| Author | Subject: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys |
| Ira Caplinger | Posted At 19:51:06 05/21/2001
We puchased a bearded dragon from jackie vandiver which was supposed to be an orange tiger, he only has a slight hint of orange around his ears, and has 4 yellow stripes on his beard the rest of him is almost black. When we got him he was orange (not as bright as the pic they sent) and after about one month later he turned really dark and has stayed that way. When we tried to contact the vandivers to find out about his parents and his hatch date, after numerious e-mails was told he needed to be in the sun, when we put him in the sun he turned even darker (almost black)we finally after two and a half months talked to jackie on the phone and was told he was a orange tiger x yellow sandfire and she didn't have a record of his hatch date. Jackie said if we were not satisfied we could exchange him for another dragon or get discount on another dragon. We bought him in good faith and got attached to him and couldn't send him back. After this experience why would we want to purchase another from them? |
| Jude Fitch{MiLadyDragonn} |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3513.html Posted At 20:33:40 05/21/2001 ~First of all, how old was the dragon when you purchased it? Dragons go through a miriad of changes as they grow and it is not unusual for them to look nothing like the parents. The phase coloration is in the genetics and can show up in future offspring. ~Dragons do get very dark when stressed or cold. Sometimes, they get stressed for reasons we don't realize. Perhaps he felt threatened when you put him in the sun...did he feel he was open to "attack"? They still fall back on instinctive reactions to their surroundings. ~I don't know if you are an experienced dragon owner or not, so I may be talking to a brick wall here. I have 20+ years of herpetology under my belt and most of it with BD's. If I can help, please let me know. ~ I have not done business with the VanDivers, but I have never heard anything negative about them...just the opposite. ~Just to show you what I mean, I have a male hypoXsnow that looks nothing like his parents...they are very light in color..almost white, and yet, he has dark gray and black markings. As I said, it is in the genetics. He could produce a pure white hatchling! ~Actually, your dragon sounds quite unique and attractive. jude |
| Jim Schmock |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3519.html Posted At 23:28:17 05/21/2001 I have done buisness with the vandivers and have been extremly happy with them, the one female i got from them took awhile to start showing colors but is now gorgous, also i have seen pics of her sisters who are even better, Tom and Jackie are exellent people i am sorry you are disappointed with the color of one of their animals, others have been extremly happy with thiers i am ordering two more remember sometimes it takes time not all dragons come out with color trust me im a breeder. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3533.html Posted At 10:06:22 05/22/2001 I would say that if they offered to exchange the dragon or give you a discount on another one they more than made-up for what sounds like a minor problem. I personally breed snakes, but even with them the others are correct, colors and patterns don't always breed true. Patterns are especially hard to reproduce in animals. You should enjoy what sounds like a healthy animal and in the future if color and pattern are what you want or need wait until the animal is grown and his color/pattern are developed. Brian |
| Mickey(TLK) |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3535.html Posted At 10:57:40 05/22/2001 How old is the dragon currently, and has it shed at all since it has been in your care.I am not saying that in a bad way, but they get very dull prio to sheds.Also I take my beardeds outside very often, and they will get very dull when taken outside, but in the long run the exposure to natural sunlight will benifit their colors. Also many dragons to not show their colors untill later in life.I know this is often said by breeders, and can be looked at as a b.s. line, but it is true.For example "Zilla" jeff of Delux dragons yellow sandfire male was very dull almost untill adult age, and then just shed into a work of art.Many of his babies do the same thing, and I have personally seen it happen in other breeders dragons also. This being said, it is still true that when you buy a color morph of a bearded dragon, you are paying for the genes as much as for the dragon itself.Just because your dragon doesnt look as nice as the parents, doesnt meen it will not later in life, or if nothing else its offspring will show the color.Color also is affected by diet and stress factors. Hopefully you are just jumping the gun, but if not breed your dragon, and see what you get as you could be very suprised. Mickey Hinkle The Lizard King Reptiles |
