if I had to. If you want a guarantee get one in writing up-front, otherwise don't complain later. Brian
Vincent Rea Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3328.html Posted At 12:32:15 05/14/2001

I can see your point as well but I still beleive that a trade is done in good faith. That Python I traded for did not get the RI from being in my possession. I'll bet you anything he didn't haft to put out any extra money for the Retic I traded him except for food. I will say this, If I ever made a trade and the animal I traded became sick or dead in a short amouny of time I would make good on it being it wasn't the new owner fault. I should have said I didn't agree with you instead of saying it was crap, Sorry Brian.
Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3329.html Posted At 12:57:53 05/14/2001

In response to Jen Prejean @ Herp Crazy Reptiles...

The information she is giving out is incorrect. I have proof backing up my claim that the BRB was in great health by several other well respected breeders in the Louisiana area. First of all, she came to me with the deal. I had only met her once (the day of the trade) and she came to me for the trade, I did not seek her out. Secondly she had possession of the BRB for over a week before she notified me of the death. I am very knowledgable regarding reptiles and have a very good reputation about them.

At the time of this incident, I was 15 years old. She had her boyfriend (in his mid 20's) calling me, talking in a threatening manner. She kept telling me that she was going to have a nacropsy done and make me pay for it and the snake. During one such phone call, my mom finally got on the phone with her boyfriend and told him to stop calling, if they felt they really had a case, to take it to court and we would be happy to see them there. We have not heard from her since, that was approximately 2 years ago. It was certainly a lesson learned. I would never do buisness with her again.

Also, as a foot-note, I didn't hide behind my parents, my mother got tired of these so-called adults threatening a minor, no block was ever put on our phone, we have also had the same phone number for the past 16 years.
Wesley Allange Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3337.html Posted At 16:26:38 05/14/2001

Also, please note that the "cruel fate" that she speaks of that befell the baby Brazilian Rainbow Boa occurred while under her care...not mine. Thanks, Wesley
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3348.html Posted At 20:27:34 05/14/2001

Vincent, no problem. As we can see from Wesley's reply there are always two sides to every story. I guess my ultimate point is this: Get a guarantee in writing if it is obtainable, otherwise the moment you take possesion the animal all of it's possible problems are your own. Brian
Jen @ HerpCrazy Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3359.html Posted At 09:09:23 05/15/2001

This is to Wesley,
BULL!

I notified you after the snake died.
I didn't threaten anyone, and I had one of the best vets in the state backing me.

Why then, if your reputation is so good, when I asked one of your aquantances at the St. Tammany show if they know you, they said and I do quote... "Why, did he screw you too?"

My reputation is immpecable, NEVER has a customer come back to me, sales or trades, with an animal that had died. An I am most certain that I have been doing this much longer than you. And I do keep in touch with them to be assured of the animal's well being.

I consider our little trade to be a good lesson in life, but don't say that I threateded you.

Question for you. If the carpet python had died wouldn't you have been upset?

And you know what, if it had I would have made good on the deal, because that is the kind of breeder that I am.

How much experience do you have , my young friend?
The boa died from your care, not mine. I could have kept the snake in a shoebox in a closet with no heat, and if it was healthy it would have lived more than two days.

I'm not worried about you in the least, if you practice the same way in life as you did in this trade, you will burn yourself out of the hobby without anyone's help.

I do wish you and your animals a long, happy life.

Regards,
Jen Prejean
"HerpCrazy Reptiles"
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3383.html Posted At 08:00:42 05/16/2001

"I guess my ultimate point is this: Get a guarantee in writing if it is obtainable, otherwise the moment you take possesion the animal all of it's possible problems are your own." ~Brian Conley

OR save yourself the headaches and deal with people who back what they sell as a matter of principle.
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3387.html Posted At 10:12:05 05/16/2001

