When a deal goes sour....

Author	Subject: When a deal goes sour....
Rich Zuchowski	Posted At 17:51:28 08/11/2001 Hopefully that jerk webmaster won't delete this post, but I think it is within the rules. I recently had a deal that went bad and I'm not sure what went wrong. I've saved all the emales and put them in a text file so I could follow them from beginning to end, and darn if I can see why it went the way it did. So I felt it would be instructive to post the whole thing here and see if someone else could spot where I went wrong. I would like to think it was just not my fault, but I'm willing to admit that maybe there was a point where I could have handled it better than I did. Without prostrating myself, of course. I had originally intended to just post a synopsis of the messages, but the message might be in the details, so I felt it best to post everything as I received it and as I sent it. If the guy mentioned in this post objects to my copying his emails, I will then ask that goomba WebMaster here to please delete the thread. I apologize for the length of this message, but there is no other way to do this. Subject: Notice of babies hatching. Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:09:49 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: Hello Mr. Zuchowski : My name is Ken, and I would appreciate it very much if you could tell me if you have any of these babies yet for sale of if they are expected as I would like to purchase them. could you please let me know as soon as possible. Thank you very much. Sincerely Kenneth Badders. 1. Hypo blood red corns. 2. Hypo Okeetee corns. 3. Amel het for butter motley corns. 4. Blizzard corns. 5. Florescent orange corns. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Zuchowski" To: "Kenneth Badders" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Notice of babies hatching. > Nothing is due to hatch until the second week of July. But by the end > of July, fully 3,000 babies should have hatched out. I should have all > of the ones you have asked about, but am not certain I will have the > Hypo Blood reds in numbers to fill the previous orders and have enough > to fill orders for people now inquiring about them. I have offered to > accept deposited orders on them, and if I do not have enough to fill the > later orders, the money will either be refunded or applied towards the > balance due on the other animals in the order. > > Thanks. > > -- > Rich Zuchowski > SerpenCo Ų rich@serpenco.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: Notice of babies hatching. Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:53:02 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: "Rich Zuchowski" References: 1 , 2 How much should I send you as a deposit on the animals you will have? Will you have any het for hypo blood reds? if so include a pair of them and let me know how much I should send as a deposit. ~Ken~ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Zuchowski" To: "Kenneth Badders" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Notice of babies hatching. > Ken, > > It may take me a while to work up a total figure and get that to you. > Got a lot going on lately. Best thing would be for you to fill out the > online order form, total up the animals you want and figure on 20 > percent for a deposit. I am still accepting deposits on the Hypo Blood > Reds, but it's an 'as available' type of thing, since I already have a > pretty good list of people whom want them. A lot depends on what comes > out of the eggs, and I won't know that until they actually hatch out. > Ų Rich Z. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: Notice of babies hatching. Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:23:38 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: "Rich Zuchowski" References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 I will do the on line thing but it usualy doesn't work for me so when I deside exactly how many I want and what the deposit is I may have to send it to you. I will wait until next year for the hypo bloods as long as you can provide me with the hypo Okeetee's. ~Ken~ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: SerpenCo Order Form Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:59:13 -0500 From: (Kenneth R. Badders) Reply-To: Ken.nhr@att.net, (Kenneth R. Badders) To: serpenco@serpenco.com Name: Kenneth R. Badders Address: 701 East 237 street #2 City: Bronx State: NY Zip: 10466 Phone: 718-324-5437 ========================================================================== Payment Information: Door MasterCard Deposit =========================================================================== Comments: I prefer it to be ship by Airborne express as my first choice otherwise use what is available. ========================================================================== Amelanistic Corns het Butter Motley: on 1.1. Fluorescent Orange Corns: on 1.1. Hypomelanistic Okeetee Corns: on 1.1. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Order Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:07:05 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: Hello Rich : I guess my order went through so I will not need to send it to you via US post office. I opted to go for the Blizzards next year also as I am getting animals from other people also and do not want to go overboard. Sincerely Ken. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Zuchowski" To: Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:08 AM Subject: Re: SerpenCo Order Form > Ken, > > Thanks for your order. Sorry about the delay getting back to you, but > I've been getting an unreal number of emails lately. I just can't keep > up with them all... > > Anyway, I'll let you know when we are getting close to a shipping date > for you. Expect that it may be sometimes towards the end of July or > early August. Depends when all of the animals you ordered have hatched > out, shed, and taken meals. > > Thanks. > Ų Rich Z. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: SerpenCo Order Form Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:05:04 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: "Rich Zuchowski" References: 1 , 2 Thanks Rich Ill be looking foward to it. ~Ken~ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Zuchowski" To: "Kenneth Badders" Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: SerpenCo Order Form > Ken, > > I'm working up a shipping schedule for the upcoming week. If possible, I'd > like to pencil you in for shipping on Wednesday, 8/08. Please let me know if > that will work with your schedule. My records show that you have paid a > deposit of $68, with a balance of $322 due as final payment. Please let me > know how you want to arrange payment of the balance before shipping. > > Thanks, > > Rich Z. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: SerpenCo Order Form Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 19:00:36 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: "Rich Zuchowski" References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 Rich : I believe you told me you "MAY" have my animals by the end of July. Your e~mail to me states you are not sure only that you will have thousands of babies by then and that you are to busy to give me the time of day. Also my records show a different balance. Here is what I have: 1.1 Hypo Okeetee's 100.00 1.1 Amel het for butter corn 150.00 1.1 Florescent orange 90.00 Total $340.00 Deposit -$68.00 Bal owed $272.00 not $322.00 as you stated. Also most breeders let me know whether they will definitely have my animals or not at least a month in advance but you didn't and I need that reasonable warning time telling me you intend to ship because there are times when I need to pay other bills and can not just send people money when I feel like it so if you can't give me to the end of September please send my deposit back and we will forget the whole thing. Thank you for your time. Ken Badders. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Zuchowski" To: "Kenneth Badders" Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 5:49 PM Subject: Re: - shipment of order > Ken, > > I went back and read all of the emails we have passed back and forth and > I guess I don't see why you have this chip on your shoulder. You placed > a deposit on the above mentioned animals, I told you that they will > likely be available at the end of July, at the earliest. There was a > question about the Hypo Blood Reds, which I was not sure I would have > enough to go around, but since you didn't place a deposit on them, I > felt it was a moot point. I let people know when the animals are > available, and your situation is no different from hundreds of similar > situations I go through every year. I don't have the time to keep in > constant contact with all of my customers (either actual or potential), > and feel that I give them as close an estimate as possible as to when > their animals will be available. I have contacted YOU to let you know > that YOUR animals are ready to ship. This is approximately when I had > estimated they would be available, and you certainly should have been > prepared for such an event taking place at this time. > > The price difference between my final tally and your tally is the cost > of shipping, which is $50. I certainly do not recall telling you that I > would ship them to you for free. Matter of fact, I can't think of > anyone in this business that does offer free shipping. > > As for me holding on to your animals, feeding and caring for them for an > additional two months, sorry, but with 4,000 eggs incubating and LOTS of > babies hatching out all of the time, I cannot do that. So with all that > said and done, I have offered to fulfill my part of tha bargain for > which you have placed a deposit for. Your animals are ready to ship > this upcoming week. If you decline to accept them, then you will be > doing so with the full knowledge that you are forfeiting your deposit. > The responsibilities of both parties are plainly stated in my Fine Print > page (http://www.SerpenCo.com/terms.html). > > Ken, I really don't know what set you off, and I'm sorry this has turned > out this way, but you are putting me in a very awkward position. I try > to be fair with everyone, but that does not include turning the other > cheek when they take a slap at me. I get dozens of emails every day, > and can't possibly keep up with them plus give status reports to > everyone whom has an outstanding order with me. If that was a > requirement you needed, then you should have plainly stated so before > placing your deposit. In which case, I would have declined your order. > You can either complete the deal or not, as previously agreed upon. > Perhaps you had a change of heart, but you did make a committment that I > expect you to uphold. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: - shipment of order Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 19:15:52 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: "Rich Zuchowski" References: 1 Rich : I read all the correspondence too and I don't see anywhere where you stated you will definitely have my animals by the end of July. You need to learn that not all people that order from you are as well off. Things come up which make it impossible to send out that kind of money at such short notice like my mother getting critically sick and I needed thousands to help her out but I thought it no ones business so I went on the assumption that you were a nice guy and would see why I need things to be accurate but you I guess don't need my business so it's get the money up or else Ken right? I have news for you your prices are very high and there are many others out there who are willing to sell for much less than you and some even have better quality. Again you did not say you would have my animals by the end of July you gave me the impression that you may and if so would contact me then to ask when I can make final payment. You should not just up and say here they are send me the balance so I can ship when I need to. If you are so busy you need to hire someone to do the correspondence for you. Also if the extra $50.00 was a shipping charge you should have stated that which you didn't I see that as very high I pay others $20.00 for a Fed Ex next day shipment ($35.00 UPS). As for the agreement you can keep the $68.00 you seem to need it more than me. Mr. Badders. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: - shipment of order Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 22:31:59 -0400 From: Rich Zuchowski Organization: SerpenCo To: Kenneth Badders References: 1 , 2 Ken, You certainly couldn't have read the correspondence very closely. I'll copy a section of text directly from the message you sent me prior to this one: > > > Ken, > > > > > > Thanks for your order. Sorry about the delay getting back to you, but > > > I've been getting an unreal number of emails lately. I just can't keep > > > up with them all... > > > > > > Anyway, I'll let you know when we are getting close to a shipping date > > > for you. Expect that it may be sometimes towards the end of July or > > > early August. Depends when all of the animals you ordered have hatched > > > out, shed, and taken meals. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Rich Z. > > > Look very closely. Notice the sentence that says "Expect that it may be sometimes towards the end of July or early August." Perhaps those words have a much different definition in your world, but in mine (and probably much of the rest of the literate English speaking public), it is pretty clear and accurate as a prediction. The shipping date was actually in early August. Imagine that. And as for the shipping charge, it is in plain view in both my on-line order form as well as my Fine Print page. Matter of fact, it is PLAINLY stated that the shipping charges for door-to-door service is $50 RIGHT NEXT TO THE BUTTON you had to click when you filled out my on-line order form. Without my actually taking your nose and putting it on the screen at the lines involved, I don't know how else to point them out to you. No one else has had a problem taking note of them and expect the shipping charge as being part of the total due for the order. You had every opportunity to determine to not place a deposit if you didn't like the shipping charges that I have to charge. You even made note on the original order form about about shipping via Airborne Express, so you certainly must have had the shipping charges cross your mind at some point. Just because you had a change of heart or a financial downturn is no reason to get pissy with me about it. Sorry about your situation, but if you will again look closely at my corresponence and the various pages of my web site, everything I have stated is as it should be. I have had situations arise in the past where personal emergencies arose and people were unable to pay for the animals they ordered and I have ALWAYS worked with those people. But they, at least, had the common decency to recognize the awkward situation and ask for my understanding and help. YOU, on the other hand, come across spitting fire and brimstone blaming your problems on me or that my website didn't grab you by your neck to make you read the lines, and then get further incensed when your invective gets me in a defensive posture spitting fire and brimstone right back at you. Had you acted like a decent human being, I would have certainly been sympathetic of your situation and tried to accomodate you. But when you kick someone in the nuts, don't be surprised if they get up and return the favor. If you haven't taken the time to check around about my reputation, then do so and see if what I have stated is not the truth. To come across claiming that I am unprofessional by not being able to tell you, to the hour, when your animals will be ready, or that I charge too much for my animals and shipping, and that other's quality is better, is not only untrue, but it is also irrational. No, I certainly don't need your money, but I do need to stick to my stated policies or I might as well just remove them from my site. Quite frankly, I am breathing a sigh of relief that I have narrowly avoided having you as a customer. Customers like you, I don't really need. Rich Z. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: shipment of order last correspondence! Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:01:26 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: Rich : It say's here that you will let me know! when you are getting close to the shipping date YOU DIDN'T LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WERE GETTING CLOSE TO THE SHIPPING DATE. > > > Anyway, I'll let you know when we are getting close to a shipping date > > > for you. It say's here EXPECT THAT IT MAY ( MAY IS NOT DEFINITE ) BE SOMETIME TOWARDS THE END OF JULY OR EARLY AUGUST NOT THAT IT DEFINITELY WILL BE Expect that it may be sometimes towards the end of July or > > > early August. IT SAY'S DEPENDS WHEN ALL OF THE ANIMALS YOU ORDERED HAVE HATCHED Do I have to enlarge your own words for you. Depends when all of the animals you ordered have hatched. NOTHING HERE SAY'S I SHOULD BE READY FOR THEM BY THE END OF JULY OR EARLY AUGUST. You should have sent me an e~mail saying that they hatched out and will be ready when they have shed and have eaten a few times or do you just send them out right away and good luck to the buyer? I had to go to my lawyer for another matter and decided to show him the correspondence we had and he agrees fully with me. Furthermore he say's you are the one going back on the deal not me since I offered to pay the balance by the end of September and you are not willing to wait that long. He doesn't find my request unreasonable since it doesn't take hardly anything to care for them for that short amount of time and I am not in your way of selling them to someone else since I don't have them. He also questions the legality of many breeders terms such as yours. However like I said if you insist on taking my money and not letting me have the extra time or an alternative like sending me one pair animals after I pay the balance on them than go ahead I'm a man and you are not the first guy who has screwed me there are not many but a few more shrewd dealers in this business who have. As for the shipping cost I believe you padded it because I have sent out many shipments in my past and large ones at that and the most it cost my customers is $35.00 DELTA freight for an eight foot boa. I asked for Airborne because they have been pretty cheap in the past but no longer allow the shipment of animals so is Fed Ex which still allows and no I didn't see the shipping cost on your site I have a lot of more important things on my mind lately and it slipped past me SO WHAT! a break down of things is what every other breeder should do prior to shipping. I always get one without asking from all the breeders I have dealt with in the past and every one of them has followed up with a phone call to make sure everything is a go ahead. In closing I heard from quite a few people that you are a nice guy and I am willing to believe that and ignore your crude remarks about my intellect but the way you do business needs much to be desired. Mr. Badders. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Part 2 follows in the next message in this thread...
