More Fuel For The FIRE!!

Author Subject: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
Mercer, Don Mercer Posted At 16:29:06 07/08/2001
Well, I've enjoyed sitting back and watching (bitting my tongue too) the circus below take place, but it is time for me to make one last post. For those not familiar with this, read below, you'll find it.
Mr Lahitte, you publicaly admitted to NOT being home for a shipment of snakes that you KNEW were to arrive BY 12 NOON. It was also proven that YOU said a cold pack would NOT be needed. You also stated that the snakes SAT at your door step in 90+ heat for more than 1 hour. If they only sat for an hour, why did it take you six hours to notify me? You claim the snakes suffocated, from my alleged, poor packaging. Well it was stated MANY times by several different people that suffocation was not possible. Well, I took it one step further.
At 2pm on Friday 7/6, I placed a hatchling corn, 4 days old, in a sealed deli cup, with NO holes and placed it in my snake room. Room temp is a constant 83 degrees. I have watched this snake closely, but have not interfered in anyway. At 2pm today, Sunday 7/8 the snake was removed from the deli cup, and guess what? Well golly be, the snake is STILL alive!! 48 hours WITHOUT new air, and snake is fine! Nobody has to believe this from somebody as awful as me, so try this test for yourself. Well, I proved to myself, what others have told you, the snakes died from your negligence.
I should stop now, but I'm on a roll. Mr Lahitte you claim to have instant photos of the deseased snakes that you will snail mail to Mr Oakley. Why would you send them to him? I should be the one to see them.(not that it will change anything, well we'd ALL know that the snakes really did die) You say you work at a University. Do they not have scanners so you can email pics to me right away? Strange, very strange. You also stated you would send the a dead snake in the deli cup to whomever wanted one. What is that going to prove? Your sad suffocation case has been shot down. BANG!!
Unlike my 3 year old, you do not answer questions when asked the first, second, or third time for that matter. Why the constant beating around the bush? If a breeder states on his/her webpage that they are not responcable for packages left on the doorstep of the buyer when they are not home to receive it, does this mean they are not "professional"? You have avoided this question of Mr Oakley many times. Well no need to answer it. (I hate to drag others into this, but I must prove my point) The WEBMASTER of this site, states on his page, for the whole world to see, that if you are not home to accept a package that you KNEW was coming, and the snakes arrive dead, that HE will not be at fault, the BUYER is the one at fault! BANG!!! once again.
As for you not taking this any farther, I have sent Pay Pal all my email PROOF of your negligence, since you filed a claim with them to get your money back. I eagerly await anything else you throw my way.
Well, in closing Id like to say thank you to everbody for all the laughs, it has been very entertaining. I tried my best to act more professional in this post, for all the "sensative" people out there. (How do you survive in the real world?). I'd like to thank all my "puppets" as Mr Lahitte called them, who sided with me. (especially you, Sunshine!) Well, ta ta for now.

The New Professional,
Don Mercer
carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5497.html Posted At 18:38:16 07/08/2001

Don Mercer. Firts, You know I'm not home, because we are e-mailing each other from my office e-mail sine early in the morning that day, but Like a bad dad my 3 little kids are home along ,RIGHT?.. My wife is at home with my kids.
Like I say before I have instant pictures, I ask any one interested to e-mail me the address and I will send them . NO ANSWER BACK.

Karen Clegg Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5498.html Posted At 19:40:40 07/08/2001

I'm very interested to see the pictures!!!
Walter Hudson Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5516.html Posted At 02:40:06 07/09/2001

Thanks Don for giving your side! That's what most of us wanted a clean and professional explanation. Very comprehensive ;)! ...two thumbs up... ******Case Closed*****
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5521.html Posted At 07:15:33 07/09/2001

Les put more fuel : I contact Airborne express and this is the answer:
Matthew Fowler [Matthew.Fowler@airborne.com]
Thank you for contacting Airborne. I should be able to adjust the shipping charges from being billed to you. However, I must wait for this shipment to go through the billing cycle for I can adjust it. If/when you receive an invoice on this shipment, simply email me back again with the invoice number and I will process a request to have the charged dropped.
Please accept my sincere apologies for the disappointment you have experienced with this incident. Please believe this is not indicative of the type of service we regularly provide our customers. I will ensure that this information is brought to the attention of the appropriate parties .
Roger Jolly Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5525.html Posted At 08:47:25 07/09/2001

So Carlos, what exactly did you say to Airborne Express when you contacted them? You were upset with their service because the snakes they delivered to you were dead when you got them? That would be just great. Everyone is having enough troubles shipping their live reptiles and now you are going to go and put yet another incident on the pile of reasons why they shouldn't accept these types of shipments. Way to go.