James, that will work also, as long as you personally know the people you buy every snake from. But we don't live in a herpetological utopia. I'll give you a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Last year at the Daytona Expo a woman was trying to get back in through the doors as the show was winding-up. She said that a baby ball python that her son had bought that morning had died and she wanted to get her money back. Sounds like an open and shut case doesn't it? She'd had the snake less than 4 or 5 hours and now it was dead. Refund that money for sure, Right?
Well upon further questioning the guy at the door found out the woman and her son had done some shopping and had left the snake in the car while they shopped. When he informed her that the heat probably killed the snake her reply was, "Why, it's a reptile they like it hot, don't they?" I didn't make this story up. I was standing right there when she said it. Frankly, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
As a breeder and part time wholesaler, I can tell you it is impossible to guarantee animals forever against everything. Some people are idiots and now matter how great of an animal you sell them they will eventually kill it. I have a couple pet store accounts and one always wants a guarantee. I give it to them no problem. But, you know what, they pay extra for it. A ball python that would normally cost them $15 costs them $25 and they're happy to pay it, even though in 3 years of buying from me they've never used the guarantee. Eventually, I think they'll realize that I sell high quality animals period, and they'll quit paying extra for a guarantee they don't need, but until then I have to charge them extra just in case they hire some idiot to take care of the reptiles I sell them. Brian
Nick Thomas Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3456.html Posted At 15:11:31 05/19/2001

Jen-

I don't want to get on anyone's bad side but Wesley never said you didn't notify him, he just said it was around a week after it died, also, he never said you threatened him, but that your boyfriend did.

Nick Thomas
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3492.html Posted At 08:09:43 05/21/2001

Well yes Brian, obviously we can agree that there are a ton of jerks out there that will screw you over at every opportunity. However, with a little research and time, I believe you CAN find a breeder that would do everything in their power to make a deal right (the animal in question in this post died of a pre-existing neuro problem within 48 hrs of the new owner taking possesion! Yes, Jen could be lying.). Personally, I'll just stick to the breeders that have made a good name for themselves over the years by providing top notch service and animals. If I deal with a lesser known breeder, I'll make damn sure to do my research. I guess I'll just live blissfully in my "herpetological utopia."
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3538.html Posted At 11:20:55 05/22/2001

James, here's the problem. Did she or didn't she have and/or ask for a guarantee. Did she or didn't she notify him of the death and if so when. Did he tell her he would pay for a necropsy? If not, why should he.
Here's one of the biggest problems I have with the story, what neurological condition? There are hundreds, which one killed this animal. If the vet knows it was preexisting, surely he/she knows the name of the condition. Also, how much was spent on this necropsy? I would imagine in order to diagnose a preexisting neurological condition this would have had to have been a fairly extensive necropsy, probably in the $200 plus category. So why pay for a $200 necropsy on a $125 snake you've owned for two days?? To prove a point!?! Jen said it herself, this has been an expensive leason. I don't think that either party involved in this case is a bad person, I just think something bad happened to Jen's snake and it doesn't sound like she did anything wrong, (other than spending money on a necropsy w/o previous promise of payment from Wesley).
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3570.html Posted At 08:40:46 05/23/2001

Well Brian, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Simply put, I don't want to deal with a person that requires a hand written guarentee to replace an animal that dies within 48 hrs. of purchase. I never said she should get her money back for the vet visit if she didn't have it approved (by Wesley who apparently had his phone # changed and wouldn't respond to Jen anyway). She SHOULD get her money back for a snake that died within a few days of her care with or without a guarentee. I just see this as good business. Of course the breeder will have to make judgments on people trying to screw him/her over. Maybe Wesley thinks Jen is just trying to steal from him.

Granted, Jen could be BS'ing. As could Wesley.

This is how I see this situation. Jen buys the snake. Snake dies a few days later. Jen takes it and finds out why. Vet says pre-existing condition. Jen calls breeder and asks for her money back. Breeder says no, the snake was fine, it's her fault. Jen says she has proof it's not her fault. Breeder says no, changes phone number, refuses to have any further contact with Jen. Jen says, "Well this sucks!"

Me- Raise eyebrow and think I'll stick to giving my hard earned money to those that would rather cut off an arm then have a displeased customer.
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3582.html Posted At 13:25:20 05/23/2001

James, I don't even think we have to disagree. If the story is exactly as you state then yes some accomadations should be made. But there's another way to look at the story: Person A contacts person B, says hey lets trade, person B says sounds like a good deal, I'll buy the snake you want and trade you for a snake I want. Trade is made. A week later person A contacts person B and says, hey, this snake died 5 days ago and MY vet says it's your fault, give me my money back or my boyfriend is gonna beat you up. Person B hangs-up ( as most of us would) and says I'm not talking to person A anymore.
Person B keeps his/her arms so that he/she can take care of other snakes, and realizes that no matter how nice it sounds, customers are NOT ALWAYS right.
James I would replace an animal that died after 48 hours w/o a written guarantee provided I knew or was comfortable with the manner in which the animal had been cared for, AND I was notified immediately upon it's demise. I break my arm trying to make sure customers know what they're getting into BEFORE the sell, that way I'm covered just in case something goes wrong after the sale. In fact, right now I owe one of my students an albino corn. She bought one from me and it died after she had it over 2 months. But, I knew she didn't cause the problem because it's sibling died on me of the same condition. That animal will be replaced as soon as my first clutch hatches. Brian
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3589.html Posted At 16:41:59 05/23/2001