Rich Zuchowski	Re: When a deal goes sour.... PART 2 7157.html Posted At 17:52:58 08/11/2001 Subject: Re: shipment of order last correspondence! Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 03:17:55 -0400 From: Rich Zuchowski Organization: SerpenCo To: Kenneth Badders References: 1 Kenneth Badders wrote: > Rich : It say's here that you will let me know! when you are getting close to the shipping date YOU >DIDN'T LET ME KNOW WHEN > YOU WERE GETTING CLOSE TO THE SHIPPING DATE.> > > Anyway, I'll let you know when we >are getting close to a shipping > date > > > for you.It say's here EXPECT THAT IT MAY ( MAY IS NOT DEFINITE ) BE SOMETIME >TOWARDS THE END OF JULY > OR EARLY AUGUST NOT THAT IT DEFINITELY WILL BE Expect that it may be sometimes >towards the end of July or > > > early August.IT SAY'S DEPENDS WHEN ALL OF THE ANIMALS YOU ORDERED HAVE >HATCHEDDo I have to enlarge > your own words for you. Depends when all of the animals you ordered have > hatched. All semantics, of course. Any other person I have sent the exact same message knew exactly what I was talking about. Just cut the crap, Ken. It's pretty obvious that you have decided to buy animals from someone else and was hoping I was a soft touch and you could get your money back. I am certainly glad you found someone willing to sell the same animals to you at a cheaper price and better quality, as you have mentioned, but it doesn't change a thing about the committment part of the deal. > NOTHING HERE SAY'S I SHOULD BE READY FOR THEM BY THE END OF JULY OR EARLY >AUGUST. You are splitting hairs, and you certainly know that as well as I do. > You should have sent me an e~mail saying that they hatched out and will be ready when they have shed >and have eaten a few times or > do you just send them out right away and good luck to the buyer? I had to go to my lawyer for another >matter and decided to show him > the correspondence we had and he agrees fully with me. Furthermore he say's you are the one going back >on the deal not me since I > offered to pay the balance by the end of September and you are not willing to wait that long. He doesn't >find my request unreasonable > since it doesn't take hardly anything to care for them for that short amount of time and I am not in your >way of selling them to someone > else since I Sure, taking care of 6 snakes is no problem if that's all you have to do in life. But I have LOTS of other snakes to take care of, and cage space, pinky mice, and time are not in infinite supply around here. Maybe it is for you, but not for me, and I am sorry you can't see my perspective in this. I do not buy animals anymore simply because those animals I buy mean they would have to take up room from animals I will be hatching out myself that I would like to keep. My maintaining YOUR snakes for an additional two months would most certainly mean that I would have 6 less cages available for animals I would rather be keeping for my own. I'm sure your attorney has no understanding of the situation and was only agreeing with his customer. Of course he will agree with you! Duh! I'm equally certain that MY attorney would agree with my point of view as well. And just how many customers do YOU juggle at one time trying to fulfill orders? I have LOTS, and to date NONE but you has had a problem with the way I do my notifications when animals are ready for shipment. They tend to understand the uncertainties involved and know that there is no way to accurately predict when animals will hatch out, when or if they will feed readily, and how many other people might be before them on the list for those animals. Quite frankly, I just don't have the time to give status reports at every step of the way with all of the customers I have to deal with. It would be impossible to predict when each and every one of the animals in each order was going to be ready to ship. If you think not, then I suggest the probabilty that you have never dealt with the number of animals and the number of customers I have. I had around 350 clutches of eggs hatching and due yet to hatch, many of them multi-heterozygous gene carriers, so there is no way to predict exactly what would be hatching out of the eggs. How would you handle notifying someone, for instance, that had placed an order for a half dozen different cultivars? A notice for each single animal that hatched out? Then another when each one has shed? And the yet another when each one has taken a meal? Just how much time do you think that sort of arrangement would take when multiplied by a couple of dozen orders from other customers? Man, get real! You have no concept at all about what is involved in this business I am doing. > don't have them. He also questions the legality of many breeders terms such as yours. However like I >said if you insist on taking my > money and not letting me have the extra time or an alternative like sending me one pair animals after I >pay the balance on them than go > ahead I'm a man and you are not the first guy who has screwed me there are not many but a few more >shrewd dealers in this business > who I fail to see how you are getting screwed. All you need to do is to live up to your committment. Tell you what, I run a message board called the Board Of Inquiry that is designed just for resolving issues like this. The easy link is http://www.BoardOfInquiry.com. Take your argument there and let's see what the general public thinks. Please be sure to read the rules, however, as they are rather strict in order to keep the board from becoming just plain chaos. You have my permission to post my emails, as you have gotten them, as long as I have like permission to post yours as well. Let's see whom is the (BAD GUY) in all this. And while you are at it, you can just post a general inquiry about me asking about my fairness, both in my SerpenCo business and as the WebMaster of that message board. > have. As for the shipping cost I believe you padded it because I have sent out many shipments in my past >and large ones at that and the > most it cost my customers is $35.00 DELTA freight for an eight foot boa. I asked for Airborne because >they have been pretty cheap in > the past but no longer allow the shipment of animals so is Fed Ex which still allows and no I didn't see >the shipping cost on your site I > have a lot of more important things on my mind lately and it slipped past me SO WHAT! a break down >of things is what every other > breeder Yes I do pad shipping, and this has been mentioned in numerous places, including my Special Messages page explaining why I have decided to do that. Airborne Express will not guarantee live delivery of my animals. I have to do it. And because of that, I have decided to charge a slight surcharge to help cover the time when I suffer loses in a shipment. I have a recent invoice from Airborne right here on my desk and what they have charged me for the last several shipments are: $29.92, $28.55, and $30.51. I buy my boxes and they cost approximately $5 each. Cool packs, labels, invoices, deli cups, packing tape and materials, etc, also add another couple of bucks to the total. So yes, I might get $10 to $15 for each shipment. What exactly should my time be worth to pack up those boxes, do the invoices, arrange for pickup, and then follow up when the inevitable problem arrises? Yeah, I'm making a KILLING on shipping! Anyway, anyone not liking my reasons or decisions is certainly welcome to not place an order with me and go elsewhere. I am doing what is best for me and my business and really don't care what other breeders are doing. They will come and go every year, but I have been around for a long time and will likely continue to do so. Just pick up a Reptiles Magazine from five years ago and take note of how many of the breeders listed in those pages are still around. > should do prior to shipping. I always get one without asking from all the breeders I have dealt with in the >past and every one of them > has followed up with a phone call to make sure everything is a go ahead. In closing I heard from quite a >few people that you are a nice > guy and I am willing to believe that and ignore your crude remarks about my intellect but the way you >do business needs much to be > desired. You got an email stating that I wanted to 'pencil in' a shipping date for you. I assumed you knew what that phrase meant. It means setting up a tentative date pending confirmation that it was suitable and acceptable to you, but subject to change if not. I like the way I am doing business, and apparently so do a lot of other people. I have never once in my life felt my goal in life should be to please everyone, and I am not about to start now. But I will make this concession for you. I will not specifically hold back the animals you have ordered, but it is very seldom that I sell out before March. If I still have your animals available at the end of September and you still want them at that time, I will honor your deposit and we can complete the deal as originally intended. If those animals are not available, then I will offer you an opportunity to choose alternates from what I have available at that time. Even at this time, if you want to just get animals that will come to the total of your deposit plus shipping (yes it will still be $50), to make a clean break of this situation, that is fine with me. Mr. Zuchowski > Mr. Badders. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: shipment of order last correspondence! Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:46:11 -0700 From: "Kenneth Badders" To: "Rich Zuchowski" References: 1 , 2 First : I don't give a SHIT! what everybody else thinks or says. Second : I haven't found someone else to sell me the exact ones that I ordered from you cheaper but then I haven't started looking yet but have seen many breeders with prices much lower than yours on so many other morphs that I am thinking about getting that it won't be hard at all. Third : It's easy for you to take my money because it's a small amount and you know it doesn't make sense for me to try to get it back. I also think you have done this many times before. I said it from the first e~mail I don't care if you keep the money I expected that from you. What I didn't expect was that you would be so sneaky as to not let me use the deposit and send you the balance for at least one pair of your high priced medium quality animals. That's right you no longer produce all the best. About the Atorney thing you may be right but I think you are wrong. I also do not think that I am the only one you have had problems with because your site even sugests that you have. If not why the picture enhancment story? Yea I heard from quite a few people that they would not buy from you because you enhance your site pictures and it looks like that to me too. Another thing 6 shoe boxes could fit anywhere it's the summer time and no heat required and pinkies are not that hard to get with all your so called babies hatching out I would think you breed your own mice. Again if you are doing so great as you brag so often about you should hire someone to help you keep things in order.From what I can see you need it sounds like you are on the verge of a break down. As far as the two months are concerned you could have given me a chance to get a pair instead then it would have not taken any time. About predicting when the babies will hatch out NO, no one can do that so all other breeders wait until they do THEN they contact their customers and tell them when they will be ready which is about five weeks depending on whether they eat right after they shed and all the breeders I dealt with also gave me a call to make shure I got the message (many of them were bigger than you) and they all knew who was the first and who was the last and everyone in between on their list if you don't again get help. You also admit padding you shipping charge that is outright theft as far as I concerned. As for posting on your forum forget it most of the people who post on those things have no life and just post to cause trouble and most do not know what they are talking about. As for keeping animals I work in a hospital for 10 hours a day and still find time to take care of 500 yea 500 rodent cages and 200 snakes. That may not be as much as you but then again I have a real productive Job. YOU GET REAL. I must state here that I believe you were trying to get my goat but it didn't work you see I have this belief that soon there will be so many smaller breeders out there selling the same animals for far less than larger breeders such as yourself that soon there won't be a need to order from you so enjoy it while you can. Fourth : You are self righteous self centered and the one who is splitting hairs and is full of crap. I proved that in in my last reply. Fifth : Do not waste your precious time sending me any more e~mails I'm not going to read them. END OF CORRESPONDENCE!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: Re: shipment of order last correspondence! Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:19:50 -0400 From: Rich Zuchowski Organization: SerpenCo To: Kenneth Badders References: 1 , 2 , 3 Thanks for the laugh! I needed that at the end of the day. But of course, you aren't reading this message, now are you? Rich Z. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Subject: You might want to read this one, Ken Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:36:20 -0400 From: Rich Zuchowski Organization: SerpenCo To: Kenneth Badders References: 1 , 2 , 3 I have never in my life 'talked' with someone like you that is so bitter about life as you are, and capable of twisting facts to fit their view of the world as you do. It would certainly be a fruitless effort on my part to point out to you how many details you have wrong in your previous email, so I'll leave you believing them, as it is of no consequence to me either way. I fully realize that you will likely find a good reason to be irritated by this as well, but I am sending you a check for the refund of your deposit in today's mail. I shudder to think of you carrying that rage inside you every day when you go to your job in a hospital where people are in need of caring and sympathetic people around them. If my returning your deposit helps reduce that rage at least a little bit, then I am satisfied with the way this ended. This matter is over and done with, as far as I am concerned, and I do not wish any further contact from you. Considering your previous emails, I am assuming this will be your wish as well. Take care. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Neil Gubitz - The Snake Pit - Tampa, FL	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7160.html Posted At 19:04:22 08/11/2001 That Jerk webmaster????? Good one, Rich! I just CAN'T believe this guy!! Is this Kenneth a REAL person, or do you just have too much time on your hands? hahaha Rich, you know as well as I, that YOU are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in what you did AND didn't do! How can ANYBODY NOT expect delivery with emails like you sent! See! That's the problem with a lot of KIDS these days, they can't understand the English language! Of course, I guess that all depends on what your definition of IS, IS?? LOL And with an attitude like his!!....He works in a Hospital??? I certainly hope none of the patients tell him that they MIGHT have to go to the bathroom in ABOUT a half hour!!! I'm SURE that he would be expecting a second and final contract!! WHAT AN ASS!! I AM GLAD you brought him to OUR attention! I've got to admit, though....sending him his money back was probably THE BEST thing you could have done! Get RID of him, and MOVE ON! I sure hope that "jerky" webmaster will allow me to call him an ASSHOLE??? Keep up the good work, Rich...it is GREATLY APPRECIATED BY US ALL! Neil
WebSlave	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7162.html Posted At 19:15:36 08/11/2001 Rich - watch it, bud. You're skating on thin ice as it is. If we ever come face to face, I'm going to have to kick your butt. Sorry, getting slap happy with all the work going on around here. ;)
Susan Willis	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7164.html Posted At 19:17:29 08/11/2001 Rich, you just proved, by sending this "person" a full refund, that you are an EXCEPTIONAL businessman! He did not deserve 1 DIME back on his deposit! Everything was stated to him very clearly in your e-mails and/or on your on-line order form. I have done business with you several times, and you have always treated me extremely well. I can understand that unexpected expenses can come up. If he had perhaps asked nicely if you could hold the snakes for awhile, and given you an addition to the deposit, you possibly could have accommodated him. But, he just started getting nasty. Hopefully, he can still sleep at night. You should be able to sleep like a baby. You were NOT at fault.