What happened to your 'for the herp community' statement?
Carlos lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5527.html Posted At 11:09:02 07/09/2001

To all of you. I read from the WEBMASTER Any NEW thread opened to continue the flame war will be deleted as quickly as I see it, but they star a new one, if Don Mercer have the opportunity to disclose his "test" I have the opportunity to disclose all the advises and opinions what I have:

I have 3 DVM opinions. All of them agree in the following :
Any NEW BORN SNAKE shipped in the same conditions that my snakes are shipped have an 85% or more provability of arrive dead. A cricket box don’t protect the snakes again the SUMMER heat in the trip. (The temperature in a shipping truck can be 10-15 degrees higher that the outside). What is different if they are shipped in an insulated box what is the regulations for any airline what accept LIVE REPTAILS.
According to the regulations of Airborne Express any Live cargo have to be marked out side the Box ”LIVE CARGO OR LIVE ANIMALS” Not FRAGILE like this one is marked. That make a big difference in the way the box is handled.
Don Mercer One last time....
5528.html Posted At 11:28:48 07/09/2001

Here we go again! Keep trying Carlos, the type of box has nothing to do with this. What summer heat? Snakes were picked up from me late afternoon and traveled at night. So what heat? You must mean the heat they DIED in sitting on your doorstep. That box could have had 6 inches of styro, and the same thing would have happened. Nice try, you and your DVM friends are wrong. Now if you had informed me of the CORRECT weather, like I requested, a cold pack would have been added. Also, all Airbornes trucks ARE air conditioned, sooooo.....BANG, shot down again. Please just stop, for your own sake. Your reasons for why these innocent snakes perished keeps changing and only makes you look a fool. Suffocation, no holes, closed holes, wrong box, give it up! I am finished with this, truth has been told, I am....

The reformed professioal,
Don Mercer
Webmaster Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5531.html Posted At 11:47:12 07/09/2001

Yes, I did say that, Carlos, but since Don Mercer added new information and was posting in his own defense, I had no choice but to allow the message to stand. If it had just been a rehash of previous information, it would have been deleted.

But it is now beginning to devolve into another flame war here as well, and the same old information is just being hashed over again.

So again I ask you all to only post NEW information, not post and old message a different way or with different wording, thinking everyone just doesn't understand your position. The positions are pretty clear here as they stand.

I don't see any reason at all why Carlos and Don cannot continue this via email, and if something gets resolved it can be posted here. Otherwise we all don't need to be involved nor witnesses to the continuing discussions between you two.
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5532.html Posted At 11:52:50 07/09/2001

That is OK with me.
Buegrass Herp - Kris Mays Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5536.html Posted At 14:16:04 07/09/2001

It seems to me that all this could have been avoided if a signature had been required. The temperature at the destination could have been easily acquired online and an insulated box is always a requirement during the summer months. Many areas the temperature is already at 90 by noon and riding in the back of a tin box on the way to the house doesn't help. I think there were errors on both parts and at least a 50% reimbursal is in order. Personally, I would either replace the animals or reimburse the customer.

Just me .02...
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5547.html Posted At 18:38:13 07/09/2001

Ok Guys, I waiting to get the track # for the other shipment That day to finalize this case, from the beginning I tell to all of you that my wife is at home that day with my kids, No body believe me, Now let see if all of you are impartial or not, check by your self this track # from UPS 1z560x010110535593. My wife sign on this one around 10.00 AM on July 3, 2001. I hope all that fictitious theory about NO BODY IS AT HOME TO RECEIVE THE SNAKES Will is clarified. If any of you can be Honest and Fair let me know.
I don't bring this before because I don't have the track # to verified the Delivery Time.
No one believe from the beginning. And I hope like I say from the beginning all you understand that IS NOT MY FAULT>
Karen Clegg Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5552.html Posted At 19:49:20 07/09/2001