Brian, it seems we have our own conversation going on here =) Just for the record, I'm not in any way saying that YOU would not be a good person to do business with. I've just realized you may have assumed I thought otherwise from the posts above. I actually think we agree on this more then we disagree on many levels.

Back to the issue at hand... So what it comes down to is you say Jen is bs'ing and I say Wesley is. However, even in your example above, I would still think Wesley would owe Jen compensation (minus the alleged butt kicking threats). The animal was in her possesion for only a week AND she can present evidence stating the snake died of causes not related to her care. Now we can't see the report here, however Wesley has already come on to say this situation did happen. If he says no, the death is Jen's fault, and she can show him evidence (fax the report, whatever) that it was not, then she is owed compensation.

Again, in my mind, this is taking far too much writing to even explain. As a breeder (which I am not BTW) and somebody with a reputation to protect, if I heard an animal I sold to an obviously experienced herper died within 2 days of purchase, I would do anything I could to make the deal right.

I can guarantee Jen won't buy from somebody before doing a little research again. I think reading about how a breeder handles a deal gone bad will tell you all you need to know before you buy.
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3596.html Posted At 18:25:35 05/23/2001

James, yes we have a great conversation going on! Thanks for not holding my opinion against me. First off let me say this; I, IN NO WAY, think Jen is BS'ing. I am taking the two stories at face value, which is all I can do because I don't know either person. I am simply taking the side of the seller in this age old argument.
I am a breeder BTW (corns, kings, milks, pythons and finally this year boas) and I run into this argument all the time. It's great to be able to discuss this here in a public forum. Here's the problem with replacing the BRB. She said it died in two days. Wesley said he wasn't notified for over a week. There's a BIG difference between 2 and 7+ days. She says she has evidence that it wasn't her fault. He says he has evidence it was't his. I think that people tend to take her side because a) she's the one who lost an animal (it's sad) b) Wesley is just a kid (can't be trusted or doesn't know what he's talking about) c) she says she had a necropsy done (DVM can't be wrong).
Well, it is sad when anybody loses an animal, but that doesn't always mean that the person that sold it to them is in the wrong. Look at the story above w/ the ball python. If no agreement is arranged up front the buyer or trader in this case assumes all the risk, in my opinion. Especially in this case, where neither party really knew each other, and the complaining party is over the age of 18, and by her own admission very experienced with reptiles. She should have known better, in my opinion.
Wesley was only 15 at the time of the trade, Jen knew that going in. So she can't complain about it now. Everyone in this country knows or should know that no one under the age of 18 can enter into a contract, verbal, written, whatever. If the snake's death is Wesley's fault AND he was notified right away, yes he should try to make things right. But as of yet, that hasn't been proven, and even if it is, Jen has ZERO legal ground to stand on.
Jen had a necropsy done, and people tend to take what a vet says as the gospel. Here's the problem, Jen takes her dead snake to HER vet and says "Hey Doc, I just got this snake from some kid and it died. Can you check it out and make sure it wasn't my fault?" The doc says, "Sure, bring it in, we'll take a look." The vet does a necropsy charges Jen X amount of $$'s and tells her what she wants to hear. "Preexisting neurological condition" means squat! Preexisting from when? Yesterday, last week, birth, what? And what condition is it? MDSS, "Mysterious Deadious Snake Syndrome" probably.
James, it comes down to this. I hate to see ANYBODY lose an animal, but they are animals. They can just up and die. My wife's best friend's husband dropped dead last week of a heart attack at the ripe old age of 35! It happens, and sometimes there is know way to see it coming. I remember once about 6 years ago I had a pair of Dumeril's Boas. This was back when they cost way more than they do now. One day I walk into my snake room and I'm standing there admiring my beautiful, expensive, long term captive, just ate 2 days ago, awesome snakes, and the male turns around, looks at me, bites himself in the back, and drops dead! Just like that!! NO warning, no symptoms, no fault on my part (in my opinion), just dies! Sometimes herping just ain't fair. And I just don't think it's fair to say that Wesley is at fault here and call him a bad guy when he didn't really do anything wrong either. Brian
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3616.html Posted At 22:31:51 05/23/2001