John Apple	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7166.html Posted At 19:37:01 08/11/2001 Nice to see a little comedy here Rz was right 100% Looks like KB lost a good deal Apple
steve himes	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7170.html Posted At 20:28:40 08/11/2001 Well Rich, it's like you said... some customers you really don't need, or want. I often say in the business I'm in, "they ain't customers if you haven't/can't make money off of them." Steve
Neil Gubitz - The Snake Pit - Tampa, FL	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7172.html Posted At 20:48:14 08/11/2001 Steve...Nothing personal, but I think what you said is very insulting!! Whatever line of business you ARE in, by what you just said, made you sound like..."I don't care about the customer, the product I sell, or the service I give....I JUST WANT THE MONEY! And, if I CAN'T get any money out of them...screw em!!" You MIGHT want to re-think you're way of doing business! It certainly doesn't sound like someone that I would want to do business with! I sure hope you were just trying to be funny??? Neil
hardcore reptiles	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7177.html Posted At 22:10:43 08/11/2001 i think you did the right thing in sending his deposit back ,its not that you should have but.personally i think he needs a smack in the head for making his attacks kinda personal,to me it seems that he had a alful big grude for that small amount of cash.it just dont smell right.most cases deposits are non refundable,but on a very few cases its easier to say the heck with it just shut up heres your cash. craig goldie p.s watch out for the web slave it sounds like hes got some built up rage too .lol ,good luck with the rest of the season rich
Rich Zuchowski	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7181.html Posted At 23:41:21 08/11/2001 When I got that message from him after the notification about his animals being ready to ship, I was completely baffled by his attitude. I thought for sure he had perhaps sent me an email or two and I hadn't responding, causing his irritation. I checked my email file and what you see in this thread is exactly all that I got from him. And I had responded to each and every one of them. It is not at all unusual for a day or three to go by before I get around to catching up on my email, but if that ticks someone off, well so be it. The age of instant communications doesn't mean I can drop everything I am doing to instantly respond. I still don't have a clue as to what set him off. But it's pretty obvious there is someone else in the backgroung feeding him stories about me, so there is a mystery here that will probably never come to light. Some of his info obviously has a third party as a source. Someone whom apparently has a grudge against me. There were so many things just blatantly wrong, made up, or misunderstood in his messages to me that I felt like we weren't even speaking the same language. Heck, even some of my friends are New Yorkers, so I don't think the language barrier is the cause of the total breakdown in communication. At least I am a bit reassured by the responses here that I am not just blinded by my own bias thinking I am right and he's wrong, and am really at fault in what happened. But I really don't know what to do about the deposit issue. I can't remember ever keeping a deposit when someone defaulted on an order and asked for it back. So why bother locking myself into a one way commitment? Do I just say to hell to everyone and it's first come first served when the babies hatch out? I guess that will make someone mad at me as well. Deposits help out a lot when I'm sold out of animals with little or nothing to sell, and the day to day expenses just keep chugging along. Oh, and I am NOT afraid of that WebSlave dude! He ain't nuthin without a keyboard in his hands...
M.Gandolfo	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7186.html Posted At 01:26:00 08/12/2001 Rich, this man sounds very much like several self-centered, self-righteous, egotistical foreign guys I've had dealings with in the past. There's no pleasing them unless EVERYTHING goes their way. The fact that he was not listening to you and deliberately misunderstanding you shows that he was just trying to back out of the deal. I think you've already spent more time and energy on him than he was worth, and I think the mention of his lawyer was just a bluff. It's good that you gave his deposit back, though--he's got no room to gripe now, and he certainly doesn't deserve your snakes. He'll end up getting what he pays for.
John Hedger	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7192.html Posted At 03:33:36 08/12/2001 Wow Rich ! It did seem like he suddenly turned sour! Perhaps his financial pressures caused him to be a bit nippy and rather than ask for your mercy, he instead snapped at you and became cross--he was definitely acting bitchy and immature toward you for no reason! It's customer attitudes like this that can make anyone sour about wanting to continue breeding and offering babies to the public. After all, you didn't solicit him personally to sell those baby corns...He called YOU!! He should have had most of the money together when he placed the deposit. If not, he should have asked you politely for more time to pay. Perhaps in the future, when you email a customer back you should itemize the balance and list the ship charges in an email invoice form...even though it seems any moron could figure out that there would be shipping charges. I know from my experence as a music teacher...people have to have every little thing spelled out to them over and over and over again. It seems strange but it's true! John Hedger
steve himes	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7195.html Posted At 04:57:07 08/12/2001 Neil, I'm not in the reptile business. We've got some "customers" who think it's a crime if you make a profit off of them, like Rich's shipping charge. Certain accounts we don't want to have because it costs us money to have them!! A business needs to make money. Some customers I would rather see the competition have...lol. Actually, certain accounts are so picky it really is difficult to turn a dime on them, and they never seem to be happy...I guess there is one in every crowd. Steve
Neil Gubitz - The Snake Pit - Tampa, FL	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7197.html Posted At 07:46:39 08/12/2001 Steve....NOW I understand what you mean! It's just I didn't think it called for that "blanket" statement? I agree, there will ALWAYS be someone you don't want to do business with, but you really shouldn't let one or two or even three people sidetrack your business ethics. Everybody should be treated the same way, those customers who give you a hard time, well, just don't do any more business with them! Send them packing! You CAN't please EVERYBODY! I guess I'M proof of that (if you have read the threads devoted to ME??)! Don't let one person spoil your way of thinking about all the other people that DO have good business sense... RICH....You just keep doing what you've been doing! Just cause ONE person gives you a hard time, doesn't mean you did ANYTHING wrong! I'd just forget about him altogether!
sue frederick	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7198.html Posted At 08:23:53 08/12/2001 Rich, on your order blank, do you have the $50 shipping charge labeled as a shipping AND handling charge. That is one way to explain the extra money involved. I think there was nothing wrong with the way that you handled this customer. I also agree that he was trying to weasel out of the deal and maybe make you come down on your prices by comparing you to smaller breeders. It is like comparing Macy's to KMart. You can definitely save money by going to KMart, but the quality might definitely suffer. And I don't think that Macy's is going to offer to match prices with KMart. Just my opinion as a customer. sue frederick
Brian Oakley	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7201.html Posted At 10:43:04 08/12/2001 BOY, the things I could say about this semi human FREAK! Just a few comments........In regards to lower prices from the "little guy", well I know from MY experience and from those that are like me that it is MUCH easier to price a GROUP/CLUTCH of corns (in this case) at a price that will move them. I breed them for the fun, excitement, anticipation of it all....I do not do it to make a living.....YET! So yes, this freak will find them cheeper. This freak listens and or pays attention to what he is reading worse than my 9 year old son. As someone who works in a hospitol he also knows that it does not cost the OUTRAGEOUS prices that they charge to get SOME of the things one might get in a hospitol. I can get the same treatment in some cases from a wacko on the side of a street for much less......wait, maybe this is the guy that helped me! Rich, you have MUCH MORE patience than I do. I would have told him, say around the second email, to F#CK OFF. This guy is COMPLETELY obsurd. I give you all the credit in the world for handling it the way you did. I appologize for my foul lang., but I get SOOOOO tired of hearing people bitch and moan every day. I have said it before in other posts and this one tops them all....so far. This guy is a loser and has absolutely NO RIGHT to even question this deal. A VERY IRRITATED, Brian Oakley GROW UP "MR." Badders!!!!