| Ira Caplinger |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3545.html Posted At 14:33:46 05/22/2001 We are experienced with Bearded Dragons and other lizards. This dragon has shed 4 or 5 time already and gets darker with every shed. We got him at 10 weeks old and now he is 6 months old and is not getting any brighter. We payed alot of money for this dragon and just was disappointed in what we got verses what was advertised. I have heard that the vandivers broker dragons and i am of the opinion that i received one of these because i have yet to get a hatch date from the vandivers. In fact was told they don't have one for him. I have been dealing with alot of other breeders and have never encountered the problems i have with the vandivers. I paid for a vandiver dragon and feel I got someone elses. For such a big named breeder one would think you could get better information from them. I'm not say the vandivers do this to everyone, but am just stating what happened to us. |
| Tom, Jackie and Amanda |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3546.html Posted At 15:11:50 05/22/2001 The caplingers were not sold an Orange Tiger dragon. We don't have orange tigers. We have orange tiger crosses. The dragon they bought is an Orange Tiger crossed with a Sandfire X Red/Gold. The color in those dragons was very variable but all showed (to me) that they had Orange Tiger bloodlines and showed promise of being very nice dragons with different amounts of orange. It is hard to guarantee color when you breed all unrelated stock. We get the orange tigers from Wies Reptiles and the Sandfires and Sandfire X Red/Golds from the Sandfire ranch. Knowing when they bought this dragon, I know it is not an adult and therefore has not fully developed it's adult colors. And it sounds like he continually got darker while with you, this can be a result of stress, and poor diet or possibly and, most likely he is preparing to shed. But from what you posted, I guess it is not shed. You will always see you best colors after a shed. But we have many dragons that waited a year or more to show good color. I still believe he will be a handsome adult dragon and he is what you and many other bought, a Orange Tiger crossed with a Sandfire Red/Gold. We guarantee satisfaction. We offered to give them their money back and knowing that most people won't want that because they have become attached to their new little friend; we offered them a hefty discount on your next dragon from us. |
| Brian Blalock |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3551.html Posted At 19:04:03 05/22/2001 email: bblalock[at]pacbell.net I think this has been covered already, but I'll toss in my own two cents anyway, as I feel this complaint is really unreasonable, and that the complainer is overstating their knowledge level. First, the complaint about the Vandivers being difficult to reach is silly. They are some of the most accessible breeders I know. On to husbandry: The complaint states that the Vandivers said that the dragon darkens up in natural light. That could be a) stress from being outside or b) stress from poor husbandry. Guess what? All of my dragons are dark because they're agitated by the old spingtime restlessness, but none are so stressed that their color doesn't improve when handled and when taken outside for sun. A note on bloodlines: I've seen a lot of Weis orange tigers that show not a whole lot of color. All of my stock came from sandfire, and they were all slow to color up, but now look great. I've also seen two high-color morph dragons that looked dull as adults produce stunning babies. The key to this is patience. The other thing to keep in mind is that you're getting the genes with the dragon. This isn't a simple recessive situation, different dragons will express their genes differently, and anyone who has worked with high end dragons knows this. Some of this has been said already, and perhaps said better, but I think that the problem here is related more to knowledge of the buyer than any kind of misconduct by the Vandivers. Let me add that the accusation that the dragon was possibly brokered can be considered libelous if it's not backed up with hard evidence. FWIW, I've not bought a dragon from the Vandivers, but I am on the waiting list for some of their higher end dragons to use as foundation stock for a breeding project, and have absolutely no qualms about putting my money where my mouth is. When the time comes, I'll post the results of that deal here, including pictures. |
| Ira Caplinger |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3554.html Posted At 19:39:28 05/22/2001 We were told that this dragon was an orange tiger X yellow sandfire, as stated in the first post. We have other dragons all at maximum sizes and this dragon is 15.5 inches and 290 grams at 5 and a half months.(age we estimated because we still do not know his exact age) So husbandry is not an issue as we all know that dragons do not grow like that except under exceptional care. Yes we did have a hard time with e-mails and no we were not offered our money back, but we wouldn't have done that anyway. We did not post here to fight , just to let others know about our experence. |