So ok Brian, what in your mind would have made it ok for Jen to get compensation? Is it the difference of 5 days of not making a phone call. And I have to ask myself WHY in the heck would she go through the hassle of having a necropsy done? She wanted an explanation of course. You say you think she is in no way BS'ing. So then you believe the snake did die within 48 hrs. of purchase. Ok then, we agree on the point that the snake died within 2 days. Why does it matter if she called a few days later? She stated she wanted to find out why. After all, as you've stated, snakes DO just die. And I'll choose not to jump to the conclusion that she's got the vet in her pocket. What we have to go on here is her submission that the vet said the snake died because of a pre-exisiting condition. If Wesley doubts this, he can easily get a copy of the report. If Jen is lying, case closed. However, when Jen did finally find out from the vet, she called to get her money back on a bad snake. Does this make Wesley wonder if he's getting scammed? If so, she can not only send him the body, but a vet report saying she did nothing wrong. It just seems that if you, Brian, don't think Jen is lying at all, then your saying Wesley has NO responsibility here ONLY because she waited 5 days post-death to call. That's ridiculous! How many hurdles does she have to clear to prove she was on the wrong end of a bad deal? Heck, I'm not even saying Wesley ever even knowingly sold a sick snake. Doesn't change the fact that it obviously was. Again I ask you what else could she have done? If I buy a snake from you, it dies in a few days, I present you with a vets report that said this snake had a pre-exisiting condition that caused it's death, then you say, "Sorry, that vet must've been your friend and I just don't believe it," I'm going to cry foul!
Now I admit, if she was to take him to court, she may or may not win. I happen to think she'd win because she has at least some form of "expert" testimony on her side in the vet. Again, that's beyond the point... well, at least my point. All of the above leads me to believe Jen got screwed out of a beautiful snake and Wesley should make good on a deal gone bad.
Off topic...What kind of boas? I just got my first Hog Island a few weeks back. Beautiful animal!
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3629.html Posted At 08:21:06 05/24/2001

James, I'm not going to say anyone (jen or wes) is BS'ing because I don't know. Yes, in my mind the difference is the time it took Jen to call. Wesley had no way of knowing when that snake died. Jen can say it happened after 48 hours but Wesley didn't find out for over a week. If Jen wanted compensation or replacement for that animal she should have called immediately. I had a guy sit on my snakes for 3 months w/o paying for them and then call me and say he wasn't paying for them because he sold them to his friends and then the snakes died (Dan Atkinson see posts below). Now, granted this case is no where near that bad. But it was still Jen's responsibility to contact Wes right away. If your air conditioning goes out in your car w/ 35,000 miles on it but you decide to drive it until it gets to hot to do so, when you pull up to the dealership w/ 38,057 miles on the car what are they going to tell you?? Sorry bud, your warranty ran out 2,057 miles ago. Your argument of, yeah but it broke last winter when it was still under warranty ain't gonna matter a bit.
Look at it this way, you sell a snake. Over a week after the transaction is completed the buyer calls you back and says the animal died 5+ days ago and her vet says it's your fault. The customer didn't contact you first to let you know about the animal she just assumed you would refund her money if the vet said it wasn't her fault. From the sound of this deal Wes had less experience than Jen w/ BRB's and he was only brokering the animal in question. That's the impression I got anyway. My point is, using your argument, the original breeder or whoever Wes got the snake from is the one who should replace it, he's the one who sold a sick animal. That is assuming the preexisting condition went back more than 48 hours from the time of death. I'm saying that in my opinion Jen has to jump through a couple more hoops to convince me (not that I matter at all in this case anyway). James you and Jen assume there is/was a guarantee on the animal. This is a perfect case of thay old joke about assuming. You know, "ass out of "u" and me." I have been in this business about 10 years and trust me, it is much better to lay everything out up front, otherwise if there is a problem someone ends up looking bad. I can state as a matter of experience that there are no guarantees on reptiles in most cases other than live arrival if the animals are shipped to you, and sometimes not even that.