Carlos,

I thought you said the snakes Don shipped to you were shipped Airborne? What's this about UPS?
carlos lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5553.html Posted At 19:53:27 07/09/2001

Karen. Do you know how to read?
Karen Clegg Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5554.html Posted At 20:04:41 07/09/2001

What does any of this UPS crap have to do with Airborne is what my question is? It has nothing to do with your Airborne delivery, and you yourself said that it sat on your front porch, so maybe YOU can't keep your lies straight.
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5555.html Posted At 20:08:43 07/09/2001

The Crap is what you have in your head.I don't going to loss my time answering your questions, If you can't read and undestand that is not my problem. Puppet?
Karen Clegg Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5559.html Posted At 20:40:25 07/09/2001

That's what I thought Carlos, you make no sense. What does a UPS delivery at ten have to do with an Airborne delivery? It doesn't prove that someone was home to accept the delivery... now stop beating around the bush. I hope this thread helps you understand my words in the others.
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5562.html Posted At 20:55:09 07/09/2001

Karen, I think a puppet don't have a brain. Why you don't read Don theory again and them make the questions.
Willy McGeek Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5564.html Posted At 21:02:06 07/09/2001

Hey Carlos, at least if you cant quit lying, learn how to speak english.
Knolage is power my frenned.
Ritchie Luna Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5568.html Posted At 21:22:38 07/09/2001

Carlos.....Karen is not being a puppet. If you read your old post it says that your wife found the snakes on the porch.
Here I will paste your message for you

"For your information my wife are at home with my kids, she find the snakes at our door at 11.20 AM.That is not a long time if the snakes are delivered at 10.15 AM . Like I say before they died suffocated, they can breath, all the holes are closed."

Now, are you talking about two shipments you received on the same day? Are you comparing the shipments? Did you receive one by ups and one by airborne?

As we have already told you. Those snakes did not die of suffocation. I have shipped 12 times and only put holes twice. They died of heat. That is why they were stinky as soon as you oppened them.

I thought we already explained this to you.

Fine your wife was at home. We believe you. And she signed for a package at ten. Did she receive the other package though. Did she sign for the one she found at 11:20. Okay you had snakes you signed for at ten. Did those snakes live? We all know the one you found at 11:20 were dead. This just shows you that if someone would have signed for the snakes...they would have lived.

Are you twlking about two different shipments?
carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5570.html Posted At 21:43:12 07/09/2001

Is not my fault if they left the package at my door without ring the bell.UPS ring the bell and the package are signed.
Karen Clegg Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5574.html Posted At 22:08:58 07/09/2001

how do WE know that they didn't ring the bell?
Jeff Hardwick Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5577.html Posted At 22:46:46 07/09/2001

Mom always said "don't get involved" but also said, "stand up for what's right". With ambivalence, I'll have to defend Carlos with a simple fact: I shipped, and he received a group of Brooksi from me on the exact same day as the other dead snakes.
It is possible that the dead snakes sat on the doorstep but I've always assumed that any shipment will be put to the test and this one received my usual large shipping box, 2 air holes, 1&1/2 inch styrfoam pack, screw top plastic btls (1 pint capacity)with a single snake in each, airholes in btls and shredded loose newspaper holding everything together. All seams were carefully taped. Carlos received 2 bouncing Brooksi, I got a happy customer and UPS scored a point from me again. Jeff
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5579.html Posted At 23:16:27 07/09/2001

Jeff, Thank you. That is what a real man do : say the truth.
Webmaster Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5580.html Posted At 23:23:22 07/09/2001

Sheesh! I keep expecting Perry Mason to walk onto the set here!

Between the jeremy rennison thread and this one, I'm beginning to think I have stumbled into the twilight zone.