| cyn kuhn |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3579.html Posted At 11:48:33 05/23/2001 We purchased two feamle dragons from the Vandivers a month or so ago. This was our first on line purchase and we were very very pleased. The females were healthy and obviously well cared for. I know your concern was not about husbandry but felt I needed to make a statement about the quality of animal we purchased. Their colors change with each shed. The younger female who had some red and orange is now getting yellow in her face and beard and the red is mellowing out. The other female just gets brighter and lighter. Hopefully you will take advantage of the offer for a refund or price cut on another dragon. I am sure you are attached to your dragon but if you wanted color and didnt get it and thats the main problem couldnt you get attached to a different one? |
| Viki Berry |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3583.html Posted At 14:35:59 05/23/2001 I haven't had beardies for very long, but I did a lot of research before buying one. As it turned out, I bought a little female from the Vandivers because of the quality of their beardies, many personal recommendations, and the amount of time that Jackie spent with me on the phone and through emails, making sure that I would be fully informed about beardies and their care before I got one. I was not disppointed when the little baby arrived! I WAS THRILLED! One thing I have learned is that NO breeder can GUARANTEE what color a baby will eventually turn out to be as an adult. Out of a clutch, many colors will be seen. Some will take after one or other of the parents and some will even take after the grandparents. Some won't even show much color, but will throw beautiful babies. I am sorry that you are not happy with the color of your beardie, but calling someone a "Bad Guy" because of color is, in my opinion, WAY OUT OF LINE! |
| Webmaster |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3617.html Posted At 22:40:28 05/23/2001 You may notice some holes in this thread. Several people violated the established rules and their messages are now gone. |
| Keyt Harrington |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3640.html Posted At 13:01:24 05/24/2001 Ok let me try this again. I have been a Bearded Dragon owner for over 2 yrs. I have 8 dragons now, and I have dealt with many breeders in the short period of ownership. I cannot express enough how pleased I am with the Vandivers and their dragons, as well as their kindness. I attend a reptile show every month, and I deal with two pet shops with reptile departments that have constantly changing staff. I think I am capable of knowing when a breeder truly knows what they are talking about, as well as when they truly care for their reptiles as well as their customers. Not only that, but I personally purchased two dragons from the Vandivers a couple of weeks ago, and they are very healthy, beautiful dragons! I agree with Viki and the others that calling someone a bad guy just because you didn't get EXACTLY what you wanted is uncalled for. I think it probably comes down to your needing to look at how you feed and care for your dragons, not where they originally came from! It's not always possible to guarantee that a dragon (or any animal) will remain the color or even size that you thought you purchased in the beginning. Just like a human's hair color can start out one shade as a kid, and get darker or lighter as they get older, same thing can happen to a dragon. This can vary for many reasons...diet, housing, exposure to real sunlight, etc. The Vandivers are very kind people who honestly care about their animals. To bad mouth someone you don't know is a bit childish in my opinion. In addition, the Vandivers offered to give you discounts or exchanges and you declined, so don't say they didn't offer to help you. You say you are attached to your dragon? It sounds more like you consider it damaged goods rather than a pet. Consider yourself lucky to have a dragon, and remember it's a pet, not a peice of furniture that was stained improperly. Lastly, I suggest you get to know the Vandivers for yourself. If you can't do that, then you really need to reconsider before you badmouth someone.It is never the Vandivers intention to misrepresent or cheat someone. If you didn't intend to create an argument, then I think you should have thought about how you phrased your words a little more carefully. Good luck! |
| Sandy Brosam |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3645.html Posted At 15:16:05 05/24/2001 I realy have to agree with the others, you absolutely wrong in calling someone a bad guy because of color. I have gotten 6 dragons from different breeders, two had high coccidia, one died before we got him treated, the other barely survived, then I got two with coccidia and MBD, one died. Then I got one with Salmonella! Now these were supposedly "good" breeders, I was in a total panic when the salmonella test came back, and I contacted Jackie Vandiver from her forum posts on kingsnake, she was so much help, she helped my save my dragons from death with her rescue formula, taught me how to force feed, and keep them hydrated. At that time I had not bought dragons from them. She even called her vet for me to answer questions, because my vet was not very experienced in beardies. She did this out of the goodness of her heart, and her love of dragons. I have one dragon on the way from them now, and I am confident that it is healthy, not like the sick ones