| Author | Subject: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!! |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles | Posted At 18:16:52 08/30/2001
I posted about this person who wanted some bush vipers from me about a week or so ago, that I refused the sale to. He wrote me over and over, asking me question after question on these snakes. He wrote me 53 e-mails within 24 hours with nothing but questions, repeated over and over. I felt that he wasn't capable of dealing with a venomous snake...especially one with no anti-venom...and refused the sale. Either he is lying about his age (he told me 22), or he is just unstable in the head. It may be both. Anyway...He just wrote me again today, after I refused the sale of my bush vipers, wanting to buy my Naja Naja...one of the deadliest cobras on earth! This kid is persistant! I just wanted to post this again to make all of you HOT dealers and keepers aware that this guy might try to buy something off of you. He shopped my price on the bush vipers and told me he found a better deal from Mark Lucas. I am glad I wrote Mark before he sold them to this kid. I just hope I can get to anyone else that he may contact. This kid, in my opinion, is not capable of handling venomous. It's the people like this that get new laws made, that restrict the responsible HOT keepers from keeping their HOTs. I still don't know this person's name, but his e-mail address is Xyzop2@aol.com. I just don't need 1 or 2 hundred dollars enough, to have selling a deadly animal to this kid on my concience! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| John Staursky |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8447.html Posted At 19:39:29 08/30/2001 Patrick, Thanks for posting this... this is really scary man! Who knows what he wants a venomous snake for, you never know these days what a kid is going to do. Unfortunately, it's just a matter of time until he gets hold of some greedy dealer that sells to him and then I'm sure we will all hear about it on the news. On the other hand, with that weird e-mail name it could be one of these guys that argues with you on this board screwing around with you. Someone with a lot of time on their hands could be doing that, they can have up to 7 names on each account. Either way, if it is a kid, I hope he doesn't get hold of any hots. Take care, John Staursky |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8449.html Posted At 20:13:04 08/30/2001 Well I hated to do it, but I had to trick him. I told him I would send him some caresheets on venomous (although I don't have any), if he would send me his name, address, and phone number. I won't post all of it, but if you have been contacted by this person, I will send all his information to you if you need it. His name is Lewis Baker Jr., and he lives in PA. Watch for this person. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Jackie Lapradd |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8456.html Posted At 00:21:32 08/31/2001 I have been contacted by Lewis also regarding him wanting to purchase a Banded Gila hatchling. After talking to him for some time he seems like an o.k. guy. He states that he already owns several HOTS and is looking to add to his collection. I think he is just a little overzealous in trying to get all the info he can from people who keep/sell the animals he is interested in. Can that really be bad? Obviously Patrick, I have no idea what all of the emails were about and over 50 emails does seem quite excessive but if it was anything like my dealings with him I think a little understanding is in order. Did you offer to have a phone conversation to answer any questions he might have? |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8457.html Posted At 00:37:52 08/31/2001 Funny...He told me he hasn't had any experience with HOTs. The closest thing he's had is his ex roommate had a diamondback once. That was it! That's why I posted this. Sounds like you've been taken by him. He knows I'm onto him and he knows that I contacted Mark Lucas also. I'm sure he will tell anyone from now on that he has experience with venomous. Trust me...I'm not just an ass about answering questions. I answered everyone of them until I felt that they were rediculous. He asked me 3 times within 24 hours, what size cage do they require. I answered every time. That is a little extreme for me. If you feel you want to sell him vens, go ahead, but it's people like that that get new laws made up that restricts others to keep theirs. I'm telling you...This guy is on a mission to obtain a HOT! I will be happy to forward all e-mails to you confirming that he hasn't had HOT experience. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| ERIC |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8464.html Posted At 08:41:39 08/31/2001 In my opinion, he must be a kid. Since it's NOT illegal to keep hots in PA, he could purchase venomous at the many herp shows in that state that does sell them. just my 2 cents. ERIC |
| billie garr |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8466.html Posted At 09:15:56 08/31/2001 My hats off to Patrick. Its people like him that aren't just ready to sell to anyone to make a buck thats keeping this hobby and buisness on the up and up. Thanks Patrick. Billie.. |
