Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)

Author Subject: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net Posted At 14:49:19 07/17/2001




This post contains facts about what I feel to be an injustice



This post contains facts about what I feel to be an injustice. I would like the thoughts of this forum regarding policies enforced by www.kingsnake.com involving the decision to restrict posting anything containing the name www.redtailboa.net. Here is the whole story.



www.redtailboa.net is a young site that is completely free of charge to all users. At its initial inception, the webmaster and owner, Shane Jordan (called Natas online), inquired about getting a link or an advertisement on kingsnake. He was summarily denied. Kingsnake.com claimed that this was because Redtailboa.net is a competing site. I have yet to get an explanation that satisfies me about how Redtailboa.net is in competition. In ignorance to the rules, Shane posted a thread on the Boa Forum at Kingsnake.com asking for feedback on his site. I myself went to the site at that time and decided that I liked it so much that I wanted to be an admin. After several posts on the kingsnake.com forum, we were warned to stop making posts that "Shared no new information and just said 'come see our site'." Shortly thereafter, any post involving redtailboa.net was banned. After clarifying this with Jeff Barranger, the owner of Kingsnake.com, those types of posts did stop and we were again allowed to post on kingsnake.com. I was eventually even warned that the articles that I write on redtailboa.net could not be linked to. I mistakenly thought that this would be viewed as "new information" and I simply wanted to share my work with others in the herp community. This appears to fall under a "come see my site" post under their terms of service so I stopped that too. I had thought for a time that this would be the end of our troubles and I bit my tongue every time I saw another site or person posting to point out some new feature of their site or some new article that was there.



I do not know what led Jeff to decide to ban us again. I have my suspicions, but this is the place for facts. The fact is that now Kingsnake.com is discriminating against all members of www.redtailboa.net who attempt to us an "@redtailboa.net" email address or post pictures hosted on Redtailboa.net's free Picture Post. Jordan Russell was not allowed to post advertisements on Kingsnake.com's classified section because his site is hosted for free on redtailboa.net. He has since moved his site to another place.



In anticipation of being flamed for this, I do understand that Jeff Barranger has the right to do business however and with whomever he wants. When the problem only involved Shane and myself, I was content to not bring it up. This is no longer the case. We held a user's meeting in chat last night and I was nominated to advocate in this situation. The best I can do is appeal to Jeff's good nature and hope he chooses to lift this restriction. I wanted to post this here as neutral ground so that Jeff does not have to feel like I am attacking him on his own turf nor does he have to come to our forum to discuss it. Since this is a public issue, it should be handled in a public forum.



Your Comments and opinions on this matter would be appreciated.


-Donnie Smith, Your Sick Uncle Morti.


www.redtailboa.net




Michael Mastison Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5921.html Posted At 15:04:14 07/17/2001
Hello Donnie, Well, I can understand your confusion and frustration. Wwhat Jeff Barranger is doing to you is basically selective discrimination. Reason? Money. Plain and simple. You have to remember how much money Jeff makes every year since he has opened kingsnake.com. Any "threat" tto his site is a threat to his pocketbook. I wouldn't hold my breath on him letting you post again, or your memebers for that matter. The pricees they charge on kingnsnake and the ever changing rules have kept a lot of herpers from posting anything there. I for one am heading over to redtail right after this post to check it out. I wish you the best of luck with this problem.MM
William Montanez Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5923.html Posted At 16:25:17 07/17/2001
We are supposed to be here to unite as herp enthusiast! We share information, experiences, advise, and a serivice to people who are new to/ or want to own reptiles and amphibians. I think its bad enough that we have fear and ignorance against us, but now we have to deal with the greed too! Fact: those of us on www.redtailboa.net search for info, advice, and possible buisness opportunity other places INCLUDING kingsnake.com
I honestly dont see how or why this site is "competition" for kingsnake.com. Redtail is a friendly site where people take the time out to help others who are new to this, in a polite way. Its no wonder why people want to join! Its also free, Mr. Jordan is not making any money on this site. When ever some one asks to be directed some where for info and/ or purchases- I direct them to redtailboa, and kingsnake! We are supposed to be here to help one another out. i am always on kingsnake.com, redtailboa.net, as well as a bunch of others. I have had the good fortune to hook up with some awesome breeders through kingsnake. I want to keep going there, but if i'm banned so be it. You lose out on your money, business opportunity, and word of mouth advertising! This is growing and growing, we all have room and the right to be here. Nobody is knocking or stealing business from kingsnake! As a matter of fact we are trying to help out each other! Its your choice

William Montanez
cb76
John Staursky Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5929.html Posted At 18:06:47 07/17/2001
Donnie,
Jeff Barrenger has banned me from his site stating in e-mails that I have committed fraud. He said he got too many complaints about me and canceled my classified account. I called him on the phone and he was very immature and unprofessional. He told me to contact his attorney for any further discussion and hung up on me. I called several times and left messages and nobody would ever call back. He told me I was threatening his business also because I said on another forum (Ralph Davis' forum) That "I didn't care if he shut his whole damn site down" I was replying with my opinion to people blaming me for him shutting down his forums.
I asked him what people complained about and he couldn't tell me or show me anything... so as far as the three strikes your out rule I was never given any names or information about who was upset with me or why, and was not given any chance to fix any problems if there were any.
I had numerous references e-mail and call him saying nothing but the truth of how our deals went, all VERY good and professional.
The above statements are FACTS the following statements are my opinions..
In my opinion, Jeff Barringer feels threatened by redtailboa.net and I think he should be. I also feel that his dot com company is not very profitable and he is very frustrated and angry about it because I'm sure he puts a lot of time into it. I live about a half hour from where kingsnake.com is located in Austin Texas and you can ask anyone around here about dot com companies, they come and go...
You can't be profitable if you let your personal dislikes interfere with a potential profit... I was gearing up to buy banners, webhosting and would have paid $200 a year for a classified account if it went up to that. But in my opinion, Jeff Barringer just personally doesn't like me and my opinions and he feels powerful by banning me from his site so therfore he loses the money I would have spent for years to come along with the clientel that would go looking for my ads and web site because they were happy with my services and products... multiply this scenario by a few more potential customers and there ya go.. no more dot com site, it's simple business.
In my opinion, I agree with you about feeling discriminated against as I do also. But in my opinion, I don't think Jeff Barringer will be able to run kingsnake.com for too much longer, he's just not really a businessman in my opinion, just an alterna breeder who happened to have a web site that got popular.
Also.. as for me, people will probably post here saying I am this and I am that, but use your own judgement. I play around on the internet and the forums and all but when it comes to real life and things like this I am very knowledgable, trust me :)
John Staursky
pugmantx@cs.com
Austin Texas
Ciro Spina Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5937.html Posted At 20:58:17 07/17/2001
I decided to go to your site to see what all the fuss was about. I actually kind of felt bad that you and your users were banned from kingsnake for sharing your views. However, I saw something on your site and quickly changed my mind. I am now glad you were banned.

Where do you get your reptiles from? Pet shops (Say it ain't so!). Ring a bell? Take a look at this Board of Inquiry. How many on here are pet stores? How many are breeders or hobbyists selling animals? In no way am I saying pet stores are better. I would never put down a person or their business unless I had a personal dealing with them that went bad. You are making the assumption that all pet stores are bad because of some bad apples. If we employed that philosophy, someone could say all breeders or hobbyists are bad, couldn't they?

I have seen "pet shop" horror stories on lots of forums and usually ignore them, most of the time they are posted by little children saying they saw a water bowl with two crickets in it and so forth. I know this is off the topic, but I know I will never visit your site again. I hope no other "pet stores" visit your site either.

Ciro Spina
Bryan Zigler Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5938.html Posted At 21:14:43 07/17/2001
Ciro, I'm a regular on redtailboa.net, and to be honest with you most of the regulars there rarely buy anything from pet stores. I have not yet bought one herp from a pet store because they, as well as I know that there are good pet shops and bad pet shops. One, the people who do get herps from pet stores are either uneducated newbies who think this is their only option. Two, the herps that the regulars do get from pet shops are more often than not rescues in poor shape, I'm sorry to say. Many that I know will not pay money for any supplies, much less a herp from a store that takes poor care of their herps. If we do choose to buy one, it is usually from a reputable pet store or one that takes quality care of their herps.

Bryan Zigler
Jeff Barringer Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5939.html Posted At 21:24:45 07/17/2001
First let me correct a few "facts".

#1 Redtailboa.net is a commercial entity and business
that offers advertising services and hosting services
for the reptile industry.

#2 kingsnake.com does not, nor has it ever, allowed the advertising of any web sites, products, or services in its
forums, unless a business or individual pays for those
services to help support the cost of maintaining the forums
and then its in the form of banner advertising.

#3 kingsnake.com does not allow other businesses whose primary businessesdirectly compete with its primary business (hosting services, classified ads, and banner advertising)
to advertise their services on our system.

#4 We do not add blocks and filters against people and web sites
because we don't like them, but because they have violated our sites terms of service, usually more than once.

That said...

We were approached by redtailboa.net about their purchasing advertising months ago. We reviewed their site and
determined that they were directly competing with 2 of
our 3 primary business models. We informed them that
we could not sell them advertising because of this conflict,
something we have had to tell a number of businesses,
and to do so would mean we would have to allow all our
competition to also advertise.

Shortly afterwards we began receiving complaints that
redtailboa.net was posting advertisements and announcements
in our message board system, specifically in our boa forums.
This being a violation of our posted Terms of Service,terms
in place and well known for many years, we then "blocked"
the ability to post their web site addresses.

Shortly afterwards we were contacted by telephone by someone
at redtailboa.net. We informed them of the reason we applied
block. After much conversation It was agreed that they could
post announcements about specific events like interviews and chats but that that was it. Any other announcements would be
construed as commercial advertising and would cause the blocks to be reapplied. We told them that they could continue to
participate in our site and that they could include their site URL in those posts, as long as they weren't posting announcements in violation of our terms.

Three weeks ago, while removing posts in the boa forum, I found
several posts announcing new "features" at the redtailboa.net
site. These weren't event annoucements, nor were they posts
as part of regular conversation, they were advertisements
for their site, plainly against both the posted rules AND
our verbal agreement. Once again we applied the block, and now we are here.

Now are we discriminating against them? No. We are applying a site policy that we have applied many many times.