Just keep the flames out of the messages, please.
Mark Kennedy Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5583.html Posted At 00:16:59 07/10/2001

I have to agree with Jeff, thats the only way to ship a live reptile, especially if you care about your animals. The styrofoam no doubt protects against the elements. A cricket box lets the heat in the sides where styrofoam would not. But thats just common sense. Bushherp sells proper shipping boxes, $8.95
each.
Brian Oakley Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5595.html Posted At 09:59:50 07/10/2001

FOLKS, FOLKS, FOLKS,

One might agree that the snakes COULD HAVE been shipped better. One could agree that Carlos COULD HAVE answered the question "what are the temps?". He answered by saying "it is not too hot and it is cloudy."

You see, we are now here on Tuesday, one week LATER. The fact STILL remains that the snakes are dead. The fact STILL remains that NOBODY answered the door when Airborne came. Carlos has admitted that too. Unless you all know something that I do not, the outcome will not change.

Carlos, ONE LAST QUESTION and as long as you answer the question I will do my best not to post on these threads any more. The catch is, Carlos, you have to answer the question, not a question you think I might be asking. Ok here it is:

You have stated in email and on here that you found the snakes AROUND 11 am. If that is the case and they DID come in dead, why did you not email Don IMMEDIATELY and tell him they were dead?
You see folks, this is where something odd has occured. The buyer emails someone saying that they were received around 11am, but does not email the seller for another SIX HOURS to let him know they are/were dead?

SILLY, SILLY, SILLY.

PLEASE answer the question,
Brian Oakley
Don Mercer Re: More Fuel For The FIRE
5596.html Posted At 10:13:25 07/10/2001

I said I would not reply anymore but, I have one last thing to say; What would happen to ANY perishable item if you left it in a styro cooler for an hour plus, in 90+ heat? IT WOULD SPOIL!! DUH!!! Styro does not prevent a damn thing WITHOUT cold, or heat for that matter. Come on, try using a little common sence. It was already mentioned several times that Mr Lahitte said that a cold pack would NOT be needed so one was not used. Guess I will have to do another "test" to shoot this theory down. Results will be posted tonight.
Carlos, you stated yourself that the flaps on the cricket box were closed. So in other words, the box was just another normal box with NO holes. Not that it makes a bit of difference. Everybody needs to get the FACTS straight before they post here. They have been stated over and over and over. Styro, wrong box, IT MAKES NOOOOOOOOO DIFFERENCE!!!!!!! This is just 2 FUN!

The Scientific,
Don Mercer
Carlos Lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5598.html Posted At 10:24:49 07/10/2001

Brian, How I can check the snakes at 11.00 AM if I'm in my office working like I'm state before. My wife get the snakes inside but she never open any box what have snakes . Don Mercer know I'm in the office we e-mail each other that morning about future deals.The public defender is back loosing the case.Now who is beating around the bush ?
Carlos lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5599.html Posted At 10:33:58 07/10/2001

Don, Where I'm sate that the flaps on the cricket box were closed ? I allway say the holes in the containers are close. That is complete different .
Bluegrass Herp - Kris Mays Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5600.html Posted At 10:43:00 07/10/2001

Again, it takes two seconds to mark the box to require a signature and costs nothing. If a signature were required then there would be no question whether the bell were rang or not.

Why not just compromise? Carlos has said that Airborne is reimbursing the shipping charges. With that in mind why not reimburse at least 50% of his money. I don't think anyone on this forum can say that he is TOTALLY at fault.

No matter how you look at it the shipping box was negligent. Even importers use styro-foam lined boxes. Whether you use a heat pack in the winter or a cold pack in the summer, the lining is still going to keep the interior temperature more stable.

Everyone keeps commenting on the airholes not being present. Let's look at that for a moment. I will agree that an animal can survive without the airholes in a 75 degree room. Try heating the containers up to 90 and see what happens. I think the animals were probably poached. Without ventilation in the containers, there was no way for the heat to dissipate once they were overheated. If styro-foam were used it would have helped prevent this, but maybe not entirely.

Bottom line: The animals should have been shipped in a styro and holes should have been in the containers. The package should have been SIGNED for. None of the above were the SINGLE factor for the outcome, but together probably caused the death of the animals.

I don't think we're talking about an albino red blood python here, so why not reimburse 50% and call it quits.

