The Genetics Police - i.e. BULLIES

I don't know if this applies in other herp areas, but in the ball python realm, I have noticed that there are some people who I guess could be called self-proclaimed genetics police. For example, a recent ad was posted for a "black belly" ball python (with belly pictures). The ad actually says "This is NOT a black belly". The op was attacked for not having a genetically proven snake. I see this all the time, both here and on other boards. Why do people feel it necessary to be self-proclaimed police? Do they feel that they are protecting others from a bad deal? Do they think that the ad posters are trying to rip people off? Or are these bullies just trying to make themselves feel special, important, and knowledgeable? Well guess what. Here's a message to the bullies/ genetics police- I have been observing who you are and remembering names. This forms a list of breeders I will NEVER do business with. I am sure there are others who feel the same. It would be great if some of them would speak up here and make a stand against this internet bullying. There is no reason for it. You are only making yourself look stupid. ...That's right, STUPID. Breeders who know what they are looking at are (monetarily) unaffected by your attempts to discredit ad posters. It happened to me: A while back I posted an ad for Yellow bellies (ball pythons), both here on Fauna and on another board. I had no trouble selling my snakes. All the hype (mostly on the other board in my case) about them not being genetically proven just kept my ad at the top and helped me sell my snakes faster. (I think it took about 3 weeks to sell everything)
You know, If I posted a pied for sale, and had pictures, and someone jumped up and asked me if it was a genetically proven pied, how stupid would everyone think he was? Just look at the picture- it's a pied! Don't you know a pied when you see one? -The same applies to the more subtle morphs. Breeders know what they are looking at. If a buyer sees a picture of a snake they want, they are going to buy it, "proven" or not. There can be 500 posts arguing whether or not the snake can be called a blank if it has not been proven a blank, but if the buyer likes what he sees, he is going to buy the snake.
Why can we not live and let live? How wonderful would it be if we all HELPED each other rather than trying to cut each other down? Why can't we ALL be successful herp breeders? Do we fear there is not enough success to go around? Do we feel it must be dog eat dog? Do the bullies FEAR the success of others?
The next time you think about posting a "that's not a ____" comment, stop and think for a moment.... why do you feel you need to say that? Is the ad poster trying to be honest and fair? Are there clear pictures on which to make an informed decision? Now I'm not saying we shouldn't jump on obvious frauds, or ask for better than fuzzy pictures, but is it fair to jump all over somebody for selling a genetically unproven snake, especially when they clearly indicate or even state in the ad that it not proven?
I guess the free bumps are helpful in the long run, but the negative energy is discouraging and draining and makes the forums a real drag to hang around. I honestly don't like browsing the boards and rarely visit except to look at the ads. And it is because of all the bullying that goes on. Shame on all of you who behave this way. It is unproductive, unethical, and uncalled for.
please GROW UP and make the internet a friendlier place to be.

No

1.- I don't know any one who is Genetics Police
2.- all gonna jump on you add because there is a real Generic Black belly http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=65766&page=1 that's why all the Generic snakes have name so that way you gonna recognize it what gene you selling.
3.- you say we have to grow up. sorry but even me that my English is not good i look on other people post so that way i don't messed up and try to look professional on my adds
4.- how hard is to post " i have a dinker normal project for sale really nice black belly unproven animal" and now you talking different
5.- Quote: That's right, STUPID. Breeders who know what they are looking at are (monetarily) unaffected by your attempts to discredit ad posters.
in my case i try to tell you DON'T NAME IT. I DON'T CARE IF YOU SELL A NORMAL FOR 100000, IS YOU ANIMAL, BUT DON'T NAME IT
6.- and for example about the pied if i read ok the person is asking who produce the animals and a lot breeders give you paper work even for visual morphs
7.-Quote: How wonderful would it be if we all HELPED each.. that's what we try to do and new people in especial. why? you may ask well because the new people will see you add and think that's the real Generic black belly even if you post is not a "black belly" you asking $2000+ for a normal and some people don't even read the Tittle and they gonna think that's the real black belly
8.- Quote: I honestly don't like browsing the boards and rarely visit except to look at the ads. And it is because of all the bullying that goes on. Shame on all of you who behave this way. It is unproductive, unethical, and uncalled for.... that's because if you SEARCH the same questions are been asking since this web site it was open that's why we don't post that much plus i don't know if you know we have some that we call CHAT and that's what we do there ask for info etc.


PS: about the guy that send you the pm saying that you will be in his "No buying from this person list" well that's what we try to prevent so people don't get like that whit you now in my real personal opinion asking $2000 for a dinker it's way to much money for unproven animal but hey maybe next year i will stop breeding morphs and start do it the importation of babes ball python from Africa

You really shouldn't get so upset over this kind of stuff. As for the Yellow Bellies, that you posted somewhere, asking if they are from proven lines is a question anyone who knows about Yellow Bellies would ask. I get the impression you are not very knowledgable. The reason you would buy a Yellow Belly is because you would want to breed it to another Yellow Belly or Ivory so you could produce Ivory babies. There are Yellow Bellies out there that do not produce Ivory's, so asking if yours are from proven lines is a perfectly good question. I would never buy a Yellow Belly that wasn't from a proven line. If a potential buyer didn't ask you if it was from a proven line, then they were probably newbies and didn't know to ask. If you responded by saying that you didn't know if they were from a proven line, I would not buy from you. Some people do get carried away in their comments. Most are good questions and legitamite, and should be answered. As a seller you should understand that buyers want to know as much as they can about an animal before they buy it, and it is your reputation that is on the line every time you advertise or sell an animal.