Are they being singled out? No. Their are a number of sites that have repeatedly violated our site policys and have had the same measures applied.

Do we allow the posting of their URL anymore. No. We allow the posting of many other URLs of sites that have competeing services, including this one (Herpwantads.com) Why? Because
Rich didn't come to our web site and start posting advertisements in violation of our terms of service.
Redtailboa.net did. More than once.

Now I am all for competition. I have been competeing with the Herp Mall and the Reptile Mall for years now, and many other sites that are much larger than Redtailboa.net. Their sites arent blocked, nor did I directly contact their users and advertisers, nor did I post "announcements" to their message
boards to get people to come to kingsnake.com. I encourage competition, and I for one would like to see more competition.
But if you decide to be that competition, don't expect to
build your business with my resources.

I would like to ask NATAS and Morti and
everyone involved in Redtailboa.net the following....

#1 Where did you and your staff first meet? If it wasn't prior
to kingsnake, then I would hazard a guess and say it was in our forum?

#2 Exactly where is kingsnake.com ranked in your list of referring sites and what percentage of your traffic does that account for?

#3 How much have you paid to get that traffic?

As I said I have no problem with competition, just don't
exepect to utilize my businesses assets to do it.
LORI KEHOE Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5943.html Posted At 22:01:34 07/17/2001
CIRO;
From what I am preceiving from your statement here, you get the assumption that ALL of us over at REDTAILBOA.NET are saying that petstores are no good AND therefore should not be supported by the purchase of reptile stock etc from their business. I think you have an error in your interpretation of our post[s] on site. For starters when one reads a post, he/she should read ALL the threads associated with that post to get the complete story in order to make such a determination. Obviously you have failed tyo do such. So let me take the time to point out what exactly our "philosophy" per say of the majority of our users and administrators is.
** "WE" do NOT feel that ALL petshops are "BAD" or unworthy of
being a valid source for such items as reptiles or related
supplies.
** MANY of the "PET STORE" related posts on our forums are
actually "FIRST HAND" accountings of what was "PERSONALLY"
seen/found by the poster upon their visit to the PET STORE.
** MOST if not ALL of such posts are an "OUTCRY" from a
concerned herper asking for guidance on "HOW TO CHANGE"
the conditions which "APPALLLED" them in the first place.
** ALL such posts receive "SUPPORT" from other members on
the subject/issue at hand.
** The members on our site try their hardest to "EDUCATE"
any/all pet store personnel that will listen to us in
regards to such "mistakes" as keeping a Ball Python in
a cage at temps of 90 degrees and 90% humidity. EDUCATION
is the key here for a HEALTHY & HAPPY" life for the herps.
** "SOMETIMES" , NO MATTER WHAT we as concerned herpers for
HEALTH & WELFARE of an animal, specifically reptiles in
this case, do or cause to be done, can change the
inapropriate husbandry tactics or lack of reptile keeping
knowledge of some PET STORES. NO MATTER HOW HARD WE TRY!
** Because "WE" have seen an abundance of such happening in the
reptiles being housed at PET STORES "WE" are presently
working on a news article in relation to such. Which will
hopefully help to "MAKE CHANGES FOR THE BETTER IN THE LIVES
OF REPTILES".
** As for the comment like "SAY IT AIN'T SO!" ..that comes from
a horrified herp keeper who "feels" for the animals and
the condition which they are being kept in.
OH..AND CIRO...I DO support reptile warehouses, pet stores, breeders and such. My reptiles have come from many different sources. As for the Pet Store issues, IF I come across "BAD" husbandry at one..the FIRST thing I do is try to educate the staff, manager or owner of the shop in their mistakes in husbandry of reptiles.
OUR PHILOSOPHY IS NOT THAT ALL PET STORES ARE BAD, YOU HAVE MISQUOTED "US".
LORI
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5948.html Posted At 22:12:46 07/17/2001
JeffB: Thanks for responding!

Excuse this long post...but I am going to quote Jeff alot here!

"#1 Redtailboa.net is a commercial entity and business
that offers advertising services and hosting services
for the reptile industry"

Jeff you are correct in that we offer banner advertising. But if you read the information on our adds you will see that we also do banner trades. I have yet to have one client that pays for banner advertsing. (for refrence email Bob Clark, Fauna Magazine, and the others.

Yes we do site hosting....want to know how much we charge? Nothing...go ahead...email Jordan Russell or lizardlake.com.

Yes we have a classified section. This is a free service that we do. I do not charge users for this. Once again go to the site and email the people that have the classified for there herps up!

So that should sum up the point you make on us being a commercial website.

"#2 kingsnake.com does not, nor has it ever, allowed the advertising of any web sites, products, or services in its
forums, unless a business or individual pays for those
services to help support the cost of maintaining the forums
and then its in the form of banner advertising"

More power to you. If I ran a "Commercial Website I would prolly also do the same"

"#3 kingsnake.com does not allow other businesses whose primary businessesdirectly compete with its primary business (hosting services, classified ads, and banner advertising)
to advertise their services on our system. "

Ok so you basically told Jordan Russell that because his website is hosted by us for FREE that he can not post links to your site. If you really want to run your business this way than thats fine...but man your in for a big suprise if you keep that up. JeffB take not here that all my services are FREE!

"#4 We do not add blocks and filters against people and web sites because we don't like them, but because they have violated our sites terms of service, usually more than once"

Understandable. But hopefully we can clear all of this up :)

"We were approached by redtailboa.net about their purchasing advertising months ago. We reviewed their site and
determined that they were directly competing with 2 of
our 3 primary business models. We informed them that
we could not sell them advertising because of this conflict,
something we have had to tell a number of businesses,
and to do so would mean we would have to allow all our
competition to also advertise."

Thats your decision. But you should also recall that when I opened up my site I did not offer Hosting, banner advertsing or classifieds. Did you refuse to take my business because you saw it as a threat to Kingsnake.com? I hope not because we do not want to take away from kingsnake.com at all. We want to help add to your site by maintaing a non-commercial organization. I have the domains redtailboa.net (meaning a network...a network full of people) and .org (for organization...meaning non-profit for the community). So please do not feel threatened by us.

"Three weeks ago, while removing posts in the boa forum, I found
several posts announcing new "features" at the redtailboa.net
site. These weren't event annoucements, nor were they posts
as part of regular conversation, they were advertisements
for their site, plainly against both the posted rules AND
our verbal agreement. Once again we applied the block, and now we are here."

The new features you are probally refering to are caresheets and writeups on boa morphs/genetics. How is this commercial...can you please provide the proof that this was commercial and out of the verbal agreement? If they were post that are for commercial means then they did not come from me or morti...I assure you that. Heck our photo gallery is even free.

Now to answer your questions Jeff!

"#1 Where did you and your staff first meet? If it wasn't prior
to kingsnake, then I would hazard a guess and say it was in our forum?"

Search engines are your friends Jeff. Check this out :
http://redtailboa.net/crawler.php
That is every article I have ever created or my free staff has created. Each one of those links gets indexed. Go to any search engine and type : Redtailboa we are at the top. I put alot of work into the sites code to make it search engine friendly. So to answer the question...I did get a few members come over from kingsnake.com...I can't deny that :) But most of our members (I would say <75% are newbies that see us on search engines.

"2 Exactly where is kingsnake.com ranked in your list of referring sites and what percentage of your traffic does that account for?"

You would be suprised. I log this and rotate it after every 1000 referers. I almost never see Kingsnake.com in there...but yes it does show up from time to time. I would say probally less than 2% from Kingsnake. My number one referers right now are:
www.bobclark.com
yahoo.com
reptiletopsites.com
boa-constrictor.com
and other search engines...kingsnake.com is not even in the top 10% here.

"#3 How much have you paid to get that traffic?"

You should really re-word this question because it really hits me hard. Here is how you should phrase it. #3 How much have you lost to get that traffic? Do you mean how much have I made from the traffic? If so..none...I actually loose alot of money per month to keep the site alive. I have made no money what so ever for my site and I do have to pay for my bandwidth. If you mean did I pay someone off for this. No...I don't even no where to start to do that other than paying for advertsing. The only money that is involved is a donation. The total for this is $40.50 :) That basically paid for a nothing. So please do not disrespect me there. I put alot of coding time and money into my site and I do not and never intend to make money off of Redtailboa.net as a community. When I get my breeding projects going I will post them on my site and yours if you allow me....but thats a totally different business. My site is not a business...its a org.

Anyway I hope this clears up something for you Jeff and anyone else wondering about the war.

Jeff lets settle this now and stop the flame troll wars. This is lame and its taking away time from bettering our sites. Please get it through your head that I am and never will be a commercial site.

I am willing to donate every single article, and interview to your site to help you drive more traffic. I am willing to donate a ton of my free time to help you out for free. I just want whats best for the herp community. Also Jeff I am willing to review your upcoming sites with good reviews if there worthy!! So please understand me and my admins. I am trying to take and offer peace to you. I can't watch everbody at once..so if any of my members have made you mad take it to them...not me and my site!

Shane Jordan
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5950.html Posted At 22:20:39 07/17/2001
Haha almost forgot to mention this:
I Shane Jordan am the person who wrote the code for redtailboa.net and I am the "Owner of the site". I am also known as Natas at the site. And no Natas does not mean Satan backwards to me...I have used that name since the BBS days because I was a big fan of "Natas" the skater in the late 80's :) Also please note that I am a terrible speller...I never claimed to be a english major :)
Ciro Spina Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5954.html Posted At 22:49:48 07/17/2001
"I think you have an error in your interpretation of our post[s] on site. For starters when one reads a post, he/she should read ALL the threads associated with that post to get the complete story in order to make such a determination. Obviously you have failed tyo do such."

Ma'am, next time, before attempting to talk down to someone and ridicule their ability to "read", maybe you should take your own advice. I never said anything about any posts or threads, I was talking about the survey on the home page of the site.
What else was there to read?


OUR PHILOSOPHY IS NOT THAT ALL PET STORES ARE BAD, YOU HAVE MISQUOTED "US".

Ma'am, I misquoted no one. The title was "Where do you get your reptiles from?" One of the choices was "Pet stores (Say it ain't so)". What other interpretation can you afford that statement? I am very curious to know. I saw that statement and closed the window. Why should I support or browse a sight when the webmaster has no respect for what I do? I hope other pet stores follow suit and ignore your site until that offensive remark is taken off. Do you think it has some effect on a person who is just getting into reptiles and views that comment?