I reimbursed a customer 50% of the shipping cost when the shipping agent left a digit out of the address. It wasn't my fault, but I wanted the customer to be 100% satisfied. This saga is insane and could be easily remedied. If I had the same animals Carlos ordered I'd ship them to him just to end this! I think it's awful that he ordered animals, paid shipping, and has absolutely nothing to show for it. This isn't all his fault and using his communication skills against him is petty and wrong. He is the one that people should be taking up for in this matter.

Let me, for the record, say I don't know Carlos and have never spoken to him. All my opinions are derived from the posts relating to this incident. Also, I have nothing against Don Mercer and don't want anything I've stated above to be taken as a shot at him or his business.

Just my .02...Again... :-)

Kris
Brian Oakley Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5602.html Posted At 11:03:07 07/10/2001

Carlos,
why don't you get off this "public defender" bandwagon. That is the siliest thing I have ever heard. Please, come up with something more inteligent than that. I have spoke to you in a polite manner since day one, so enough of the childish comments....ok?
As far as you being at work, I will reply like this. I have my wife stay home for me at times I cannot be there to receive a package. I also have her open the box to make sure they are ok. I as the receiver owe that to MYSELF at least to make sure they are ok at the TIME OF DELIVERY.

B Oakley
Carlos lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5603.html Posted At 11:06:31 07/10/2001

Brian, I'm dont do that to my wife, some times when I open a box the snake is out of the container. Sorry try again.
Don Mercer Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5604.html Posted At 11:23:38 07/10/2001

Kris,
It has been stated that holes were in the deli cups. I proved that snakes can sit in an AIRTIGHT conatiner for 48 hours at 83 degrees and still survive. Really sit down and think about this. What would styro do? Styro is an INSULATION, it traps cold or heat. If you take a styro box that was at 80 degrees and set this box in 92 degree heat what will happen? The exterior of the box will hit 92 almost immediatly. The interior will take longer, but how long? I will have an answer to this by evening. Once that interior temp reaches 92 it is trapped. And if anything, the temp inside will INCREASE. And guess what? You put a few snakes in deli cups into the scenerio and they will cook fast, real fast.
In all honesty I would have done something for Mr Lahitte, what I'm not sure. But when you have somebody demanding there money back and threatening to contact all the involved parties, or even ones not involved, (Airborne, Pay Pal, this Board and even Animal Cruelty) BEFORE I ever insulted him on this Board, it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth. If Mr Lahitte had not jumped the gun, and would accept SOME of the blame instead of putting the blame solely on others, things would have turned out MUCH different.

Don

brian oakley Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5606.html Posted At 11:37:25 07/10/2001

Ok, Carlos, here is my last try.

If you OR someone else cannot be HOME and OPEN THE BOX to make sure EVERYTHING IS OK, then maybe you should find something else to do with your spare time besides owning snakes..........PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!

You have more excuses than I thought existed.
You are a waste of time when it comes to this Carlos. No that is not disrespectful, it is an opinion I have come up with after reading your MANY excuses.

B Oakley
carlos lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5611.html Posted At 12:19:01 07/10/2001

Mr. mercer, always the same answer : If I'm don't ask for my rigths you Blablabla. Be more professional or you will be history. I tell you you start whit the insults, them you get what you ask for.
Carlos lahitte Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5613.html Posted At 12:33:13 07/10/2001

Brian, You know that to do with your last try? Right?
brian Oakley Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5614.html Posted At 12:52:37 07/10/2001

Yes, I do know what I can do with my last try. MAKE SURE YOU APPLY IT TO YOUR EVERY DAY LIFE!

I will be parting ways with this thread seeing how I could come back next year and Carlos will still be arguing it, Don will still be Don, and I really will not give a shit any more then than I do now because it does not involve me anyway.

I just thought that MAYBE talking to someone in a sivilized manner MIGHT make them realize they could have helped the situation. I suppose in this case it does not apply.

Oakley
Don Mercer Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5615.html Posted At 12:56:07 07/10/2001

Carlos,
I have NOOOOO clue to what you just tried to say. Please, lets just end this. It is not, and will not solve a thing.
Webmaster Re: More Fuel For The FIRE!!
5619.html Posted At 14:05:39 07/10/2001

OK. This game is over with. This thread is now closed and ANY new threads opened, no matter what the content, concerning this issue will be deleted. Talk to each other via private means and put this issue to rest.

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