Just a word to Jen and Wes. I am arguing my point that guarantees, if wanted, should be attained up front. I AM NOT saying anything bad, or good, for that matter, about either one of you personally. Your postings have simply been a vehicle for the argument to take place. Good luck in the future.

James, columbian red-tails. 10 born last Tues. and another very gravid female ready to pop any day.
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3631.html Posted At 09:20:43 05/24/2001

Hehe, ok, this is bad, I wake up wanting to get to this post =) Brian, are you going to have pics of those babies?

Ok, this is gonna be my last word on this. Obviously we'll never agree. I just try to put myself in Jen's shoes. Animal dies. I wonder why in the heck did that happen. I take the animal to find out. Expert report comes back saying it was because the animal had a pre-existing condition. I say, "Well that sucks. I want my money/snake/whatever back!" Contact seller. Seller says, "Nope, it's your fault." I say, "But I have proof." Seller changes phone number and doesn't return email.
There is just no way you can convince me that because a few days passed, Wesley is not responsible for his product. In your car example above, you use the wrong analogy. Let's say Jen's new car (her new snake) breaks down (dies) because her transmission has a bad part installed (neuro problem). She doesn't see anything wrong, car feels ok, then one day, the car starts acting very strange. She drives the car around a little to try to figure out what the heck is going on with her brand new car but just can't figure it out. She drives the car to the shop where a certified mechanic (Vet) tells her that her tranny is toast because of a poorly installed factory part(pre-existing neuro condition). She takes the car back to the dealership (Wesley) to get her money back for the lemon they sold her and they tell her NO! Go away, it's your fault. She presents them with documentation (Vet report) saying it's not her fault. They promptley have security remove her from the lot, won't return her calls, ect. Jen gets mad and tells her friends not to deal with said dealership (herpwantads).
Then the two of us debate who is right! LOL!
Of course Jen (and I) have learned a valuable lesson here... don't trust anybody you don't know. But it's just sad that it has to come down to that. Like I said, you'll learn a great deal about a breeder by how s/he handles a deal gone bad.

Anyway Brian, I have to say I've enjoyed this argument even though we'll NEVER agree =) You are obviously an honorable person and just trying to do right by the herp community. I look forward to your posts.
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3639.html Posted At 12:21:08 05/24/2001

James, I'm just as bad as you. Nothing better than a good argument. Your analogy will work and you're correct mine was a little off. But, Jen has park her car at the tech's place (vets office) and wait to notify the dealership until after her three years of ownership is up (3 yr/36000 mile warranty) for the analogy to be perfect. So then, at that point, is the dealership responsible? And is it the dealership, or the manufacturer? I think that yes the manufacturer is responsible, but not legally. Because Jen waited to long. She also went to her mechanic and not back to the dealership where she bought the car. She probably also voided the warranty by not having the work done at the dealership (talking to Wes first). And don't forget Jen has to show up at the dealership with her large, angry boyfriend to threaten the service manager. This all happens before she is escorted off. And remember if the manufacturer won't reimburse the dealership because the warranty period has run out then the dealership can't fix the car. If they fixed all the cars like this one of two things would happen: 1) the dealership would go broke and out of business or 2) cars would so expensive that only the very rich could afford them.

I'll take some pics w/ my new digital cam and email them to you. Brian

P.S. Prices will depend on what guarantee you want!!!! HAHA =)
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3679.html Posted At 20:32:22 05/24/2001