Have a nice day.

Ciro Spina
JeffB Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5955.html Posted At 22:53:16 07/17/2001

>Excuse this long post...but I am going to quote Jeff alot here!
>"#1 Redtailboa.net is a commercial entity and business
>that offers advertising services and hosting services
>for the reptile industry"

>Jeff you are correct in that we offer banner advertising. But >if you read the information on our adds you will see that we >also do banner trades. I have yet to have one client that pays >for banner advertsing. (for refrence email Bob Clark, Fauna
>Magazine, and the others.

Thats not the point - if you have any type of advertising program that is available for money, that makes you commercial,
it makes you technically competition, and though
I don't view your site as a threat to our business, I cannot
allow your business to do what we deny to others that are in the same position, that IS discrimination. As long as your web site is commercial and its primary source of revenues is advertising, its competition,whether you have collected any revenues or not,
and our policy is that we can't sell advertising to our competition.

>Yes we do site hosting....want to know how much we charge?
>Nothing...go ahead...email Jordan Russell or lizardlake.com

Once again as long as your web site is commercial and its primary source of revenues is advertising, its competition, whether you have collected revenues or not.


>Yes we have a classified section. This is a free service that >we do. I do not charge users for this. Once again go to the >site and email the people that have the classified for there >herps up!

See the same answer above.

>"#3 kingsnake.com does not allow other businesses whose primary
>businessesdirectly compete with its primary business (hosting
>services, classified ads, and banner advertising) to advertise >their services on our system. "

>Ok so you basically told Jordan Russell that because his >website is hosted by us for FREE that he can not post links to >your site. If you really want to run your business this way >than thats fine...but man your in for a big suprise if you >keep that up. JeffB take not here that all my services are >FREE!

No, I told Jordan Russell that the posting of the URL redtailboa.net was blocked because of violations of
our Terms of Service.

>"#4 We do not add blocks and filters against people and web >sites because we don't like them, but because they have >violated our sites terms of service, usually more than once"
>Understandable. But hopefully we can clear all of this up :)

> "We were approached by redtailboa.net about their purchasing
> advertising months ago. We reviewed their site and
>determined that they were directly competing with 2 of
>our 3 primary business models. We informed them that
>we could not sell them advertising because of this conflict,
>something we have had to tell a number of businesses,
>and to do so would mean we would have to allow all our
>competition to also advertise."

>Thats your decision. But you should also recall that when I >openedup my site I did not offer Hosting, banner advertsing or >classifieds. Did you refuse to take my business because you saw >it as a threat to Kingsnake.com? I hope not because we do not >want to take away from kingsnake.com at all. We want to help >add to your site by maintaing a non-commercial organization. I >have the domains redtailboa.net (meaning a network...a network >full of people) and .org (for organization...meaning >non-profit for the community). So please do not feel >threatened by us.

I do not feel threatened by your site or any other site, I am just enforceing policy decisions made far before the construction of your web site and enforceing them equally.
When you contacted us about buying advertising you were in fact offering banner advertising.

> "Three weeks ago, while removing posts in the boa forum, I >found several posts announcing new "features" at the >redtailboa.net site. These weren't event annoucements, nor were >they posts as part of regular conversation, they were >advertisements for their site, plainly against both the posted >rules AND our verbal agreement. Once again we applied the >block, and now

>The new features you are probally refering to are caresheets >andwriteups on boa morphs/genetics. How is this >commercial...can you please provide the proof that this was >commercial and out of the verbal agreement? If they were post >that are for commercial means then they did not come from me >or morti...I assure you that. Heck our photo gallery is even >free.

That is NOT the point. Our forums are NOT the place for you or ANY web site to post announcements about your sites new features, services, or products, whether they are commercial or not. Our terms of service plainly state this. Our forums are for discussing animals and their care, period. If you want to tell your users about your new features do it on YOUR site, not on mine. Once again if I let you do this, then I have to let everyone do this and our forums will be nothing but people trying to promote their web sites. That is not the purpose of our forums.

As I said in original our phone conversation I had no problem with you posting about events, but care sheets, write ups, and image hosting services are not events.

>I am willing to donate every single article, and interview to >your site to help you drive more traffic. I am willing to >donate a ton of my free time to help you out for free. I just >want whats best for the herp community. Also Jeff I am willing >to review your upcoming sites with good reviews if there >worthy!! So please understand me and my admins. I am trying to >take and offer peace to you. I can't watch everbody at once..so >if any of my members have made you mad take it to them...not me >and my site Shane Jordan

All I ask and have ever asked is that you and your web site
follow the same rules we ask of everyone else. Whether a
web site is commercial/non-commercial is not even a factor
when it comes to making posts to our message boards.

If you and your staff will agree to stop making site and feature announcements(ads) in our forums, we will remove the blocks. We can't let your site post what we restrict others
from doing, once again that is discrimination.
Jeff Miller Pardon me for butting in...
5958.html Posted At 23:08:39 07/17/2001
May I ask how many hits redtail.net gets in a day? How much bandwidth does it have? How many servers do you run? How many people do you employ in order to keep the site running? What does it cost you to keep the site up?

Now, if the site is still around in two or three years, ask yourself the same questions.

Jeff charges what he does because it costs a lot of money to run a site like Kingsnake.com. Like it says in the traffic stats on the front page of Kingsnake: "kingsnake.com had over 8.4 million raw hits in January 2000 by over 600,000 visitors".

When you get traffic like that, then you can complain about the fees other websites charge, or brag about the lack of which you charge.

I can assure you that Jeff isn't a millionare.

Jeff Miller
Bryan Zigler Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5959.html Posted At 23:14:54 07/17/2001
Where do you get off making your judgements on a site based on their survey? The survey was created by a person who is very well-known and well-liked on the forums over there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this, nor do we think usually negatively of pet stores just because this is some junior high popularity contest. The reason the creator of that survey worded it the way he did was because there are more bad pet shops than good. And the majority of us have reached the same conclusions based on our experience. Out of all the pet shops, I have seen very few that actually do take quality care of their herps. And those that DO take good care of their herps are usually the ones that specialize only in herps. And I have seen a couple pet shops specializing in herps that did terrible jobs in their husbandry. I could do a much better job blindfolded. Now, I don't see why you think that a survey automatically determines the content and quality of the site. Maybe he shouldn't have said that because there are good pet stores out there, few and far between as they may be. But, if you are going to determine the quality of the content of the forums where users get the most help based on one single option on a survey you are missing out on a lot, my friend.

Sincerely,
Bryan Zigler
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5961.html Posted At 23:26:22 07/17/2001
JeffB: once again thanks for the reply. Just to settle something with you I changed my banner advertsing link. There is now nothing that has anything to do with money on my site at all other than users classifieds which is there thing...I just provide the page and get no money at all for this.

Now onto the other stuff. Jordans site was and never was affiliated with my site. Just because his domain was pythonproductions.redtailboa.net does not mean he is affiliated with a commercial site. If someone uses reptile.yahoo.com isn't that the same thing? Im sure you will say something about this...but I thought it was a good opinion. And just to make you happy he had to go with a "Commercial hosting service and pay for that"....so because of you he now has to pay for a service when I offered it for free.


Now for some more JeffB quotes :)
"That is NOT the point. Our forums are NOT the place for you or ANY web site to post announcements about your sites new features, services, or products, whether they are commercial or not. Our terms of service plainly state this. Our forums are for discussing animals and their care, period. If you want to tell your users about your new features do it on YOUR site, not on mine. Once again if I let you do this, then I have to let everyone do this and our forums will be nothing but people trying to promote their web sites. That is not the purpose of our forums."

I for one never offered any products...so scratch that (I know you are refering to your rules in General and not to me). First let me point this out:
http://www.kingsnake.com/forum/boa/messages/74617.html

Is this post not violating your rules? It sure seems like it. Let me quote it (you may delete it after seeing it...sorry if your missed this one,...I know its a hard job to mederate your forum).

"And NOW available in AUGUST issue of Reptile and Amphibian magazine. I really worked hard on this article, and tried to share my knowledge of these great(Albeit stinky!) snakes. when you consider the fact that i own neither a digital camera(Or any camera for that matter) nor a computer, it is nothing short of a miracle that this thing came out as good as it did. Thanks go out to Ed Arana, my partner ,For allowing me to borrow his digital camera, and for the kind employess at the public library in Lemon Grove for not kicking nme out at closeing time and for them keeping the HOARd of children AWAY from me while Iwas working(They play video games on the computers arrgggg!)
At any rate , check it out, you even get a pic of my smiling face(My 4.2 seconds of fame!)
regretttably, it is not a pull out poster(Oh well, cant have everything!)
Go, buy the magazine and check it out.
P.S.
I will see you all at the I.r.b.a. show in San diego on july 21/22. come by our booth, Renegade Reptiles and chat. Look forward to seeing you all there."

Now i can see that post to be helpful...but also in violation with your site. Its advertsing his table at a upcoming show and Reptile Magazine...but its also showing the public...hey here;s a great article I wrote.

I never once posted any services other than my Photo Gallery. This is free and if I recall I remember seeing a ton of people posting other Photo gallery links when Photopoint was having issues. My photo gallery is free so there should be no problem. Its run off of GPL software that I have done some customizations to.

The only features I have posted have been things like this:
http://redtailboa.net/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=6 Caresheets

http://redtailboa.net/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=1
Genetics and other scientific articles

http://redtailboa.net/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=3
Interviews with breeders.

If this is not reptile related to you then what is. If you write up a article about boa breeding I gurantee I will post it on my site because it will educate the community. Thats all I am trying to do.

If I write up a article about kingsnake.com's new features and caresheets wouldn't that be valuable information for the herp world? I think it is. Knowledge should be Open to everyone...thats why you (I hope) and me both run very good forums :)

So once again Jeff you can throw all you want at me whinning about me violating your terms...but you still have not proven to me anything about what exactly is wrong with a valid point. I offer FREE knowledge about reptiles. I would never post anything to your forum that did not help the herp community out. I have a special section in my forum for that..Its called "Just talk". I can understand you getting mad at me for posting something like "Hey dude check out my new hair style" or whatnot.