Corey Woods	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7202.html Posted At 10:58:24 08/12/2001 Rich, You were in the right all the way! Everything was fully stated in either the emails or on your website. Ken Badders has been in business for a while now and he should know by now how things are done. Corey Woods
Eric Burkett	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7216.html Posted At 14:27:38 08/12/2001 Regardless of what happened, Ken has always treated me right!!! I've got the best deals and quality from him. I admit, I have never purchased from Rich, cornsnakes aren't my "thing". I do agree with Ken on one point, small breeders can and do produce the same quality as ANY "big" breeder. In most of my purchases, I have gotten MUCH better prices AND quality from small breeders, than "big" breeders. Ken must have had his "New Yorker attitude" (as some of you have called it) going on!!! ERIC
Brian Oakley	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7217.html Posted At 14:46:36 08/12/2001 For me personally, I am not suggesting Ken is not a nice aguy and does not have nice animals/service. I think you will agree though that ALL of this could have been avoided had he read Rich's policies. IF he DID, then I REALLY do not know what the arguement is. I NEED TO APPOLOGIZE (in hind sight), I came across a little harsh on my post, but the things people say and do around here (or I should say to get on here) are just rediculous. In Ken's situation, I feel for the heartache he was going through with a family member (?), as I am sure Rich does also. Ken is arguing over anything he can grasp. I think the deal was pretty cut and dry from BOTH parties until Ken heard the animals were ready to be shippied. REGARDLESS of why the money could not been gathered does not mean the world should stop. B Oakley
Walter Hudson	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7225.html Posted At 17:34:18 08/12/2001 Rich, You might have lost a deal here but ...........GAINED A LOT OF RESPECT FROM YOUR CUSTOMERS AND "WOULD BE" CUSTOMERS. Such an excellent customer service youve got and "Patience"... Walt
Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7265.html Posted At 05:09:10 08/13/2001 Seems like a cut a dry case to me! You were definitely in the right Rich. I don't know either of you, but reading the e-mails definitely sums it up for me. It seems as he was hiding behind some financial troubles and thought he would get fired up instead of just coming out and telling you. Firs of all, he tells you, "NOTHING HERE SAY'S I SHOULD BE READY FOR THEM BY THE END OF JULY OR EARLY AUGUST.", when you plainly said EXPECT THEM LATE JULY OR EARLY AUGUST. Second, he said, "YOU DIDN'T LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WERE GETTING CLOSE TO THE SHIPPING DATE.", when you plainly wrote him on 8/4 to inform him that you would be shipping 8/8. What more does this guy want? Not to sound too mean, but this case sounds a little psychotic to me! All I can say is WOW! He's marked out of my book! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles
Tom Chiang	this is long thread... 7269.html Posted At 07:57:49 08/13/2001 i've dealt with both guys (rich and kenny) and they're both straight up. kenny is probably going down to maryland with me for the mid-atlantic show and you guys can settle your differences then. kenny has the weight and age advantage but rich has more muscle mass. it's a toss up:) i'll be taking bets soon. hahaha... just kidding. anyways, since i decided to add to this silly disagreement i'll respond to your request kenny. the hamburg show wasn't all that. it was about as good as the last one. someone had a exceptional male mottled band rock but wanted $275 for it. i told you what i bought and i call carl stalnaker jr. up and he said nothing exceptional but some sunglow albinos if you're interested. and yes, i have an extra female okeetee for you.
john albrecht	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7278.html Posted At 09:18:47 08/13/2001 After the snippy message from the customer i was sure that someone was playing a joke on you. after reading further i realized that the customer WAS the joke. It is worth it to refund the deposit to not have anything to do with this person.
fliptop	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7282.html Posted At 11:19:51 08/13/2001 Man, I was hooked on the OJ thing many many years ago, never soap operas, but now this board of inquiry thing is like pudding pie to a fat kid. Lovin' it! RZ, whatever beef you've got with the webmaster, maybe deal with it outside of here, but don't make him stop this, no sir, no way. And be nice to him/her so he/she lets you post from time to time. Andy Fotopoulos.
Michael Heinrich	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7284.html Posted At 11:28:27 08/13/2001 Hi Rich, I think you were 100% in the right. All this guy wanted to do is change his mind and STILL be able to get his deposit back. I'm one of the "little guys" in reptile breeding. This year I had at least 2 dozen people reserve babies while the eggs were still incubating. ONLY 2 OF THEM ACTUALLY PURCHASED WHAT THEY RESERVED! Next year I may just start asking for deposits. That's the whole purpose of deposits, to keep people from changing their minds before their snakes are ready. Mike Heinrich www.boakingdom.com
Dave Hachey	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7290.html Posted At 12:17:38 08/13/2001 I think you guys are being a little hard on Kenny. I _barely_ know him, but he strikes me as neither inflamatory nor dishonest. First off, and don't forget this as you read the rest of my message, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ANYTHING RICH DID, and it was VERY HONORABLE of him to return the money. I think alot of this could have been avoided had a quick phone call been made -- I think the conflict in this interchange was inadvertantly escalated by Rich misreading the "tone" Kenny's email of 9/4 -- I certainly didn't (objectively) read anything suggesting that Kenny had "a chip on (his) shoulder" or was "set off". Now I don't blame Rich for this or the spiral that happened as a result -- he surely deals with many conflicts and probably is (rightly) predisposed to being cynical. And I also understand that it is way too much to expect dealers/breeders to make phone calls everytime an issue arises. I guess my point is that when reading an email, people in general should try to avoid getting defensive/confrontational. Email communication is great in that it is black and white, but is poor in that shades of grey are difficult to discern and sometimes an interpretation of a message depends as much on the emotional state of the reader as it does on that of the writer. Kenny was in the wrong, but for people to label him a "loser", and a "self-centered, self-righteous, egotistical foreign" guy is a little harsh. He made a deal in which he didn't adequately read the policies. He asked for his money back, which he was not entitled to but which hardly makes him a "loser" or dishonest -- most people would figure it was worth a try in his circumstances. And both Rich and Kenny exchanged heated emails, one not neccessarily any worse than the other. Note, to the best of my knowledge, Kenny was willing to accept that his money was lost and never threatened to slander Rich -- who's to say that if Kenny had posted his side of the story first you guys might be here calling Rich bad names? I hope these guys meet in Maryland in September and bury the hatchet.
Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7297.html Posted At 14:50:11 08/13/2001 Rich, Long ago when I was waiting tables for a living, I got a customer that I felt I had done everything right for. After his meal was over, he made me a list of things that he deamed unacceptable and demanded to see my manager. When my manager Lane came out, after listening to this guy tell of how important he was, Lane said something that I will never forget if I live to be a thousand. "Sir, I run an establishmet here that gets 6,000 customers per week. I'm going to comp your dinner, but we do not need your future business." That is one of those business laws that is hard to get around. When you are on top and have a big customer base and a big reputation, you really won't be hurting too bad when you lose that one customer that you probably didn't want in the first place. My point is, Don't sweat this one. There are plenty more out there. [/rant]
jeff pfeifer	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7301.html Posted At 16:55:14 08/13/2001 I have to agree with Rich, also. I think Kenny made some assumptions in his mind from the correspondence. It sounds like he ASSUMED that the snakes wouldn't be ready until late August or September so he wasn't ready for them in early August as Rich predicted. People should always read the terms or "fine print" sections of web sites or price lists. If you don't agree with the terms order from some one with terms more to your liking. I don't agree with Rich's shipping costs either, but it's his perogative to charge them. If I don't like it I don't have to order from him. Lastly I must agree with a couple of the posts taking exception to the name calling and jumping to conclusions on some ones character. We don't personally know these people (in most cases) so who are we to judge. jeff pfeifer
Michael Tashman	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7355.html Posted At 02:50:12 08/14/2001 Well i had the pleasure of hearing the other side of the story in a 3 way conversation that included Ken Badders myself and another party. Let me point out that i've never done business with Mr. Badders nor is he a personel friend of mine, i have done business with Rich, and hes a straight up guy. i definetly think there was some misunderstanding of Rich's polices on Ken's part, and that was unfortunate. However Rich may have jumped the gun here too. I dont see where Ken had this chip on his shoulder or came out spitting fire and brimstone. I think a phone call from Ken explaining his unforeseeable problem and the debt it created, Rich would had worked out some sort of arrangement. Rich im sure, is not cold hearted Pr*ck. The lack of communication after the misunderstandings only snowballed into digs and sarcasams. I think "Dave Hachey's" post hits the situation right on the head. I think alot of people will jump on the Rich is "God" bandwagon, maybe hoping for a little treat somewhere down the yellow brick road here, but after reading it twice and hearing Ken' side of the story, it really was just some misunderstandings compiled with a personel problem.