| Jackie Lapradd |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8469.html Posted At 09:48:19 08/31/2001 Hey Patrick, Thanks for the responding. I apologize if I put you on the defensive with my reply(I did not mean to). After talking to him several times I don't truly believe he is in the market for HOTS anyway. After I told him my Gilas sold for $1500.00-$2000.00 he quickly changed the subject! He has since mentioned getting a different species every day I've talked to him. I truly feel that he is a young man who is very interested in HOTS and tries to strike up conversations with people involved with them so he can partake in the joy of owning these animals. I do think he should drop the pretense of buying animals and just tell people he is interested in discussing them. So far he has been a polite young man and I am certainly willing to share my info with him. As far as telling me (and others)he already owned other venomous animals I can only say that I remember being young and trying to fit in and impress my peers with my knowledge and experience. When I look back on it I'm sure I looked like a complete boob to.(LOL) By the way this is a very informative sight. It has kept me from making some potentially bad deals! Jackie Lapradd |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8505.html Posted At 21:45:01 08/31/2001 Thank you all for responding. Jackie, I apologize as well for jumping. I do know he is wanting to buy, because he was going to send me a money order for the bush vipers. I am just glad I kept talking to him to reallize that he doesn't need them. I almost sold them to him. Like I said, he has also inquired about buying my Black Paks, and I heard he was on the Venomous Forum looking to buy some cobras there too. This kid will eventually get something from someone. I just hope it doesn't end up in tragedy! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Jess |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8563.html Posted At 23:04:14 09/01/2001 Patrick, He also contacted me about my Gaboon's. I told him that I had already sold them. Thank's to your earlier post. You saved me alot of trouble. He just didn't seem like he had any idea of what he was getting into. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8571.html Posted At 08:18:03 09/02/2001 Wow....This kid wants some deadly stuff...especially for a FIRST HOT!...Although, I don't really see anything wrong with a baby gaboon as a first hot, I just wouldn't recommend to start with a larger one...You just need a little common sense when starting with any of them. With the questions repeated over and over, that he asked, I just didn't see that he had any common sense...that's what's scary about him. Why can't he want to start with a white lip tree viper or something?...lol Or, even as bad as I don't like to recommend them for first hots, a Mangrove snake or something like that...at least he would live!!?? But just my luck...He wants to start with Gaboons, Black Pak Cobras, and Bush Vipers that have no anti-venom...lol I'm glad I could keep you out of trouble there Jess! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8572.html Posted At 08:39:26 09/02/2001 I just want to make it clear that I think he's a nice enough kid. I just question his age (22), and also his mentality to keep a deadly animal. I also want to make it clear that I started this post, not to make fun of, or put the guy down. I just wanted to, as Jess said, keep all of you HOT dealers and owners out of trouble or a potential lawsuit, as I just did see this person fit to keep something like he was asking for. I believe that being a HOT keeper and dealer, myself, I have a right to try to stop something like this, because not only is it detrimental to this person's health, that I would care about, but also detrimental to my ability, as well as all other HOT owner's ability, to keep their animals, should any new laws come about from a mishap of someone getting bitten from stupidity or lack of common sense........Sorry for the run-on. lol I just wanted to post this so some of you out there wouldn't think that I was just trying to be an ass about this. I really do care about this person getting bit by something like that, and I care to keep my HOTs as well. I am also not trying to be hypocritical, because my first HOT ever was a pair of baby Monocled Cobras. Now I find myself not recommending elapids of any kind as a starter HOT! I guess I learned from experience and want to pass it on. Since then, I've handled Mambas, Taipans, Easterns Brown, King Browns, Forest Cobras, etc., and was very confident in doing so. Although, I really don't guess it matters what type of snake you start with...as long as you are prepared for what could happen, and you are confident enough to handle such an animal, without being too cocky. Before someone pipes in here and tells how long I've worked with HOTs...I'll go ahead and say it. It's been right at a year now! Again...I would never recommend working with the animals I listed without much longer experience. Anyway, I felt that I should get that out of the way before someone jumped on me for jumping on this kid wanting Gaboons or whatever...lol Until next time.................................. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8583.html Posted At 14:36:48 09/02/2001 Let me relay a little story to you... About ten years ago, I had a transaction with a gentleman who seemed otherwise qualified and was able to answer questions regarding his qualifications to my satisfaction. The snake which he received was a neonate eastern massasauga. After selling him the snake, I thought nothing more of it... until the very same man was on the evening news. It seems that he was not as responsible as he presented himself. It seems that he chose to house the snake in a lidless five and a half gallon aquarium. Once again- LIDLESS. The aquarium was kept in the common area of his house, and he had a two-year old daughter. Needlesss to say, it wasn't long before the child reached in to touch the "pretty snake", and received a full bite. Fortunately, she recovered fully from her father's series of judgemental errors. The point that I am trying to make, is that you can never be too careful when selling hots. By choosing to err on the side of caution, Patrick has made a very wise choice. Passing up a $100-200 sale is a far better than learning after-the-fact that the snake that you sold to a unqualified individual ended up biting someone. |