To clear up the air if I seem harsh I am not. And if anyone here thinks badly about Kingsnake.com over this please do not. JeffB is in my opinion the pioneer of reptile websites. He started the first major reptile related site and still to this day holds number 1 in ranking and will probally continue to hold it for a very long time. So if you have not seen Kingsnake.com please go and check it out. Its full of great links, information and has a very good forum and commercial section. Do not...I repeat do not hate the site because of this little problem between us. Im just wanting peace and understanding between us.

I Shane Jordan would love to work out some kind of deal with Kingsnake.com to better the herp enviroment and make it a better place on the net. I stand here again submitting that I am willing to give my Free time to help Kingsnake.com help the reptile community out. I just want whats best for everyone...thats why I choose to be commercial free...but being commercial is never bad.
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5962.html Posted At 23:42:35 07/17/2001
Jeff Miller:
To start off lets look here:
http://redtailboa.net/stats.php
That I think is since January 1 2001...which as of right now is somewhere around 440,000 hits.

My site was coded by me (origally using php nuke and later taking that open source software and highly modifying it)...so if your wondering software cost let me list that:

OS: Linux $0.00
Database: MySql $0.00
Code: Custom no money...but a ton of my free time.

Servers: Redtailboa.net was originally run off of one of my home computers. The load became very overwhelming so I decided to upgrade:
We now have 2 servers:
the first server is just for the dynamic html creation (via php and apache). This server runs a custom Redhat 7.0 distro that I modified. The specs are below:

CPU Type: 1 GenuineIntel Pentium III (Coppermine) 797 MHz Processor(s)
Level II Cache: 256 KB
RAM Installed: . 512 MB
Hard Disk Space: 5 18 gig hard drives in a Raid 5 array.

Second server: dedicated to mysql database:
Dual Xeon 800 MHZ prossessor. 2 gigs of ram and once again a 18 gig raid 5 configuration.

The location running the network also has battery backups and fallover servers in case 1 of the 2 go down (for redundency). The site is running basically 2 t1's through a Intel Switch. I will not disclose the amount of money for this because Its rather high....but if you know anything about computers you know this is expensive :)

Hope that clears up some confusion for ya. BTW in no way am I trying to say I spent more than Jeff. I do not even claim to get the amount of traffic he does...but I do know that he runs BSD and can take alot (got to love unix!). I really don't see how jeff charging people is harmful...so the point you made didn't really make any sense to me. I kind of see your point to why he charges and thats totally cool...but I still do not charge just because I think knowledge should be free. If I ever take cash it would be in form of donations and if it came down to it and redtailboa.net would need to close there doors because I can no longer affort it Im sure people would help me out...because I will make this statement. Redtailboa.net is here and is here to stay...no matter what! The community keeps us going and if we need the help the community will provide...I can assure you that :)

Have a niceday...almost time for me to go to bed :)
LORI KEHOE ADMINISTRATOR @ REDTAILBOA.NET Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5963.html Posted At 00:01:59 07/18/2001
CIRO..No where in your post did you refer to a "SURVEY". You made a broadspectrum remark. BUT now that you point such out as what you are refering to, it is not the only "reptile source" listed on that survey. Sorry, BUT I had "ASSUMED" that when you said you "WENT TO THE SITE TO SEE IT" , you meant "THE SITE". UHH, "OUR" site entails much more than the HOME page you found that survey on. SO I'll now change my assumption to .."YOU HAVEN'T SEEN OUR SITE ENTIRELY" and are marking your errors of conclusion in judgement on REDTAILBOA.NET from "ONE" tiny area of the site's home page? BTW...UH I haven't noticed any complaint or request regarding this "OFFENSIVE REMARK" in my messages @ the site from yourself???? No other moderator OR the owner of the site has noted such either. If it is such an "offensive remark" to you, why haven't you notified one of us to let us know??? AFTER ALL, what offends one person, may not offend the next one. This is what makes us ALL different people.
I understand you may not be used to the "PERSONAL" level of service "WE" @ REDTAILBOA.NET provide to our members or visitors, BUT that is what makes "OUR" site what and what it shall grow to be tommorrow.

JEFFB....I'm reading from your posts that you do NOT allow any commercial advertising on your forums. YET..what is the following posts from your Boa forum then if it is NOT a form of ADVERTISING????

[copied and pasted from your site]
Posted by BigJim on July 15, 2001 at 10:55:47:

Well we are finally having a reptile show and sale in Arkansas! thanks to texasreptiles and Central Ark Herp Society. I am looking forward to meeting everyone that can attend this show! hopefully this will be a yearly event! Regards, Jim Elliott if you need info you can contact me at the email addy above.
Posted by Aztec Fred(Aztec Reptiles) on July 16, 2001 at 14:48:50:

Chris,
i go to ALL the shows in S. Calif and Arizona EVERY year. S.D. show blows the DOORS off the Pomona show. But the 2nd san diego show is the one where all the "Good stuff" will be, this first show is early in the year and people wont have stuff hatched out quite this early or they dont have it feeding yet. Go to the October show, you wont be dissapointed!! As for the July show, drop by our booth"Renegade Reptiles" and chat. Remember,Renegade Reptiles....rebellion is alive and well!!;)
Sincerely,
Fred


ALSO..This time around it all started when I received a warning from my post on your site. I was posting pics , that happen to be located in MY REDTAILBOA ALBUM , to help out one of YOUR forum users who had no photos available due to the photopoint problem. Where does this conflict with your rules/regulations??? OTHERS are allowed to post pics on your site from album sources, with no penalties to them or WARNINGS. That is where the "DISCRIMINATION" comes in to play here. I also have been accused by multiple persons on your site forum of posting "ADVERTISEMENT" for REDTAILBOA.NET in my posts on your site forums. I've asked for the "proof &/or evidence" of such, but apparently noone , including yourself has come forth with such. BECAUSE I HAVE HONORED YOUR RULES & REGULATIONS CONCERNING SUCH WHEN POSTING ON YOUR SITE FORUMS, IT CAN'T BE PROVIDED.
LORI
April Yohn - Absolute Constrictor Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5977.html Posted At 10:32:11 07/18/2001
Lori... Ciro didn't say it was from the survey but she used
the words from the survey "pet shops, say it ain't so"...
which I recognized as being from the survey. It's just a
miscommunication. Ciro, it was meant in a light-hearted way,
if you notice in most of our surveys the choices are usually
written in a joking way... in the same survey there is the
choice "the shady looking guy on the corner". If the way
one particular thing was worded sent you off the site.. well
that's too bad. I'm sure if it really bothered you and
you wrote to the admins on the site they would be more than
happy to hear your reasons and change the wording.

This whole discussion tho is taking away from the main topic...
Let's try to keep on target. :)
I visit and enjoy both sites... I see them both as places for
enchanges of information, and with all the miss-information
(or lack of) out there, it seems this should be a good thing.

One thing, not trying to single a specific person out, but
this was mentinoed on kingsnake and I thought it was a good
point.. when "someone" was making posts on kingsnake that
basically said "hey, check out these new cages!" that he
makes and sells.. those posts were allowed to stay because they
"were considered information" and not an ad... how is that any
different from redtailboa posting "hey, check out this interview!"
which is actually ONLY information and not something for sale...
clarify please? (those were just examples)
Donnie Smith, Morti from Redtailboa.net Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5980.html Posted At 10:57:31 07/18/2001
Ciro, I profusely appologise for offending you. That comment was meant, as April Said, in a joking manner. That survey has been removed and replaced. I did not anticipate that anyone would be offended by it.

Thanks for letting me know this.

-Everyones Sick Uncle Morti.
Jeff Miller Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5982.html Posted At 11:13:24 07/18/2001
Shane,
Thanks for the run down. My main point was that Kingsnake.com has been around for a long time, and has grown from being a one man show to requiring several employees. It isn't just information exchange-- that part is free. It's a marketplace too. Charging a fee for the classifieds and advertising brings in revenue to keep the rest of the site operating under the strain of so much traffic everyday and even irritations like unhappy visitors who threaten lawsuits, which any busy site may have. Plus you know as well as I do that the reptile crowd can be pretty unsavory at times.
Again, my point was not directed soley to you so much as it was just a clearification to whoever suggested that Jeff was a rich man. I met him when he had a full time job and was trying to figure out how he could keep Kingsnake up and running on his own-- and that was back when he was getting around 1000 hits a day. Last month it seems that site recieved and average of 95,000 hits a day from 97,000 users. It is no mystery to me why such a big site would require funds from at least SOME of those users. Again, classifieds and advertising are the only features of the place that costs anything.

Good luck with redtailboa.net. I really hope it takes off for you, and I don't doubt it could. I'll just bet that if your site grows as fast and as large as some of the other sites out there, you'll be charging for something. :)

Jeff
James Friess Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5984.html Posted At 11:27:20 07/18/2001
April, if I was to read that "say it ain't so" comment and I was a pet store owner/dealer, I would pretty much think the same way Ciro did. You say above that it's supposed to be in a light hearted manner yet add to the "say it ain't so" comment with a "shady looking guy on the corner" comment. LOL, I'm sure Ciro will happily be lumped into the same catagory. C'mon, you know pet stores are being put down in the survey. Don't try to play that off. For the most part, pet stores have earned there reputation if you ask me, but don't b.s. Ciro here and tell him the remarks on your site are not meant to be degrading...they certainly must be to a pet store owner!
As for the original post, Kingsnake.com is Jeff's site, his business, his life. He can do what he wants. Like it or not. I don't think is worried about the competition from redtailboa.net specifically, but if you think about his position, he should be worried about all the other sites combined with redtailboa.net taking a chunk of change out of his pocket. Even if it's just free classifieds. That's money Jeff will not be getting. If he breaks policy for one site, he has to do it for everyone. He has to set the line somewhere and has obvioulsy tried to compromise with you. Let him do his thing and work on your own site with your own resources, not Jeff's.
For the record, I like redtailboa.net. Found it on kingsnake.com =)
April Yohn - Absolute Constrictor Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5986.html Posted At 11:39:09 07/18/2001
James, I wasn't trying to lump those two together! lol I was
just using it as another example of a joke-type choice in
a survey, there are other examples in past surveys I could have
used, I just picked that one since it was from the same survey.
Sorry for any confussion! But, the whole issue has been taken
care of by one of the admins, so that's good. I'm sure if she
had written to the admins in the first place they would have
fixed it then as well. I'm not an admin nor did I write the
survey. :) Just to clarify. I *do* see how it could be taken
bad tho, it just didn't offend me personally, so I didn't make a fuss.
Raven Johnson Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5989.html Posted At 12:50:06 07/18/2001
Hmmm. Love the new survey on redtailboa - not. As for me, or anyone, needing to notify a site's administrator if I take offense at a subject, survey or whatever - I don't think so. Before something is posted it should have already been looked at to see if it could be misconstrued. At the very least, the option left open to debate and exceptions. Obviously the bash on pet stores wasn't. Just as a few bad breeders give the rest a black eye, so it works with pet stores. I've been in a number of pet stores that do try hard to care properly for their animals and provide correct information - not always the exception as some would have you believe. It also isn't just uneducated newbies that purchase animals or supplies from stores, alot of experienced people do as well. As for the statement that most experienced herpers only buy animals from pet stores to 'save' them, they are feeding the problem by creating demand and not helping the problem at all. They save one animal but commit tens, hundreds or thousands to the same fate (see green iguanas as a prime example).