Ahhhhaaa, you say the warranty is up, I say it actually has about a year left on it (again, we go back to the 5 days being in question). In THAT case, maybe it is the manufacturer that made the error, however the dealer is the seller and is therefore responsible for his/her product. If the dealer loses money because of a mistake the manufacturer made, then he can always recoup his losses by presenting evidence (Hey, you sold me a snake with a neuro problem and I have proof!). Jen shouldn't have to deal with the manufacturer. In this case, this car manufacturer may live in some far off land, produce very few cars, have no way for Jen to contact them. It's the dealers responsibilty to sell a quality product that has not been misrepresented...even unknowingly. The warranty in this case has not expired. Noooo way. People work, have lives, ect. She took the snake to the vet. I'm not arguing that she should get the money for the vet visit. She did that to ease her mind. But a vet visit might add a day or two in there. Whatever. Point is, snake dies on day two, on day seven, after a vet visit to verify Jen didn't mess up somehow, she calls to let Wesley know what he sold her was NOT a healthy animal and she can present the best proof possible in this case. As a business person, the best and only course of action is to take care of this ASAP and make that customer happy. Why would you want to deal with somebody who would fight you over a dead snake that you had no part in killing after owning the animal less then a week and on top of it all having a vet say what killed it was there before you bought it. In the mean time, Wesley goes on his merry way with his HEALTHY, LIVING, ACTIVE, PROPERLY REPRESENTED brand spankin' new python all the while refusing contact with Jen.
Now Brian, if I were to buy a boa from you on Sunday (I will NOT buy another snake, I will NOT buy another snake, I will... hehe) and it dies on Tuesday. I give you a call the following weekend and tell you the bad news. You know I know how to care for the animal properly, but you question me anyway. I have no problem with this and have all the answers you want to hear. Right there I suspect YOU would either want to get me money or another snake or ask me to take it to have a necrospy to see if it died of natural causes or something else. Lets say you aske me to take it to the vet. I say I already did. Just for my own curiosity because I wasn't sure either. I tell you the vet said it was a pre-existing condition and I can fax you a copy. Are you still going to tell me tough luck? No way! IMO, that's exactly what happened here... maybe some extra fireworks but that's it essentially. And afterall, if you basically said to kiss off after I presented evidence you sold me a bad product (because that's what a snake with a neuro condition is) I'd probably be a little upset too.... then send my girlfriend over to kick your butt! She IS a kickboxer ya know. Hehehe.

Ok, I'd like the full 80 page small print triplicate copy of your guarentee signed infront of a notary before I buy a baby =) Snake somehow MUST be able to live past the 5 day mark in my care. An iffy proposition at best! If snake does die, I want a 2, NO, a 3 day grace period in which to reach you. I do have to work ya know. If you fail to honor your guarantee, my girlfriend gets to beat you sensless and steal your remaining BCI collection. Agreed?
Seriously though, looking forward to pics. I LOVE babies!
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3684.html Posted At 21:29:03 05/24/2001

OK, stop with the girlfriend beating me up thing! I'm getting excited and my wife is getting jealous.

I reason I got into this argument (that I'm loving) is because in the past I have mainly done wholesale. About 80-90% of what I produce is wholesaled out the day it hatches. I am considering going into public sales but needed ideas as to how to handle this whole guarantee problem. Here's the senario, I would sell you a boa for about $50-60. You are welcome to come inspect that boa and even take it to your vet for a check-up. However, the instant you hand me $50 it's yours. I'll still answer all your questions and return your calls but, I don't want to hear about the snake dying. Why? Well if I sell boas that cheap I don't have enough room built into the price to replace them if they die. If I wholesale 25 boas off tomorrow for $50 each and 2 or 3 die in the next week I'm not going to hear one word about it. Likewise, if I go to a wholesaler and buy 100 ball pythons and 15 die in the next two weeks they won't hear from me. Hell, even if all 100 died they would tell me to go jump in a lake. That's the kind of sales I'm used to.
Now if you as the customer want some kind of guarantee I would probably offer the following: baby boa guaranteed to feed for $85. You try to feed it, if it won't eat return it for another one that will. If that wasn't good enough we'd go to the next level, a two-week guarantee of health (to include: feeding, and living at least that long). Your cost is now up to $150 for one baby boa. What do you think is the best deal??

I'll get my wife to show me how to send the pics as soon as she starts talking to me again. HAHA Brian.

P.S. Send pics of girlfriend, I love babes! =)
James Friess Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3711.html Posted At 08:33:25 05/25/2001

Well that makes sense Brian. If I had a chance to inspect the boa and have it checked out, whatever happens from then on out is my problem. Agreed 100%. What we have here is a breeder (you) talking to a keeper (me) so we'll tend to see things a bit differently. I want and expect top notch customer service from somebody I'm giving my money to. That's why I said originally to buy from either one of the better known names out there OR somebody you've done research on/gotten to know somehow. It'll save you one very large headache. I, for instance, would have no qualms about buying from you. I come here and read this situation, which Wesley verified, and think that no matter who was right in this situation (I say Jen, you say Wesley), I wouldn't want to buy from him because of how everything was handled. There are too many breeders out there that will do everything they can for customer satisfaction.