Rich Zuchowski	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7408.html Posted At 16:54:59 08/14/2001 Just in case everyone didn't get the joke about me being so harsh on the WebSlave, please email me or one of the regulars here to explain it to you. After reading this thread over, I think someone not knowing the joke could get the wrong impression. I do have a lot more I could say about this whole thread, but to be honest, it's a dead issue with me. As far as 'burying the hatchet' at the Mid Atlantic Show, there is no hatchet. He has decided to go his way, and I mine. This is just a deal that failed, and it certainly wasn't the first, and won't be the last. I don't hold grudges and I don't wish anyone ill will because of stuff like this. My whole reason for posting it was to see if I was too close to the forest to be able to see the trees. Thank you all. Rich Z.
Kenneth R. Badders	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7503.html Posted At 19:10:10 08/15/2001 I felt since Rich thought it right to post my personal correspondence for all of you to see and have a laugh (I don't think it was right it was childish) I thought you should know where I was and am coming from since a lot of you think you know me well enough by these few correspondence e~mails to throw so many insults at my personal. First I want to say that yes I do work in a hospital but in the ICM, for those who don't know what that stands for it is the cancer research department we do testing on blood samples we do not take care of patients so those of you including Rich, also have read the correspondence and came to the wrong assumption you see how easy it is? Second I want to say that I re read all the correspondence and now believe that Rich, is right but not 100%. because he says he may have my animals by the end of July not that he will so yes the guy who said I thought I had more time was right I did think this I didn't take it seriously when Rich, said expect that it will be sometime towards the end of July or early August. That's were things started to get confusing I think so I'm very sorry almighty king of corns. Third I want to tell the guy who thinks I am a stupid kid that I am 48 and have been breeding snakes since 1972 I put up a web site in 1989 which is called New Horizons Reptiles, http://members.tripod.com/nhr_98/ it used to be on Kingsnake.com. I breed mainly high end boas, and pythons, like albino ball and boas like hypo boas and ghost balls like axanthic balls and double het boas etc. If you go to my site you will see almost if not the same terms that Rich, has but I have never really enforced them on anyone as a matter of fact in all these years I have been doing this I have given away more than 700 animals mostly het balls and hundreds more at ridiculous prices to people who simply could not afford them but were in desperate want of them and it didn't kill me to do so. Anyway I did ask Rich, for my money back at first but then later told him to keep it after reading his terms page and I expected him to keep it as it does say that in his terms but he sent it back anyway I think to show he was the bigger man on his forum and to boost his ego a bit not trying to be insulting here but I can't see why else. Anyway It says that in most reptile site terms pages. Now the rest of this gets pretty personal and pains me to tell it but it looks like I need to say it and that is I am not 100% in the head these days because my mother has two kinds of cancer and is not going to be with me much longer and this is why I probably have not been able to get the correspondence perfectly strait I didn't think I needed to tell Rich, this for two reasons first it is no ones business and second a friend of mine told me to just tell Rich, I need more time that he is a very good guy and will understand again I apologize I could have worded it better that's what I get for listening to others. Rich, if you need proof of what I am saying here your very good friend Mr.Vinny Ritchie, will be more than happy to fill you in and I think he is going to do just that at the Maryland, show because even though he also thinks I am partly wrong he also thinks you are too and you know he does not care who we are to him friend or foe when it comes to the truth he is going to tell it like it is. Another two people who can vouch for my situation are Russ Lockenwitz, of RL reptiles, and Vic Martino, of eSerpents, My mom was the reason for going to our lawyer (and who cares if that guy who said it was a bluff belives this or not) to get all her things in order before she passes on and I just happen to ask him about the terms thing and we went to my site and yours and he told me my terms which are not any different than Yours are illegal in N.Y. and probably in most other states because no one is in the right to take and keep someone else's deposit for something that is stock. However they can if it was custom designed for the person ordering though because you can't change back something that has been altered and this rule is for anything believe it or not. So now I am taking her to four doctors every month and working ten hours five to seven days a week for what I believe is little money I am not a doctor and never claimed to be one. Rich, I probably was also wrong in saying to you that you would not give me the time of day but that is the impression I got when you said you were very busy and also gave me the impression that I couldn't call you either which I wanted to do again maybe I shouldn't have felt that way or should I?. Now August 04 is when you started talking down to me and throwing out that so called fire and brimstone attitude of yours which I hear is pretty famous. Anyway you told me off instead of offering me a chance to call you or to get at least a pair of the original order and a couple of weeks to send the balance to you. You said if I decline all of them I will forfeit my deposit period. That was your solution it was a get up the rest of the money or else deal and it wasn't fair to me and I still don't think so. The rest of it was all insults so I passed it up. Rich, if you would have just said Ken give me a call and we will settle it over the phone or simply given me the opportunity to pay the balance for two animals this would not have happened and I don't believe you would see this as unreasonable. As for the shipping well I commented on that even though you have a right to charge what ever you want because by this time I was pretty angry with the whole situation. As for the rest of the correspondence that's a bunch of drivel we sent to each other. Now in closing I think if anyone of you were in my situation you would not be 100% in the head either. Now to say something short about the people who posted those negative things about me. Donnie, go back to waiting tables because you don't know a dam thing about this business. Corey Woods, I think after all the correspondence and phone calls I made to you would know me better and tried to paint me in a little better light. Patrick Hughett, you ask what more do I want I will tell you what I wanted a reasonable amount of time I got only about one week if you read it right. John Hedger, I don't ask for mercy from anyone. Hardcore you are the stupid one here. As for the ones who sided with me or sort of did thank you very much for your support as for the rest like I said I don't care what you others think I don't have to live with you. Now in closing I say to you all have a good laugh you heartless bastards it's on me. Kenneth R. Badders.