I got before. so many people new to beardies end up with sick ones and think they did something wrong, but it is the breeders. I have never heard of a sick baby going out to someone from them. On color, I won't repeat what everybody else says, but to say my 600 gram female who is gold/orange/green, gets black and dark gold when in the sunlight to asord the sun (I guess) and stays dark the entire time she is out, but then she gets an awesome bright gold/green/orange when back inside. But another dragon who is a sandfirex gets very bright orange/brown in the sun...Perhaps the darker color is from stress from the other dragons you have. They smell each other, and communicate by clicking thier beards and making a very quiet squeek, so even if they don't see each other they know they are there. I had to give one away that was intimidated by my big ones, he is doing great away from my 600 gram "boss" So maybe there is another reason for the darkness...or maybe it's a gene from way back, they all came from "normal colors" in the begining... I am sorry you are disapointed with your dragon, but really, you have no valid complaint, try $500 in vet bills and heartbreak as you try to nurse the animals you became attached to back to health. By the way neither breeder that sent me the babies that died even offered to replace them. Sandy aka dragonhealer |
| Peter Baumann |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3651.html Posted At 16:06:21 05/24/2001 I wholeheartedly disagree with the “Bad Guys” label in connection with the Vandivers. Here are my facts: I own three bearded dragons and I have thoroughly researched the subject of bearded dragon husbandry over the last few months. I agree with what Brian Blalock (and others) said above on husbandry, bloodlines and color variation. There is really no basis for Mr and Mrs Caplinger’s complaints. What I would like to add is that the Vandivers (Tom and Jackie) are the most caring and available dragon breeders that I have ever met. The amount of time Jackie spends giving advice to novices as well as long-time dragon owners is exceptional and should be a shining example to many other breeders. If you would like to see for yourself, please come to their chatroom http://www.vandivers.com/echat42/public/index.html In the last month Jackie and Tom have been accessible at this forum daily for several hours. And here is my opinion: The post that started this thread was not primarily motivated by Ira Caplinger and spouse being dissatisfied with their bearded dragon, but by some personal issues relating to the Vandivers running an excellent Website. I don’t want to go into this here, as it is not the purpose of this board to explain why some people feel the need to throw dirt at others. However, if you were considering buying a dragon from Tom and Jackie and are now concerned after reading the posts by Ira Caplinger – please email me. This board provides us as herper community with a great opportunity to gain access to information about the ever-increasing number of businesses that buy and sell reptiles and amphibians. I would like to thank the people that run this site for the time and effort that they put into it and I encourage you all to use the board of inquiry for its intended purpose and not to carry your personal grudges to this site. |
| Ira Caplinger |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3694.html Posted At 23:51:06 05/24/2001 The only thing personal that we have is this, bottom line, we have a dragon with no hatch date and now two genetic backgrounds. Facts: 1. We got a picture from the vandivers of a little orange dragon. ( we have pic ) 2. We overnighted the money order to them. (we have receipt) 3. One week and one day later we received the dragon. (have receipt and no idea why she waited ) 4.We opened the box to find a very dark dragon, which we inquired about. We were told that "he will lighten up". 5.Have four e-mails asking about his hatch date with the response of "we'll get back to you" (have e-mails and printed them out) 6.Two months later, I (the "spouse") talked to Jackie in a recorded telephone call that stated , "he is mixed with a yellow sandfire " and " we have no copy of a hatch date for him". 7. Have vet papers stating that he is very healthy. 8. Now three months later, we have a very expensive, very healthy, very dark dragon , with no hatch date (like around the 15th through the 20th would be fine) and now two backgrounds. (as stated above that he is a cross of a sandfire/red gold and not a yellow sandfire). That is the only personal thing about this. It is more than just the color. It is not getting any answers and about how things are changing about the background of this dragon. That is bad business. This boad is to inform people about how business deals are. We are not stating that this happens to everyone, but it happened to us. |