Delilah Ra said:

The op was attacked for not having a genetically proven snake. I see this all the time, both here and on other boards. Why do people feel it necessary to be self-proclaimed police? Do they feel that they are protecting others from a bad deal? Do they think that the ad posters are trying to rip people off?

Click to expand...

Yes, yes they do think it's an attempted rip off or that people who don't know ball morphs inside & out need to be aware that it isn't from a line proven to make the yellow jackets or whatever.

That ball with a black belly has more history here then just the one ad you're referring too.

No offense or slight to dude that has that snake is meant at all. They've been open to the questions and that is commendable.

Breeders who know what they are looking at are (monetarily) unaffected by your attempts to discredit ad posters. It happened to me: A while back I posted an ad for Yellow bellies (ball pythons), both here on Fauna and on another board. I had no trouble selling my snakes. All the hype (mostly on the other board in my case) about them not being genetically proven just kept my ad at the top and helped me sell my snakes faster. (I think it took about 3 weeks to sell everything)

Click to expand...

Then you should be thanking the so called bullies.

I personally appreciate the effort people make to try to help the newcomers not get scammed.

I made sure to ask if my yb's came from proven lines. I want ivories, not high yellow dinkers.

The same applies to the more subtle morphs. Breeders know what they are looking at. If a buyer sees a picture of a snake they want, they are going to buy it, "proven" or not. There can be 500 posts arguing whether or not the snake can be called a blank if it has not been proven a blank, but if the buyer likes what he sees, he is going to buy the snake.

Click to expand...

Gee, I'm so sorry we can't all see the subtle morphs so well & don't know all the bp morphs out there.

I guess instead of making the morphs I'm interested in I should have just stuck with breeding boas & left the balls to you supreme experts that can tell all the morphs at a glance.

Why can we not live and let live? How wonderful would it be if we all HELPED each other rather than trying to cut each other down? Why can't we ALL be successful herp breeders? Do we fear there is not enough success to go around? Do we feel it must be dog eat dog? Do the bullies FEAR the success of others?

Click to expand...

They are helping. I've picked up more detailed info on morphs in the debates on classified then I did out of John Berry's book or the morph hunter's guide.

You're the one that thinks everybody should be able to tell all the morphs, subtle & all, at a glance.

PT Barnum once said (There is a sucker born every day). Thats why there are forums to look up genetic morphs and the people who sell them be it good or bad there is always going to be people trying to take advantage of people just entering the hobby. Happy herping!

I personally think that if you do not research your new animal your new pet has a fool for a Owner!I want to know that the Yellow belly is Genetically Het for Ivory not just a normal that
looks the part!I mean we all Buy from people based on the Faith of people we Buy from I mean when you say Yellowbelly we have to really take your word until Proven different so Expect to have Questions asked about puchases over say 200.00 for anything under the sun.
Money is hard to come buy when you have a person who has owned a normal BP and is ready to make the next price jump into the 2-300.00 range he or she will have questions about being Truly what is Presented.

gsrept said:

PT Barnum once said (There is a sucker born every day). Thats why there are forums to look up genetic morphs and the people who sell them be it good or bad there is always going to be people trying to take advantage of people just entering the hobby. Happy herping!

Click to expand...

I thought the quote was "There's a sucker born every minute." So there's a lot of suckers out there given that calculation.

yes, you are right ready for bed earlier thanks for correcting me. if only there were a way for newbies to not get burned. but as you know most people do not do there homework and make impulse buys.

You know... There are some legitimate questions that people should ask when a snake being offered seems a little off the wall but sometimes I do think it gets out of hand!! If a Gene isn't proven then it's just a dinker until proven and I agree.. the seller has a right to set any price he wants but if people start questioning it then it's just so that a newbie to the Genetics doesn't get scammed and end up paying an outrageous amount of money on a pretty normal!! That's just my .02

Delilah,

I think what you are missing when people question the genetics of, say, your YBs is because of the fact that most people will look at YBs as really het Ivory. Your CH YBs may have been exactly YBs but NOT het for Ivory. Personally, I look at YBs as a het for Ivory snake and nothing else. If they arent het for Ivory then you could call them anything you want because they, to me, would not be a true YB snake.

The problem is that EVERYONE wants to label every snake some sort of morph when, in fact, its most likely a normal. You guaranteed the genetics of your particular pair of YBs, from what I remember. The thing is, what is your actual guarantee? Is it a guarantee that they will actually produce Ivory snakes? If that is not your guarantee, then I personally would not consider them to be YBs.

With the pair of YBs that you personally sold but picked up as CH from David Fernandez, I dont see how you could possibly guarantee them as het Ivory though. Even though David is very reputable and deals with a lot of CH snakes, I still dont see how anyone would want to guarantee something CH as a codom morph, simply because it is unproven to be genetically linked to that gene. And honestly, is it REALLY a YB if it doesnt produce Ivories, or is it just a snake whos belly is a little off-colored?

For me, if I sell a het and it doesnt prove out, I replace the snake with the morph as long as I feel like it was done correctly. In other words, if I sold a pr of YBs and they didnt produce a single Ivory, I would replace them with Ivories, at my discretion.

Well stated Dean!! I have to agree with you on every word you posted!!