Russ Lockenwitz	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7511.html Posted At 20:58:38 08/15/2001 Wow, that all took awhile to read and I am like man...What just happened and to see my name in Kens post caused me to come to his defence. I would like to start by saying Yes, Ken's mother is very sick as the matter of fact I purchased most of his boas and ball pythons because he needed money for her care. As for Rich giving he little notice, that could have been handled a little better by both parties but things got way out of hand with the emails back and forth. I have always given my customers ample notice of shipping dates. This to me means if I have to wait 3-4 week for payment then so be it, but then again I do not produce 3000 corn snakes either. We produce animals but no where near that many but we do sell Vision cages and we are tight for space when our orders arrive. When I call most people they are ready (they start to save but others are not so ready) I wait. Another thing that I do is simply not accept deposits. I have waiting lists but again I don't produce 3000 corn snakes either. wow, I am rambling so I will get to my point. Ken Badders is not only a customer of mine but a true friend that has watched my business grow over the years and has been there every step of the way. He has himself had a successful business that he had to disolve because of his mothers sickness. This is frustrating for him I am sure and I think that things have gotten out of hand. Rich (I don't know you from adam) but it seems like you have one hell of a business and keeping 6 corn snakes until Ken had the funds would not have killed you one bit (again, perhaps it would have)....Were you just mad at him for talking back? The past is the past and we can look forward to more pleasent things. Russ Lockenwitz
M.Gandolfo	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7521.html Posted At 00:49:49 08/16/2001 Ken, I can sympathise with what your going through, as my own mother died of cancer. But Dave Hachey is right when he says that shades of grey don't necessarily come through in e-mails, and intentions or purposes are easily misunderstood. You needed to explain your reasons to Rich a little better so that he could understand your problem. He sounded frustrated because he DIDN"T understand your sudden change of heart, and it violated policies that he had set up to avoid problems. There was no way that he could know your situation, or try to work out a suitable compromise unless you talked to him and explained. At least now maybe you guys have cleared the air a little. Dealing with an illness like cancer can be devastating. I wish you well.
John Hedger	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7527.html Posted At 03:01:48 08/16/2001 Ken, I am not a heartless bastard having a laugh at your expense! I'm not laughing at all, I was just trying to understand exactly how this deal went sour. It seemed obviously to be that August4 email from you to Rich where you seemed to lashing out at him for hatching your requested babies too early. You really didn't have to use that tone in your email. You could have politely said "Hey Rich, Look, an unforseen situation has arisen where it may take me a week or so to get the balance of your money together. Could we please hold off a bit on shipping until I can send you the balance? If not, I understand, just keep my deposit and perhaps we can hook up in the future." Then it would be up to Rich to respond and hopefully work with you! This reminds me of the recent deal I did with Kevin of NERD for his primo pair of amazon tree boas which I felt I couldn't live without. I had already paid for one male in full plus shipping, and really wanted this other more expensive pair sent in the same order. He didn't know me well at all, and when I called I asked him if he would take a deposit on the pair as I couldn't quite get the money together for a few weeks, (waiting on an end of semester college teaching check). I would have fully understood a refusal and was surprised to hear him say "Sure, no problem, just send me a couple of hundred bucks deposit!" He didn't have to, but worked with me patiently on the payment and sent the snakes when the balance was paid. I respect him, he respects me...I'm sure, as we both came through with our part of the deal! No problem! You work with me -- I'll work with you! How hard can that be brother?!! Take Care and Happy Herping!, John Hedger
Kenneth R. Badders	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7568.html Posted At 17:16:59 08/16/2001 Hello : Mr. Gandolfo and Mr. Hedger. I believe you are both right and will keep all of your points in mind when doing Business in the future. Thank you for the advice. Ken.
Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7625.html Posted At 16:34:56 08/17/2001 Mr Badders, I do apologize that you seem to have taken offence to my post. The point that I was attempting to make there is that when people are rude, they recieve rude treatment. I do not understand how you can take what I said to mean that I "don't know a dam thing about this business." Sir, I do not know you personally nor have I ever had a business transaction with you. I do know that Rich is among the top breeders in the corn snake market. Perhaps this makes my perspective slightly less than perfectly objective. I do, however, feel that if you are prone to lashing out at people like you just did at me, then perhaps a customer service environment like waiting tables may not be right for you. I am glad you have found your niche among the test tubes. As far as me going back to waiting tables, I have found something that is more profitable and that I am happier doing that does not involve breeding snakes. I am a hobbiest and a consumer in the reptile business. Laughter at your expense? I was not laughing then nor am I laughing now. With utmost sincerity I do hope that you can get your problems sorted out. In the interim please try to avoid taking your problems out on those you do business with. -Donnie Smith.
Kenneth Badders	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7886.html Posted At 16:38:21 08/20/2001 Donnie : Stuff your opinion you still have me and this situation wrong.
Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7934.html Posted At 17:07:40 08/21/2001 I have noticed a running trend on this web site: Provide those people who are wrong or brittle with a rope and they will hang themselves.
Todd Reynolds	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 7960.html Posted At 02:53:52 08/22/2001 I have been reading so many of these messages and I think that you folks need to deal with it with more of a business approach. I see two men getting into a swinging genitalia confrontation instead of a business confrontation. If you want a product be prepared to pay for the product when available. If you offer a product at least try to follow the rule of the "customer is always right". You needn't prostrate yourself but never get into the verbal sparring session that went on here. Reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Just as we the customer can reserve the right to take business elsewhere. If this were a face to face deal what would it have become? A brawl? The none personel effect of email shouldn't let the businessman become less professional/businesslike. Nor should it let the customer manipulate wording to his own end. I'd give the guy his deposit back. Eat a little crow over butting heads and get on with your great business.
sssteve~~< J	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 9260.html Posted At 21:02:46 09/20/2001 MAN!!! for someone that does cancer research and once bred all those expensive balls,could afford an order like that without complaining of prices and shipping charges.As for Rich's prices,sure the high end corns are pricier,but you will find other breeders,dealers wanting more...As for the sick mother (sorry if it's the truth)that is one of the oldest lines... So bad mouthing Rich will not work,because anyone that has done business with him are always satisfied customers.He is a very honest business person...he is not out to rip anyone off...
Robert Hill	Re: When a deal goes sour.... 9329.html Posted At 11:36:11 09/23/2001 As a small time breeder of several gecko species, tortoises, and a few snakes, I fully agree with Rich in this situation. Although I RARELY accept deposits on animals, when I DO, I expect the buyer to be prepared to pay for the animals WHEN THEY ARE READY, not when he/she thinks they can scrape the money together. Although I always try to work with people, I am not especially willing to work with people who put money down on an animal. I know this sounds backwards, but if they have enough interest and the funds to put money down on an animal a couple of months or weeks in advance, then they should STILL have the funds and interest to make good on the deal when the time comes. Those animals still have to be fed and maintainted until the buyer pays for them, and I am losing out on several buyers who have money in hand. That is the whole point of putting down a deposit, TO HOLD A PRODUCT UNTIL IT IS READY FOR PURCHASE, NOT UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO BUY IT. And no, I will not refund a deposit unless under EXTREME duress. And Rich, that is why I think you went way above board in refunding Kenny his money at all. That is the sign of good business. Kenny, I am sorry to hear about your situtation and about your mother. I am not heartless, but I will say this... "My mother is sick and I can't pay you because I am caring for her(or some variation)" is one of the oldest lines in this business used to weasel out of a deal. I am not calling you a liar at all as I fully believe that your mother is in a bad way, but if you have been in this business as long as you have, you should know by now that saying your mother is ill(and especially in the curt argumentative way you did say it in your e-mails) doesn't hold alot of ground in this business. I have personally had over a dozen customers back out of deals because of a sick relative, and only in two of these cases was it actually true and/or believable. Sending a polite e-mail stating your situation would have been better suited than flying off of the handle because your animals were ready now and you weren't. Anyway, that was my two cents worth. This thread is so old noone will probably read this anyway, but I had to voice my opinion on this situation. Best to all.

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