| Keyt Harrington |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3710.html Posted At 08:11:34 05/25/2001 Well, I was hoping that this subject would be dropped a long time ago, but I see the Caplingers won't let it rest. I once again have a few things to comment on, so I will number my responses according to the previous post. 1. Pictures don't always show a dragon's true colors 3. Umm, I guess you have yet to realize that the Vandivers have a life too outside of trying to please everyone who wants one of their reptiles. 4. Of course it would be a dark dragon in the box. It was probably cold and a bit scared...the two times they are dark! 5. Once again, getting back to they have a life. I have seen them apologize for not responding to emails as quickly as they'd like. Then again, if your emails to them were anything like your posts here...pushy and argumentative, I probably wouldn't rush to respond to you either! 6. Recorded phone call? Were the Vandivers aware that you recorded this call..and most importantly, isn't that carrying it a bit too far!?!?! 7. I'm glad that your dragon is healthy...now think once again about the age and exposure to sunlight thing most of us have mentioned! 8. I noticed 'expensive' was mentioned first. Is this about money or about a pet? Ok, so you didn't get the perfect dragon you were looking for. You have stated this a few times now, and those of us that have followed your posts have given you many reasons as to why your dragon may not be what you want. The Vandivers have given you offers to help you, but you have declind. You should consider yourself lucky that you have a healthy dragon, some of either don't have a healthy dragon now, and some of have even lost a dragon recently as I did two days ago. Lastly, you have yet to address the fact that you really were wrong in stating the Vandivers are 'bad guys' when it is obvious that you are a minority in your belief. Now go pick up your dragon and tell it you're sorry for belittling its existance and consider yourself lucky you have it at all. |
| Lorna Lowder |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Good Guys? You Bet!!!
3741.html Posted At 00:03:57 05/26/2001 I do believe most of this "charge" has already been answered by those before me. But there is still one comment which needs to be addressed. "Brokering" animals by the Vandivers. A Broker as defined by the New World Dictionary is a person hired to act as an agent or intermediary in making contracts or sales. As most people who really know the Vanidvers and myself are aware Jackie takes my baby beardies and raises them. But she is not brokering them. My personal health is not the issue here but it is a factor when it comes to the welfare of the baby dragons produced by my adults. I cannot take proper care of too many dragon babies at one time. I mentioned on another forum I would be destroying the eggs because of my inability to raise the babies properly, - not a solution which made me feel good- and I refuse to sell babies as hatchlings to wholesellers. Jackie offered to take the babies and raise them for me. Now you need to understand these are all normal phase dragons which require as much care as the most colorful dragon around. I told this to Jackie and her comment was, "That's fine, I love them and don't mind taking care of them". "IF" the Vandivers sold their babies at a month old then maybe there would be profit in rearing normal phases. The Vandivers keep their babies until they are up to three months old or around ten inches. By time they have fed these little ones and all the other expense and time involved do you think there is a big profit if any at all? I don't and other breeders can testify to the truth of this matter. Do I receive compensation for giving these dragons to the Vandivers? NO. I pay for my dragons just like anyone else who gets them from Tom and Jackie. Do I expect I should receive compensation? Absolutely Not! Do I owe Tom and Jackie...Yes, more than I can ever repay. I hate the idea of not letting my dragons' offspring survive if they would have if they belonged to someone who could raise their own hatchlings. The thought of freezing viable eggs bothers me greatly. I feel I owe so much to Jackie and Tom for giving me peace of mind. As for the Vandivers selling these as dragons of their breeding.- No way. If you had received one of these offspring you'd know without a doubt. They are NORMAL PHASE dragons. Are the Vandivers "Brokers"? everyone who reads this board can make their own decision on that point. I call Jackie the Angel of Mercy to the Beardies. She doesn't hesitate to take in a dragon whose health has been ruined by others who either didn' t know what the dragons needed to avoid MBD or paralysis from being fed to big of prey or just plain poor husbandry. She doesn't ask for any form of compensation to help feed or care for these animals for the rest of their natural life. She has taken animals for people who have been transferred overseas in the military along with offering to return the animals when the owner was capable of having them back. She took a dragon from me which I couldn't tame, tamed it and offered to send it back to me. Jackie has offered to take hatchlings and raise them up to a suitable size and send them back to me so I could give them to some friends for free. The Vandivers intentions here are to offer as much help as possible to all beardies -whether they are the breeder of said animal or not- What has been your intentions? Personally I do not believe your intentions in this matter are what you stated. I believe Peter B. stated in his responce what most others feel was the intent here. Maligning a good and caring individual as Jackie (and Tom) is the true crime here. My opinion here about your little dragon: If he is such a disappointment to you both why not do all of you a big favor and return him for a refund. Looking at him each day will only remind you how you feel you've been treated. It can't be good for anyone thing in this case, you or the dragon. Then you'll be able to get a beardie with more color and the dragon will end up with someone who truely appreciates his worth. _ A great little dragon. |