The situation with kingsnake and redtailboa has never been an issue of whether or not the users can post to both forums - it is obvious they can (check out all the recent posts about this very topic). The issue is the links to that site, which have been blocked - the whole site, not just certain users. Blocking just doesnt' work that way. Anyone who thinks otherwise is being intentionally obtuse.

It is also irrelevant that Natas considers his site non-profit. It still offers advertising space and classifieds and that is a commercial endeavor. Even if it weren't, JeffB expressly spelled out what could be posted and what could not after the initial problems of posts saying simply, 'come see my new site'. Quote, "It was agreed that they could post announcements about specific events like interviews and chats but that that was it." - per JeffB's post. For the record, I never would have found redtailboa if it had not been posted on kingsnake's forums.

I've been to both sites and am a member of both, for what that's worth. My personal preference is kingsnake, it loads quicker and is more along the lines of what I care to read. That's just my preferences though. Some of the members have tried to make this personal and it isn't, it is simply business. Kingsnake is Jeff's site, to run as he sees fit. If redtailboa is incapable of following the TOS, there is no reason to reinstate their linking priviledges. Perhaps that is harsh to some of you, but I don't see why there should be any exceptions to that rule. In regards to that, I also think the Boaplastics' post should have been deleted - it was a blatant advertisement in my book. I have found, however, that most of the posts aren't deleted unless they continue to make posts breaking the TOS. Usually a warning is posted and that is all. From my recollection, all of the posts to check out this new feature or that one on redtailboa continued to stand and links to the site were simply blocked.

Along the lines of advertisements, I don't feel Fred sharing that he has an article in a magazine is an advertisement nor breeders saying what shows they will be at. We have a lot of breeders at kingsnake that actually participate in the forums and it's always nice to know of an oportunity to meet face to face. They've never posted 'come buy something' but simply 'swing by my booth if you're there and say hello' (at least all of them that I've read).

That's my .02 worth on all this. Raven
Jamie Barnes Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5990.html Posted At 13:08:00 07/18/2001
I've an idea, why don't RTB & KS agree to leave each other the hell alone & get on with their own things, thus leaving the 'herp public' to make their own choices as to where they visit? let the content do the talking. Maybe as an outsider, I have a simplistic view.

Anyone upset by content in either site should make their feeling known right away to an admin. for appropriate action to be taken. There's a saying "You can please SOME people SOME of the time, but not ALL people ALL the time"

RTB & KS should maybe call a 'truce' to prevent either from advertising on the other. Such things as photo albums & domain/email addresses should IMO be excluded, but perhaps they could be filtered to an admin/owner at either site to make an informed judgement/decision.

C'mon, let's not be kids about this & enjoy what both sites have to offer.

Regards & best wishes to you all
Jamie Barnes
PS - can I post my site address here?!!!!!
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
5992.html Posted At 13:11:04 07/18/2001
"Along the lines of advertisements, I don't feel Fred sharing that he has an article in a magazine is an advertisement nor breeders saying what shows they will be at. We have a lot of breeders at kingsnake that actually participate in the forums and it's always nice to know of an oportunity to meet face to face. They've never posted 'come buy something' but simply 'swing by my booth if you're there and say hello' (at least all of them that I've read)."

THis is the point I am trying to make to everyone on this board. I have also never said "Come to my site and buy something". I have posted...check out my interview or article ect. I have never once told anyone to check out my classifieds. My classifieds are just pages I create for users that don't have webspace. I don't have any kind of log in system or anything for it. In fact I think we have had a total of 6 classified adds on the site. I tried to make a post about me being at the Arlington Texas Reptile show and I and others from Redtailboa.net got blocked for this. SO what I am saying is if he's going to let others post valuable information like articles or whatever then be fair to everyone. I know its his right to do whatever...but if he wants to pick people out that can do this...but these people can't do it then its my right to come here and say that redtailboa.net users are being discriminated. Its only fair to let the public no this.


Anyway the point is this. JeffB is blocking my site's URL (and don't go into the blocking features that Kingsnake.com does). JeffB blocked the following *redtailboa.net. He could have done something like http://redtailboa.net/* that way email and photogallery users would not be blocked.

My point is that he can block my links all that he wants. If he wants the community to miss out on great articles and interviews that we do thats fine...the community will find them eventually anyway...I want him to take the email block off and the photo gallery block off and any sites I hosts.


ONCE AGAIN LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR. I HAVE NEVER TRIED TO SELL ANYTHING...AND I HAVE NEVER TRIED TO SELL ANYTHING ON KINGSNAKE.COM...I HAVE ONLY POSTED PICTURES OF MY ANIMALS, QUESTIONS TO THE EXPERTS, AND POINTED PEOPLE TO HERP RELATED ARTICLES, FAMOUS BREEDERS INTERVIEWS AND OUR PHOTOGALLERY WHEN PEOPLE WERE FED UP WITH PHOTOPOINT.COM

I hope you get this point. I should not have to repeat myself on this. But it seems as though some people need it to be said over and over!!!

EXCUSE my grammer and random thought patterns :)
LORI KEHOE Administrator @ REDTAILBOA.NET Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6003.html Posted At 14:41:21 07/18/2001
Yes April. That's exactly what I said. Ciro did NOT point out that she was refering to the "SURVEY" location. I "assumed" that since she "checked out" the site of REDTAILBOA.NET that her post here was in relation to the pet store threads..MY BAD. I still say you can't judge a by it's cover, and afterall Isn't the home page of any given site the "cover"???
UHH...Still waiting on a responce from JEFF B. on this though...I do note that he hasn't posted here since I put it up..so I'll assume it's NOT being ignored here ...yet..
JEFF B>>>>
ALSO..This time around it all started when I received a warning from my post on your site. I was posting pics , that happen to be located in MY REDTAILBOA ALBUM , to help out one of YOUR forum users who had no photos available due to the photopoint problem. Where does this conflict with your rules/regulations??? OTHERS are allowed to post pics on your site from album sources, with no penalties to them or WARNINGS. That is where the "DISCRIMINATION" comes in to play here. I also have been accused by multiple persons on your site forum of posting "ADVERTISEMENT" for REDTAILBOA.NET in my posts on your site forums. I've asked for the "proof &/or evidence" of such, but apparently noone , including yourself has come forth with such. BECAUSE I HAVE HONORED YOUR RULES & REGULATIONS CONCERNING SUCH WHEN POSTING ON YOUR SITE FORUMS, IT CAN'T BE PROVIDED.
LORI
Raven Johnson Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6005.html Posted At 15:55:02 07/18/2001
Lori,

I'm not JeffB and can by no means speak for him but I would like to offer an opinion. I've seen your posts for an explanation and I've seen posts saying that the TOS was violated by redtailboa (originally with the 'look at my site' posts). I've even posted that myself. Jeff then put a block on all posts linking to redtailboa - not just your posts, but any posts. The other posts still show links because they aren't links to redtailboa. It isn't descrimination against you, IMO, but just a block on the site.

It seems that JeffB is willing to work out an agreement from his above post but insists that no posts regarding caresheets, articles, new features, etc. are to be made on kingsnake forums - which isn't that much to ask IMHO. Quote from Jeff's post above "If you and your staff will agree to stop making site and feature announcements (ads) in our forums, we will remove the blocks." Jeff has offered a way to resolve it. It is up to Natas to accept or decline. From what I've seen of Natas' posts here, he has no intention of changing his ways and thus the block won't be lifted. I'd like all this crap to go away as much as the rest of you but that isn't going to happen until Natas agrees to abide by the TOS on kingsnake. It doesn't matter that he doesn't think it's selling or the site is commercial or not. Natas could make the whole thing resolved by agreeing to abide by the TOS. So far, I've not seen on here that he agrees or is willing.

It's a shame a lot of other people are caught in the crossfire on this but that's just how it is. There has also been a fair amount of mudslinging and name calling. I've been to redtailboa's forums and seen some of the posts - one of the reasons I haven't frequented there much lately. None of that helps anything and just creates more friction between people that should be standing together as a community. I'm hoping this gets resolved but I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen either.

Raven Johnson
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6006.html Posted At 16:43:56 07/18/2001
Raven Johnson:
Your point is well thought out and thanks for replying :)

If JeffB wants nothing but Boa talk (pertaining to the boa forum) and only talk about care and problems with these snakes then thats fine. But you should also take into consederation that he has chosen to block from specific sites.

Let me ask this. What if someone on the kingsnake.com forum asks for a good link to a caresheet on Hogg Island boa's and Joe Blow points her to a link on his site with a care sheet specifically for Hogg Island Boas. According to Jeff this is beaking the TOS. But the crazy thing about all of this is that everyone does this.

Fred's post about his article in Reptile Magazine is a perfect example. I am very glad that Fred posted this because I read the article and feel grateful that he pointed us to it. But how is this any different then what I do when I post my caresheet links or interviews with boa breeders. I know that a high percentage of the forum users in there would love to see more caresheets and interviews done...thats why I posted the links. So why do I get blocked and others don't?


If he wants to keep his forum that strict then thats perfectly fine and I will not do it anymore (which I haven't posted a link personally in a very long time)...but is it fair that I can't but fred or any other person on that forum can? Not in my opinion. Anyway we have not broken any rules over there since we have been warned...and THAT IS THE TRUTH..THE point of this Inquiry was to point out that we would like to have the blocks removed so people with redtailboa.net email accounts, photo galleries and whatnot be able to post on the forum.