As for your business... well a baby boa for $150 sounds about right depending on quality. Remember I'm just a keeper and buying a single boa for that price is about what I'd expect for a better quality BCI. And every single breeder I've seen on the web will keep the single babies until first shed, feeding well on F/T, guaranteed healthy and will arrive live with no mites or infections, and is the exact animal represented in pics if there were any. This is all a customer needs to be guarenteed of! If the breeder screws any one of those up, I want my money back or a new, healthy, equal quality snake. As a buyer, I don't think this is too much to ask.
I have some friends locally that bought a hog island from a rather infamous individual on these boards that has the initals JT. The snake arrived with obvious neurological problems, mites, and wasn't even the snake good 'ole JT had pics of in his add! His response was... the mites must've come from them (mites were found on the snake as soon as they opened the box at a vets office where the husband works...and I can personally vouch for their personal home collection being mite free); the snake doesn't have any neuro problems (although the snake pulled the old star gazing routine and when rolled to it's back would just lay there... JT later admitted his daughter had slammed the cage door on the animals head before he shipped), and that he thought they UNDERSTOOD the animals being sold were simply offspring of the babies shown in the add. Arrrrggghhhh! After a run around, JT *graciously* decided to send the couple a new hog island when available...over a month ago and still they have no snake.
Customer service isn't a chore if you just treat your customers with respect and realize they came to you with the utmost trust and confidence in your business.
(Jen buys snake)+(snake dies in 2 days)+(vet says not Jen's fault)= Jen got a bad snake

You want the naked girlfriend pics or the regular? Hehehe. To Mrs. Conley....Juuuuust kidding =)
Brian Conley Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
3717.html Posted At 09:40:39 05/25/2001

James, um let em think..... NAKED!!!!!!! At least we can agree on that.

I guess I can live with the type of guarantee you want as long as you're willing to pay $150 for a snake I'd normally sell for $60. Personally, I rather check out the snake first and pay $60. That way if I'm right and the snake is in good health I've got an extra $90 left and I can go back and buy another one and take my wife out to dinner to smooth over the fact that I just bought another snake.

The only problem I have with the vet/necropsy thing is that most vets are not very experienced w/ reptiles. Where I live there are over 20 vets in the county. About 3 or 4 will see reptiles, and only 1 of those do I trust. And that trust only goes so far, as we have had our disagreements as well. It is my belief that if a customer walks into their vet's office and says, "I need a necropsy done to show that this snake had a preexisting condition and that I didn't kill it so I can get a refund." that is what they will get. Unless the conditon of the animal is so bad that it is obvious that truama was invovled. Let's face it, in the absence of trauma, ALL conditions are preexisting at the time of death. And I as a breeder am certainly not going to pay for necropsy performed by your vet and w/o my permission. Which was basically what Wes was TOLD he was going to have to do or get beat up. Here's the thing, this situation was handled poorly (in my opinion) on both sides, it was just that Jen got stuck w/ the dead snake that makes it especially bad for her. I don't think we can label Wes a bad guy based on THIS one experience. I would still buy from him IF he had an animal I wanted at a good price and in good condition. I would do the same w/ Jen if she would let me after this whole mess.
Brian
Amanda Lyons Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
5806.html Posted At 19:50:06 07/14/2001

hey i think wesley is the best!! he's kool, and he def knows what he is doin bout snakes!! so i say screw all ya'll!!!
dude u ppl have no damn clue what ya'll r sayin! he knows everything bout snakes!! ya'll r messed up if ya'll go to
sumone else to buy u'r snakes! if i buy any snakes, i go to wesley cuz he knows wut he's doin!! and he never messes up!
well all i'm sayin is if ya'll get a snake from sumone other than wesley, ya'll r stupid and ya'll will be screwed because
u'r snake will be all messed up and will die, cuz the guy u got it from will have no clue what the hell he is doin!
Amanda Lyons Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
6121.html Posted At 18:57:24 07/20/2001

I LOVE U WESLEY!!! U R THE BEST!!!! AND HE CAN BEAT ANY OF U IN SELLIN SNAKES, CUZ YA'LL ALL FUCKIN SUCK!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOVE YA AGAIN WES!! AND I'M DAMN PROUD TO BE U'R CUZIN!!!
Jennifer Re: Wesley Allange (Southern Snakes) -- Bad Guy
9601.html Posted At 00:52:57 10/01/2001

Hey Fuck all of yallm cuz you know what ya dumb bastard ur snake died cuz u didnt know what the fuck u were doing!!!! and u just better leave wesley alone or me and amanda are gonna kick your ass!!!!later yall and just remember what i said!!

[an error occurred while processing this directive]