| Heath Moylan |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3791.html Posted At 20:44:57 05/27/2001 you had a complaint, which i won't bother arguing about because it's all been said, and the vandivers offered to ammend it by trading it in or through a discount on future purchases. you should take them up on it or quit whining. the fact that one of their beardies isn't showing good color doesn't reflect poorly on them in any way as breeders or business people - that's just the way it works. you have nothing to complain about, and the fact that you are so willing to bad mouth them in a public forum doesn't reflect well on you. |
| Denise Ahearn |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) Bad Guys
3881.html Posted At 20:15:54 05/29/2001 man, what can I say that hasn't been said the Vandivers have saved my little girls grieving heart a year ago I met Tom and Jackie Vandiver and never met more honest and caring people in my life they are so easily accessable and if not by phone any hour of the day or night unless Jackie is attending to her beardies that she puts all her love and devotion too and I do mean every single beardie but she ALWAYS answers messages ALWAYS! and she is always accessable through her website at noon in her chatroom in not there, she is accessable on her forum both Tom and Jackie are always around they never get sleep they spend there whole life devoted to helping others and I know the minute I get on the computer Tom or Jackie is there. I knew absolutly nothing about beardies and a year later well I rock! and 4 Vandiver beardies later I am now thriving with information given to me by Tom and Jackie and feel great about helping others. but the most important thing is a year ago my 11 yearold daughter lost her father unexpectally to liver failure and thats when I met the Vandivers I was looking for a pet for my daughter and since we couldn't have a dog my daughter saw a beardie that her cousin had and I came on the computer looking for information and did research before I decided maybe I would suprise my daughter, I got talking to Jackie and the next thing I knew that big heart of Jackie's I got a knock on the door and a big white box said "warning live reptile" on the side I couldn't belive my eyes my daughter opend the box and up looked a beautiful dragon the most beautiful color I have ever seen in my life that baby looked at us as if to say "I was sent from heaven" and she sure was!!! my daughter was so happy she was beside herself. she has done wonders for my daughter and also myself. I know this story doesn't have to much to do with anything but I do want to say BAD GUYS? I think not...... they are my angels and I will be forever greatful..... |
| Dani Vinson |
Re: Bearded Dragons and More (vandiver) GOOD Guys
3945.html Posted At 11:34:30 05/31/2001 First of all, you should be happy that you are able to have one of the best/loveable/cutest animals as a pet! I recently bought two 6-month old females from them after searching ALL the different breeders. Tom & Jackie were the kindest and the most informed people I encountered. They helped me with all my questions and concerns. I did not receive my girls immediately after paying for them because Tom & Jackie wanted to make sure the girls were ready to be shipped. They were thinking about the wellfare of my girls, not "how fast can we get them out of here & make a sale." I don't understand why you are not able to contact Tom & Jackie? They are constantly available either through email, phone, or through their chat room. Personally I have been in their chat room at all hours of the day & have been able to talk with either one of them. I am not going to go on & try to argue your post, everyone else has done that & I completely agree with all of them. I do want to say that your opinion of the Vandivers as being "the bad guys" is absolutely outrageous!! They are GOOD guys!!!!! The best!!!! |
| Joe Romley/South Coast Reptiles |
Not Bad Guys
3956.html Posted At 14:27:13 05/31/2001 Tom and Jackie and very good people to do business with. I have done business with them and I know many others who have. I've never heard a bad thing about them. A dragon that is turning black is doing so because of what the owner is doing to it. Not because of what the breeder is doing. I've had thousands of beardeds over the past years (yeas thousands) and am confident that Tom and Jackie Vandiver are nott he cause of you dragon's dark coloring. It sounds like they offered you a fair alternative and you rejected them. For anyone else, I will put my name on the line and say that you will be happy dealing with the Vandivers. |