| Lewis Baker |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8693.html Posted At 00:12:05 09/05/2001 Thank you for slandering my name in the HOT community Patrick. And as for the trickery. Come on your a grown man and shouldn't have to stoop to such levels, as to trick somebody into giving you information. If you are really wanted to know you could've asked like a man.Your doubt on my age is based on no factual information at all. You say i asked alot of questions, as a person that hadn't owned an atheris squamiger I was doing what any smart person would do and ask the person selling me the animal questions about it aas to not end up on the news. You say you don't want to slander my name but the damage has been done. If there are absolutely any doubts as too my age i'll send my birth certificate. And as to you calling me dumb, as an experinced delaer of hot reptiles you should always ask for some form of ID, and never say you'll ship to my door becuase that is illegal. You told me don't tell them whats in the box or anybody for that matter that is very professional and very safe Patrick! |
| Lewis Baker |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8696.html Posted At 00:56:17 09/05/2001 p.s Patrick who knows where else you've tried to make me llok bad! As a person who owns herps you know how it is to get them if 1 person gives you a bad rep! |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8709.html Posted At 11:28:35 09/05/2001 Lewis, Let me say a few things here. First of all I NEVER called you dumb! Second, I NEVER said it was professional or safe to ship door to door. Third, you told someone (Jackie) that you had several HOTs and that you wanted to add to your collection, when you clearly stated to me that the only experience you had was an ex roommate of yours having a diamondback...THAT'S IT! Fourth, I was a grown man and told you myself that I wouldn't sell to you! Fifth, I believe I was right in posting here to warn others of the potential danger of selling to you. I think that if you have to ask what size cage to put them in, THREE TIMES within 24 hours, you don't need these animals! Did you not read my responses?...Did they go right past you, or did you just have to see if I was going to change my answer? You asked me if I thought they were going to mate!?? How do I know??? I understand concern when buying HOTs...especially your first, and I answered every question you had until that third time you asked me what size cage they needed. I was professional and gave you sound information and advice. However, the questions you were asking just didn't add up. I will not take my posts back and I, for one, will not sell you any HOTs. Just for the record...Being that you've never owned HOTs before, why are you wanting some of the deadliest snakes in the world?...Black Paks, Gaboons? Seeing your posts on the forum wanting cobras, then hearing from all the people you've contacted, lying about owning HOTs just so someone would sell you something, then you trying to get me into a bidding war with Mark Lucas over the price of our Squamigers, leads me to believe that you, my friend, are the childish one here. Regardless of what your intentions are, it appears that you are in a desperate search for a HOT from anyone that will sell it to you, and you don't care what it is. If you didn't keep on and keep on with your repeated questions, you would already have your HOTs, and who knows...maybe a fang in the finger? Do you know that I have had Atheris Squamiger literally jump off branches when they have struck at me? What would you do if you got bit by something like this with no anti-venom available for this species?...especially since you haven't had any experience with HOTs before...you wouldn't even know what to expect, and it would be impossible for me, anyone else, or any caresheets to tell you everything! I feel very good about my decision and will not go back on it just because you can prove your age.....which, by the way, I didn't call you a liar there either. I said, "I question" your age. Get your facts straight before piping in on something that just might save your life. Sincerely, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| brittney latil |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8723.html Posted At 18:16:20 09/05/2001 geez... |