Yes the issue has dug deeper into the Discrimination but I could care less. I know (actions speak louder than words) that we are being discriminated and I think its wrong. If its not on purpose and just lack of people to moderate then I will help out by posting under a post that "Hey just a FYI you are breaking the TOS"...which I can start today if Jeff Likes? That seems imature I know...but when Im getting nailed for it and others don't (and there are people I see doing it all the time that never get nailed for it) then I will speak my opinion on the matter.

Personally Raven can I ask you a question and others can speak there mind on this also?

Do you think we should be able post news articles that we find on the net to the forums?

Example 1).I find a article on yahoo.com about how venom in snakes helps cure diseases. I then post this link on the venomous section of Kingsnake.com's forum. Would this be breaking the TOS. Would this be considered off topic?

The reason why I bring this up is because it is no way different then what I did in the past. I never said hey I have snakes for sale...check them out...or when you go to this link be sure to buy something.

Blah Im getting tired of this because as we all know it is going in circles because its a very gray area. Let me just say this I can survive with out posting articles that I write about Boa-constrictors on kingsnake.com's forum....but I don't think its fair to everyone...I think everyone should have the chance to know about it. Forums are for free and open opinions. But if the forum has its rules then we have to play by them....but if the moderator cannot be fair then the TOS is a waste of time and is a double standard.

Flame on :)

BTW if I seem really immature excuse me...Im only 22 and have never in my life had to deal with something like this. I grew up in a open minded area on the internet and I am a hardcore advocate of free knowledge...thats why this whole thing with kingsnake.com is disapointing me. I never would have thought that the number one website in the world dedicated to reptiles was so close minded about open knowledge....I thought the whole idea of my site and Kingsnake.com's site was to educate the world about these awesome creatures...if Im wrong then please correct me. If thats really the point of kingsnake.com then this should not even be a issue. Sounds more like a money thing which brings me to the point that I do not make any money off my site and do not intend to. If people want to sell there reptile products ect then I am always the first to tell them to go to Kingsnake.com because its the quickest way to do it.

Ok Im done :)
joe hornsby Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6007.html Posted At 16:47:13 07/18/2001
in my opinion the herp community should be working together.....not against each other. we all share a mutual interest reptiles
Bryan Zigler Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6008.html Posted At 16:57:16 07/18/2001
I think Shane Jordan, a.k.a. NataS has no problem with doing any so-called "advertising" on Kingsnake.com. But, what I see that NataS is trying to make crystal clear is that Redtailboa.net is not a commercial website. True, he may sell banner space to allow other sites to advertise. But he is also into trading banners. He advertises for them, they advertise for him. Simple as that. The site also has the option of donations. The donations can go by way of just donating money, buying shirts or mousepads, or even buying herp-related books. Shane Jordan a.k.a. NataS does not make any profit off the donations, the money that he does get, as little as it probably is, goes to the server or the bandwidth or whatever it is that keeps the site up and running. Redtailboa.net is not a commercial site because it doesn't make any profit. Shane Jordan believes that knowledge should be free, and the money that Redtailboa.net does get is not mandatory for any services or anything of the like, but out of your own free will. It is a .org site or a non-profit organization, if you will.

Regards,
Bryan Zigler
Bryan Zigler Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6010.html Posted At 17:25:06 07/18/2001
I just noticed a mistake I made in the first sentence. I said:

"I think Shane Jordan, a.k.a. NataS has no problem with doing any so-called "advertising" on Kingsnake.com."

I meant to say that I think Shane Jordan has no problem with refraining from doing any so-called "advertising" on Kingsnake.com. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Regards,
Bryan Zigler
Jason Swe!gart & Danni Miller Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6017.html Posted At 20:57:22 07/18/2001

"JORDAN>>> I am truly sorry to hear that, especially as an administrator of the referenced site! I don't know what to tell you at this point. WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS MORE THAN WELCOME AT OUR SITE AND I HOPE THAT YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE!" posted by Lori on kingsnake

This to me sounds like advertisement. “CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE” According to Jeff in a previous post “#3 kingsnake.com does not allow other businesses whose primary businesses directly compete with its primary business (hosting services, classified ads, and banner advertising) to advertise their services on our system.” All three of which Redtail has, one of which is quoted directly above. I don't see where you were being singled out, as you seem so worried about it with your numerous posts. Posting the redtail name, link whatever was banned for a reason after redtail was warned and it did not stop. Last time I checked you were still able to post on kingsnake, your last post was just a few days ago on the 16th of this month at 11:43pm, just not able to use the redtail name, just like EVERYONE else. The thing that I got tired of, was the constant complaining about not being able to post links, pics, etc. on kingsnake from redtail. Certain people who couldn’t follow the TOS were the ones that got this taken away, not the rest of us. And holding a chat room talk about it would get no where because the users of kingsnake have no power to allow anyone to post redtail links.

Also one other thing, this may not have been posted personally by you Lori, but one of the reasons redtail was banned was because someone was posting come look at the write ups on our site “I have posted...check out my interview or article ect.” Posted by Shane on this thread. What is so hard about this to understand, because you are trying to direct people to YOUR site. When Danni & I did a 10 page write up on Dumerils, neither of us posted come look at the write up on our site, so we did not break the TOS rules. We copied and pasted our report directly out of Microsoft word to the message box on the kingsnake forum so that we could share the information without breaking TOS. Jeff still allows all of redtail users to post, so why can't you do the same? Simply take all the ref. to redtail out of your report and copy and paste into message box. If you want to share the info without advertising that would seem like a very simple way to do it without breaking TOS.
"I was eventually even warned that the articles that I write on redtailboa.net could not be linked to." posted by morti in this thread. Instead of trying to direct traffic to your site, again I'll ask why can't the article be copied and pasted into the message box since you are still allowed to post minus the referrals to redtail.




Shane made a comment in the email he sent me about how he contacted Jeff because he somehow wanted to work together between the two sites,
"I would also like to point out that Natas tried to setup a link from this site with jeff, and he instantly said no. Share the trafic... there is plenty for both of us." posted by Morti on kingsnake. What's the big deal with this? What I don't understand is why Shane & Morti can't get over Jeff saying no. He has made his choice, move on. He has also explained why he has said no. You’re not the only people he has done this to. Pretty much what your telling me from remarks like this, is that if Wal-Mart came to KMart when Wal-Mart was starting out and said look I would like to throw up some road side banners in your parking lot would you please allow me to do that and KMart said no, there wrong? Years ago Kmart was the big dude and Wal-Mart was the small fry, do you think they would work together...uhh NO.

Also you keep saying it's a non-commercial site because you do not charge any $$$$. Kingsnake at one point and time did not charge for any services. But in time it grew and Jeff could no longer afford it on his own. So he started charging to cover the costs of the site for some of its services. Then in time it grew to the point that Jeff had to quit his 9-5 job and take the site on full time for an income. What happens when the same thing happens to you in the future if your site continues to grow? Are you still going to blast that it's not a commercial site when you have to charge to keep it up? In the mean time, while you are saying it's a non-commercial site and charging no money, is he supposed to allow you to promote your site off of his until you have to start charging for services. Just ask Rich about all the adjustments he has had to make to this site, because of how much larger it got than he anticipated.

“Just to settle something with you I changed my banner advertsing link." There is now nothing that has anything to do with money on my site at all other than users classifieds which is there thing” posted by Shane on this thread
Ok so first you were willing to trade banners or charge for a banner and now your not. Why the sudden change of heart and how long will it be before you have to reverse this due to the cost of maintaining the site? To me it appears that you are admitted he is right because you changed it. If you were such a firm believer that your site was non-commercial to start with, why the change?



"I feel it necessary to also point out that at no time did kingsnake.com make public (on our forums or on other sites) the abuse of the forums by persons from the blocked site. You have it plastered all over your site and on another. This along with previous actions shows that there is no actual remorse or willingness to work together." posted by Clint on Kingsnake

"Morti and Natas...excellent job on your posts there. I REALLY wanted to post QUIT BEING SUCH A POMPOUS JACKASS YOU HYPOCRITE BARRINGER, but out of respect for you guys, I refrained! Keep up the good work. Everyone but Barringer's lemmings will see who is in the right here." posted by Pat on redtail

Clint hit the nail on the head with his post. And first, I want to say I received an email from Shane, extremely polite and professional with some valid points which I will be resounding to him in email, but to answer your 1 question, would I ever be willing to do a write up with you on dumerils, the answer is no. The simple fact that the post by Pat was allowed to stand in redtail and Shane the website owner posted directly under it, is why I must decline your offer. And I do not want to be affiliated with a site that allows this sort of slander and mudslinging. Personally on kingsnake I have not seen anything of this sort towards redtail or people affiliated with it. I don't hold you responsible for what your posters say, but the admins for what is allowed to be posted.

In our opinion kingsnake is a wonderful site with tons of information. Yes we do get into it from time to time and some forums bicker more than others. But with the amount of people who visit, that is bound to happen. No one thinks alike thank goodness or life would be boring. But it is nice to have a place to share the love of snakes without having to search through chat room posts constantly. We do wish redtail all the luck in the world, but our loyalty (yes we are lemmings) stays with kingsnake, it’s our online home.
We have nothing against anyone on either site, but just as everyone else have the right to state our opinion on the matter. Everyone have a good night, and keep smiling (big ones now) :)



Jason & Danni :) SMILE
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6022.html Posted At 22:04:55 07/18/2001
Jason and Danni...thanks for joining in with your opinions on the matter :)

First to clear things up on the post from Pat...I firstly allow a open forum and thats just the way I run....but I do not allow cursing and racism (The filter is suppose to remove that stuff...but for some reason it did not...hehe I have a replace word parser that is in the working)...anyway let me say this to you guys. I very much respect you in the fact that you guys are probally the number one Dumeril Breeders around...so let me state that just for the heck of it.

Like I said before I don't mind JeffB blocking any linkage...thats perfectly fine with me...and yes I can post on kingsnake.com if I delete my cookies from my browser and use a alternate email...that I don't mind. But my problem right now is only him blocking the users that have redtailboa.net emails and photo galleries. In fact Im not sure why we got blocked because from what I understand Morti and JeffB made a aggreement that it was ok to post articles and interviews as long as it did not have anything to do with commercial stuff... My point is once again THAT I AM NOT A COMMERCIAL WEBSITE. Thats why I do not have .com at the end of my url. Anyway Jason I'm hoping you get my point and if you don't thats fine...there are always grey areas.