| Lewis Baker |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8727.html Posted At 18:49:45 09/05/2001 No see Patrick one day when somebody asks for HOTS and you send them through the mail doo-to-door, you will be caught.And what I say to another adult is also none of your business, only what I say to you!I am the childish one here?! You come to places like that and start slamming guys like some little highschool punk who wants to be a tattle tail! If heard about slamming Jay and I looked at other posts where people have had awesome experinces with the guy. You come here to slam people when you've been in the business for maybe a year, that really makes you an expert on HOTS! As to you not selling to me that is not of my concern my friend, You sem like someone who has a chip on his shoulder and everychip one day hits the ground. What do you do all day e-mail people asking have I asked to buy HOTS from them then say no don't dell them! I understand YOU don't want to sell them to me but if you ask for some ID before getting ready to sell a HOT, you may never really have to refuse a sale! Maybe one day you'll catch on taking the easy way isn't always the right way! |
| Tony Bedell |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8749.html Posted At 11:15:31 09/06/2001 Lewis, I think your totally misreading what Patrick is saying. Read what he is saying, he feels that you don't have enough experience with HOTs and that is why he doesn't feel that he should sell you one. At this point its not even about your age, but you want some of the deadliest snakes in the world. I know that I wouldnt feel comfortable as a breeder selling to someone with no anti-venom, no experience, and no knowledge of the animal. Its not like he is knocking your name because your bad, he is just telling people that you are not experienced enough to have something this dangerous. Patrick makes a good point what would you do if you got bitten? How close to a hospital do you live? And would they even have anti-venom for that species? Its just to risky, I don't blame him. I would have done the same thing myself, because I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that I may have contributed to someones death Tony Bedell TB Reptiles |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
8806.html Posted At 09:56:02 09/07/2001 Age really shouldn't be an issue here, as Tony has said. Ultimately, it boils down to what appears to be a lack of research and poor judgement. Based upon what I have seen, I would say that you have no business purchasing the species which you inquired about, and I'd recommend starting out slow- with something along the lines of a copperhead or Madagascar hognose. The species which were inquired about are all extremely poor choices for a first hot. There is not antivenom for Atheris, and bite from these snakes are potentially life-threatening. It was once thought that Atheris was only "mildly venomous" and posed no serious risk, however, recent case histories refute that belief. Gaboon vipers- a species that is so deceptively lethargic, they can lull the uninitiated into a false sense of security. I would never recommend a large Bitis as a first hot. And then we have the coup de grace- the black pakistan cobras. This one is the most mind-boggling of all three choices. The reason that any Naja is such a bad choice is so obvious that I won't even give it mention. This is a species that nearly did in a very knowledgable keeper earlier this year. Finally, I need to touch on one thing that Lewis said, which I find ironic... "Maybe one day you'll catch on taking the easy way isn't always the right way!" The "easy way" in this scenerio would have been to simply sell the snakes and make a quick buck. Not selling the snakes to someone who is clearly not experienced enough to deal with these three species is definitely the right thing to do. Inexperience leads to mistakes, which could lead to the loss of life or limb. These are just my own personal observations, and are in no way inteded to be a personal attack on Lewis, or anyone else. |
| Tony Andrew |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
9013.html Posted At 13:27:11 09/12/2001 Patrick, I find your comments on Hot reptile keeping and having a clear concious quite interesting, especially the quote : "Just for the record...Being that you've never owned HOTs before, why are you wanting some of the deadliest snakes in the world?...Black Paks, Gaboons?" The reason I find it interesting is due to your shipping methods. Do you really think a responsible person would ship out one of the "deadliest snakes in the world" in a deli-cup inside a cardboard container? The deli-cup lid was secured by a couple of pieces of tape (very secure-not!). On top of this it was shipped without any notice that it was venomous (internally or externally) via a carrier who does not allow venomous shipments. In addition you did not notify the recipient that you had sent the shipment out (no e-mail or phone call). Basically, if the package you shipped got crushed or even slightly damaged, a very dangerous creature would be easily able to get out. Even though you are "not a known shipper" you could have quite easily put the deli cup in a snake bag, or used a wooden shipping box. An escape like this would really damage things for people who responsibly keep and ship hots. I think that people who ship like this have no buisness dealing with hots, and this is a pity, because shipping aside, the snake you shipped looked healthy and matched your description |
| David Bowdre |
Re: To: ALL HOT KEEPERS AND DEALERS!!!
9701.html Posted At 00:09:46 10/03/2001 wow. something like that happened here in California. some inexperienced kid got a hold of some kind of rearfang and got bitten and died of an allergic reaction. Now the state wants to ban rearfanges from bieng purchased or shipped into california. Which screws up every rearfanged dealer including people who keep them like me. |