Also I changed the banner advertisment to prove that I do not care about the money and to show Jeff that I will change whatever he wants so I can't get everything cleared up...I did not remove it because I thought I was in the wrong.

Also you quoted me on my post about Jordan's site. Haha this is a double quote originally from JeffB.
"This to me sounds like advertisement. “CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE” According to Jeff in a previous post “#3 kingsnake.com does not allow other businesses whose primary businesses directly compete with its primary business (hosting services, classified ads, and banner advertising)".

First my primary "business" as you would point out...is not classifieds (I only have 5 of these), hosting (which is free also) 2 users orignally (now one because Jordan was at the mercy of JeffB), and banner advertsing (all done with banner trades). My primary "Business" is articles, and any other information to do with Reptiles.

Jason thanks for pointing out that I was professional about my email :) I try my best to keep a good name because I run a non-profit organization! Although I am young its really hard to sound professional.

Also your thought on getting overwhelmed with traffic and whatnot. I have already hit this point. My stats on my page are actually unique hit stats. My actual amount of "hits" meaning page views is a avg. (as of this month) of 90,000 a day. SO yes I am already to the point of being overwhelmed (thats why I moved from my house to a hosting location). I still intend to stay free only taking donations if needed. Now that I look at it right now I could easily make money off of my site (I have a few projects that I could easily finish up in a few months and charge for)...but my goal is to keep my site up using the money I make off of Breeding boa's (which I will try to sell,...if Jeff allows me off of his classifeds)...but thats a while from now.

Jason Im sorry to hear that you do not want to do a interview with us on Dumerils. Do you happen to know anyone with the same or if possible more experience on Dumeril Boa's that maybe interested. Not many people come to my site have them and I rarely see them being sold (other than from you) or talked about. I think these boa's are very beautiful and have a much higher potentional if the word gets out :)

Once again thanks for your reply and time :)

And to everyone thats agree's or disagree's with me please try to keep all of this at a professional level..I stated this on my forum...but you always get people that have to say something extreme when they truly believe in something.

For the record I have nothing against JeffB and if I were ever allowed to; I would love to sit down with him sometime in the future (I hear he lives in Austin...I visit Austin all the time) and laugh about all this. I would love to see and hear more about JeffB. He seems so mysterious to me because I rarely see much from him (I know he is very busy...I can certainly understand this!). So JeffB if you are reading this I would love to meet ya. Maybe someday I can catch you at a show and we can sit down and talk...
Shane Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6023.html Posted At 22:09:08 07/18/2001
Sorry my mind is going a hundred miles an hour right now...I'm trying to rework my forum DB structure.

Morti moderates the forum that had something to say about this thread on the BOI. (the one Jason was referring to). Im sure once he see's pat's post it will either be removed or humorily (is that a word?) changed :)
Pat DelTurco Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6035.html Posted At 00:23:05 07/19/2001
I stand by that post Jason. I thought you only cared about the animals and not about business? Why are you arguing that here?
Pat DelTurco Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6036.html Posted At 00:24:05 07/19/2001
I stand by that post Jason. I thought you only cared about the animals and not about business? Why are you arguing that here?

Oops forgot the email
Jeff Barringer more...
6037.html Posted At 00:24:06 07/19/2001
You guys are mixing issues...

There are 2 issues here,
#1 KS not selling RTB advertising because the meet our policy
definition of a competitor

#2 KS blocking posts that contain redtailboa.net because of TOS
violations

They have nothing to do with each other.

#2 is the real issue and this is the last time I will address it. The blocks were put in place because of repeated "advertising" of RTB's features in our forums.

I am not going to go through and answer every query but let
me touch on the main ones...

Anyone that starts a thread with a message that essentially
says "Hey ma I put something new on my web site" is advertising.

Anyone that answers a question and refers someone to a document located elsewhere is NOT advertising.

There is a big difference. The ONLY advertising we have ever allowed to be POSTED in the forums is EVENT INFORMATION.
In 7 years of hosting forums we have always allowed events
to be posted and nothing else. (That is the answer to LORI's question)

IF there are posts that violate this we ask that our users file
an abuse complaint. IF there are any posts on site NOW it is because we have not received a complaint about them.

We have neither the time nor the staff to have full time moderators reviewing all the posts on our message boards.
It would be cost prohibitive and our attorneys require us
to only have paid employees due to legal liability issues.
You as well would be advised to speak to yourt attorneys
because as the owner of the the domain names you are legally
responsible for your employees actions, whether it is a paid employee or a volunteer.

When we block a web site we block the base domain name.Period.
Why? Because when we don't we have people like LORI who try to
find all the little ways around the blocks, by posting all the permutations of the domain name, or using the IP address. We have been through this before with dozens of other sites.

We don't care whether your site is commercial or not. We don't
care what changes you make to your business and your site,
that is your business. What we care about is that you and your employees do not come to OUR site and post advertisements
about your site. You may answer questions, ask questions,
and participate. But you CANNOT post advertisements about
your site. If you will agree to this we will remove the blocks,
but if we get further complaints about ads and announcements
in our forums, we will have to re-instate the blocks. If you have a new care sheet, even if you have a new article you have
written about kingsnake.com, our forums are NOT the place to let the world know about it. Thats what your forums are for.
natas Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6039.html Posted At 01:21:00 07/19/2001
JeffB:
Your point is well taken :)
Youyr first issue is not even a issue to me. You said no on the banner/link to your site...thats fine (But I will continue to keep your up!)
Second point:

If you say that you will remove the block then great!

If you only allow to post events and herp related questions/answers then thats fine!

How bout we meet in the middle here. The reason why I say this is because I truly would love to inform the community when I want input on our articles. So what I figure we can do is this.

Example: I write a article for instannce on snake genetics and how they work.

If I write this article and I think is a great asset to the herp community I ask for your permission to post it. If you say no then I will not get mad...plenty of people will see it anyway :)

Anyone that answers a question and refers someone to a document located elsewhere is NOT advertising.

Cool then we should not have a problem here. If I see a question that can be answered with a caresheet or whatnot that is on my site or any other I will gladly post the link to it :)

Anyway JeffB I'm sure Lori will post something about your comments on her posts...

One other thing just a FYI to you and others I still do not get where you say that we have posted products to our site. If you are referring to our Photo Gallery then thats fine...but please also do the same for the people that posted other photo sites like yahoo or any other photo gallery.

But I will leave it at this between us.

Also if its ok with you in the future will I be allowed to use your classified for selling any babies (if I have any)?

I will agree to not post any articles to your sites forum written about reptiles (without your permission)...this includes articles from my site or any other site.

To help you with moderation i will also notify you via email whenever I see a "add" or linked article on your forum to help take the load off and make it fair to everyone :)

To also set the record straight let me start out with the first posts that I can point out to you that need to be moderated and or blocked:
http://www.kingsnake.com/forum/boa/messages/74617.html
To show the community that you are being fair please moderate this post to prove to not only me but the community that there is no dicrimination. This post does have a double edge sword though. Fred (nothing against you Fred...I loved the article) posted about a "Article" that he wrote for Reptile Magazine (which btw is awesome) which breaks your TOS as you stated before to me...but also contains Event information that is allowed. So maybe if you get time warn him or change the post up to take out the "Article" information.

FYI I'd hate to call you on this Jeff...but I just want everyone to see that you are being fair...which I have no doubt in my mind that you will be!
WebSlave Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6040.html Posted At 01:30:11 07/19/2001
Let me make a statement here.

When I first started up the Board of Inquiry, I approached Jeff about putting a link on KINGSNAKE.COM as a courtesy to people whom log on there. I felt that it would have been beneficial to the people there having problems with vendors, dealers, etc. Jeff politely pointed out to me that although he would not have a problem linking to the Board of Inquiry, if it were on it's own domain, the simple fact that it is on the HerpWantAds.com domain, which provides free FOR SALE ads (which directly competes with the PAID ads he provides), he could not honor my request.

I fully agreed with his logic, and understood his position. And never gave it another thought. With all things considered, I don't feel that the lack of a link really hindered the growth of this site, nor, in retrospect, would I have really wanted it to get any bigger any faster.

I guess what I am pointing out here is that as well traveled as KINGSNAKE.COM may be, and as much of the center of the herp universe on the internet it may be, it is not really necessary for the success of YOUR site that it be promoted there. If your site provides quality information and gives people a reason to go there, they will come, and keep coming back. And they will tell other folks about it as well. If you provide a quality site, it will grow and gather a following with or without KINGSNAKE.COM.

KINGSNAKE.COM is Jeff's site and he can make whatever rules he wants. It is not necessary for you to agree nor understand them, but you DO have to obey them if you want to use his site.

Brett Gardin aka JuliusSqueezer (RTB admin) Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6041.html Posted At 02:43:32 07/19/2001
well...I tried to stay out of all this because I have never frequented kingsnake.com other than an occasional search engine query so I didn't feel I had enough to go on but something is really standing out here and is bugging me. This whole debate sounds so much like the ever going battle against communism (or socialism for those in denial) and democracy. You can read into this statement as you wish. I refuse to elaborate to accommodate those who need everything spelled out for them. Being a proud citizen of the free world where freedom actualy means something I am thankful that I happened upon RTB first and didn't get sucked into having to walk on eggshells or who's pockets weren't being lined enough when all that is really important to me is helping people insure the wellfare of their animals and sharing experiences with fellow herpers.
Jamie Barnes Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6042.html Posted At 02:48:19 07/19/2001
See post from Julius - Amen! Wise words from the Squeezer geezer.
LORI KEHOE Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6043.html Posted At 02:58:13 07/19/2001
Jeff B..... You say...
Quote:There is a big difference. The ONLY advertising we have ever allowed to be POSTED in the forums is EVENT INFORMATION.
In 7 years of hosting forums we have always allowed events
to be posted and nothing else. (That is the answer to LORI's question)

Yet again my DIRECT question has been evasively skirted. Your "answer" was NOT to the DIRECT question placed before you. I have been accused of posting ADVERTISEMENT on your forum for REDTAILBOA.NET by yourself and others affiliated with your site. I'll try to make this clearer so that you may understand it's context. What is the name, date, time & context of the "alleged" post I have made on your site, kingsnake.com that contains CONTEXTUAL ADVERTISING for REDTAILBOA.NET? I have searched your archives and forum for such but can NOT find any post placed on your site by my person recently prior to receiving a WARNING for my post I tried to place on your site the other day. I'll even provide some clues to help out in bringing the "alleged" post[s] forward...Such post[s] would have been placed PRIOR to the one that caused the WARNING to be brought forward, YET also AFTER you stated to Morti & Shane that there were to be NO posts made on your site with REDTAILBOA.NET advertising in their context. Perhaps such can NOT be found and brought forward as it does NOT exist?? OR maybe I'm mistaken and such does exist. I'm NOT the one making this accusation. The accusation is being made upon my person, SO SHOW ME WHAT SUPPORTS THE ACCUSATION PLEASE.
I also posted on your site the following:
Can this question be answered without trying to tear apart other people and name flinging?
I guess I have my anser to this question now.....
As if it isn't enough that you have made false accusations upon my person in relation to placing advertisements in my posts on your site...NOW you have the audacity to set forth more false accusations that are of a slanderous nature ???
quote:....
When we block a web site we block the base domain name.Period.
Why? Because when we don't we have people like LORI who try to
find all the little ways around the blocks, by posting all the permutations of the domain name, or using the IP address.
1. What are you inferring in the context of :posting all the permutations of the domain name?? Do you mean such changes that make something appear as it is but in a different manner of presentation such as:
Danica...Classic Dum's 07/16/01 (2) OR
Jason...Classic Dum's 07/18/01 (0) OR
Dave, East TN Reps 07/12/01 (0)
Fred Albury(Aztec Reptiles) 07/16/01
?????? OK..Let's be NON-DISCRIMINATIVE here etc... THE "CLASSIC DUMS"..UMM...weeell I don't believe they are refering to themselves as dummies, so what could that mean on a BOA FORUM??? The "East TN Reps" & i highly doubt that Dave is announcing that he is a state representative..."Aztec Reptiles" ...I have never thought of Fred as a "reptile", nor would I assume such from this. So where does that leave us in context of these items that appear a multitude of times across your forums?? ADVERTISING ..CLEAR & SIMPLE. So I guess my inferring "That other site OR Our site" would lead people to REDTAILBOA.NET?? NOT. The person reading the post would have to allready have a knowledge basing of the site[s] I am affiliated with. BTW There are 4 of them, only one is REDTAILBOA.NET. SO If this is what you are stating...What are the other sites I am affiliated with??? This is NOT a form of ADVERTISING, which might I remind you is what I have been accused of.
Also..Quote...using the IP address. I have no control over what appears as my IP address. The server I use for ISP controls such. If there is a complaint regarding this...my ISP is earthlink.net..Please feel free to provide them with a complaint.
LORI
Jason Swe!gart Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6048.html Posted At 06:54:09 07/19/2001
"JORDAN>>> I am truly sorry to hear that, especially as an administrator of the referenced site! I don't know what to tell you at this point. WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS MORE THAN WELCOME AT OUR SITE AND I HOPE THAT YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE!" posted by Lori on kingsnake

Lori I must ask, what do you think it is? "YOU ARE ALWAYS MORE THAN WELCOME AT OUR SITE AND I HOPE THAT YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE!" those are your words fromt he kingsnake boa forum. That is plain & simple advertisement.


This to me sounds like advertisement. “CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE”(Shane sorry if I confused you, the continue to allow us to host your site was a quote from Lori that I was saying sounded like adverstisement to me. And what I was attempting to show is right here is Jeff's rules talking about hosting services.) According to Jeff in a previous post “#3 kingsnake.com does not allow other businesses whose primary businesses directly compete with its primary business (hosting services, classified ads, and banner advertising)".

I hope this can be resolved soon between everyone. Have a good day everyone!


Jason
Pat DelTurco Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6049.html Posted At 07:19:27 07/19/2001
Jason, upon further reflection, I'd like to apologize to you for my last post. It really wasn't relevant to the matter being discussed. You have your opinion, I have mine, and they differ greatly. I'd also like to apologize to Natas and Morti for providing Jason with his "cut and paste" ammunition that he posted here trying to make Redtailboa.net look bad. However, as Natas said, he runs a free and open forum. I will continue to post my feelings there until Natas or another admin. asks me not to. I still feel the same way as I posted in my RTB forum post that Jason cut and pasted here, but perhaps I could have worded it better.
Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6054.html Posted At 09:30:39 07/19/2001
Jeff, Thanks for your response. I think your terms are acceptable. I personally am ready to be done with this mess if my users will now be able to use their e-mail addresses and photo gallery pictures. You have been more than reasonable in this situation and again I thank you. You can rest assured that I will no longer link to Redtailboa.net but I may use Jason's idea of posting the Whole Article with a warning in the subject that it is a LONG post.

Again, Thanks for your help in getting this matter resolved!

-Donnie Smith, Ready to get Back To Work.
Ryan aka Captain Morgan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6055.html Posted At 09:32:10 07/19/2001
Well that was fun....I just read that entire thing and it took me like an hour it seems. Anyways, I found RTB using the search engine. I also found KS the same way. I use RTB because I find the people there are more friendly. And if something heats up the moderator's are there to put it out before that hatred between people sticks. I really don't know the whole thing. I've read posts in the boa forums and read this and still I'm kind of in wonder....I see both points. Jeff has a good site, Shane has a good site. Jeff does what he wants on his site as for his "TOS" (use that loosely) there are some grey areas he may want to take a look at. The only thing I do here is look at classifieds and the laws forum. I also saw a cool screensaver but anyways, I'm a regular on RTB. I'll always be a RTB. There is just a simple difference in Morals. I agree with Shane on a couple of things. I don't see a problem with his photo gallery thing. That's where my pics are stored and I'm proud to post my pics. It don't cost me nothing either. So far since I've been at RTB I've spent $0.00. (Yes I will be DONATING after I get back from my trip) 8)

Before I forget...CIRO....the whole Survey thing....we all know how Morti is and that's why he put that up there. It was a joke. I bought both my snakes from a Pet Store. I probably paid to much for them too but oh well. It's my money and I've always been fasinated with snakes so I got one. Couple months later got another one. Can that Pet Store show some improvements...YES. That's why I took what I've learned from RTB and volunteered my time at that Pet Store to improve the conditions so I could ensure that anybody else that went there would get a more docile snake.

Okay, now for Jeff. You have your points too. I just feel you got to touch up your TOS so you fill in the grey areas that we hit here. Do you see a problem with me, a simple user posting my pic that I have on a photo album on RTB on your site? It's just a pic. I'm new to KS and I'm going to be here more often because of the size of your sight and the feedback I can get. But that will just be classified material. If I want to learn more on snakes I'll stay at RTB. And please if you do decide to touch up those grey areas don't do it just so you can back up what you stated to keep RTB out. I think your a good man and I see your points about protecting your site. I mean, you made it. If I made something I'd protect my business too.

I hope this all gets worked out because I would like to use KS without "breaking" any TOS.

*JOKING* I hope someday RTB does surpass KS as the #1 sight and then all of us at RTB will just be smiling back on KS. I was trying to be a little funny so please nobody commit suicide!
LORI KEHOE Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6058.html Posted At 12:28:35 07/19/2001
Jason...The question was not "addressed" to your person, BUT ..what you have posted in your statement is a partial context from a post placed "AFTER" [ NOTE: see hint posted in above post placed by me] the warning appeared. It was an answer to a DIRECT question placed to ME in a post that reiterated the words/writing of another poster on Jeff's site. See my last post here to determine how this could NOT be inferred as ADVERTISING NOT allowed any more so than another poster using the same words of "THAT OTHER SITE". This is what would fall under discriminatory statutes.
When I visit kingsnake, which is rarely previously to the WARNING I received, I visit as my own person, NOT as a representative of REDTAILBOA.NET. I did NOT make posts on kingsnake previous to that WARNING, relating me to REDTAILBOA.NET. Upon receiving that WARNING, and henceforth, I tried to determine WHY my posting received such WARNING. Conclusion: Due to the fact that my pics are located/hosted by REDTAILBOA.NET.
There are 2 issues here as a result of such
1. Issues directly related to REDTAILBOA.NET on behalf of kingsnake.com.
2. Personal invalid allegations, discrimininatory actions and now an addition of slanderous accusations to my person by/on behalf of kingsnake.com.
The issues directly upon REDTAILBOA.NET seem to be at an acceptable level by the site's owner. Shane owns such site and it is his perogative to conclude these issues at a level he so desires. As an administrator of his site, I abide by what he wants and sets forth as such.
The issues directly correlated upon my own person,at a personal level, on the otherhand have NOT. Remember..I stated that I visit kingsnake.com on a personal level, NOT in an administrative level for REDTAILBOA.NET, up to such time which led to these issues being entwined on the date/time of my post that resulted in a WARNING.
IF you or others can NOT comprehend the existance of 2 seperate issues, I can NOT help you to understand such any further at this point. I shall NOT explain anything further on this matter to you Jason.
LORI
Rusty Jordan Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6075.html Posted At 18:40:03 07/19/2001
UH, Uhm....Can't we all just get along?
Let us now agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
Later, and remember God loves us all the same.
Rusty
Ritchie Luna Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6201.html Posted At 23:49:12 07/22/2001
Well I don't pay for my banner advertising on Redtail boa.

I also don't care about pet shops. Only one out of the five pet shops here in columbia SC is any good. The rest don't know what they are doing. And I have tried my hardest to educate them.......but alas I have failed.

And these words in quotes"WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS MORE THAN WELCOME AT OUR SITE AND I HOPE THAT YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW US TO HOST YOUR SITE!" posted by Lori on kingsnake"

That is not an advertisement. That is telling a guy he is welcome to a site and can always go back there..

Me telling someone to come back to my house so I can continue to cook dinner for them is not an advertisment. It is an invitation. It was being stated from one person to another.
Ritchie Luna Re: Kingsnake.com (Info, inquiry, long)
6203.html Posted At 23:54:04 07/22/2001
RitchieReptiles@aol.com

that is my e-mail addy. It somehow did not appear above
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