Bad Guy Andrew Potts- I want my money back

bigdogg said:

I say instead of shipping the animal. Andrew waits for Tinley to come around in october and hand delivery the snake. It wasn't an adult so no use for it now. Plus breeding season is over especially for a brand new male. And andrew feeds pretty good so I know he will get it just as big as the op would have. That way there is no issues with shipping and there is nothing that can go wrong. OP can look over the snake in person and then get his replacement and call it good. That is what I would do. I know it sucks having to wait 5-6 months for a replacement but better then nothing. And better then risking it agian.

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This is the best outcome I have seen yet.

Baileykm said:

Never thought I would have to prove my ID before. You got my military ID because well I dont feel like going into photoshop and blacking out my address and such

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Baileykm said:

Being a Marine with a Secret Clearance that allowed me to view satellite communications, GPS, and aviation communications I have never heard of not taking a picture of you CAC card. I am sure that is probably a rule somewhere do not act like it is on your friday safety brief.

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Yes, you just violated federal law and opened an avenue for others to violate federal law. I suggest pulling that picture immediately.

yeah buddy you need to pull the id pic, Im active navy and that's a huge FUBAR.

I wouldn't have mentioned what type of clearance or information that I am priveledged to either. OPSEC out the window!

Firebill said:

I wouldn't have mentioned what type of clearance or information that I am priveledged to either. OPSEC out the window!

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for what mission? I am not saying hey that base over there look at what half buttoxed stuff they are doing to make it look like they are safe. opsec is names times and places. for a guy that has been out for 3 years now none of those are relavant anymore. So really... Opsec? We dont need to go river city up in here now. Now assume that the boogey man is out there hunting for information like I had before. They first of all they had to fly to the states. Find me, interrogate me, then they would find out I have no useful data. That is even assuming we have any "terrorists" in our soil that do that sort of stuff.

Now as far as the cac card being a no no... I am searching the internet and calling my civilian federal employee friends (they also have CAC) and they are saying they never heard of that rule either.

http://www.cac.mil/common-access-card/managing-your-cac/

It does say I should have returned it though

You should familiarize yourself with Acceptable Use, which this is not. You've clearly given a color copy to anyone that wants to duplicate or falsify a CAC.

Title 18, US Code Part I, Chapter 33, Section 701

"Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge,
identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by
the head of any department or agency of the United States for use
by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation
thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or
executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the
likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia,
or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under
regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title
or imprisoned not more than six months, or both."

You have obligated others to report this action. I would remove it post haste.

As far as Andrew being able to bring up any legal charges, he is kinda screwing himself over by holding the deserved refund. As long as he still has the cash, I highly doubt he will be trying to get anyone in trouble for blackmail. The longer he holds the refund, the more likely a judge would slap him around too.

Basically I'm just saying maybe we should be encouraging a solution to the refund before trying to explain the NEXT step. Since talking about the next step is pointless without taking care of the first step.

Think we are getting a little off topic here with this military clearance thing. If it is illegal Kevin obviously will face the concequences. For now I say we just wait and see what comes of it. All the talk on here is just gonna further the wait. As it will just give more fuel to the fire so to speak of whether Andrew wants to refund, replace, or forget. It is his decision one way or another. We can all give him advice but might not sway him either way. He now knows the cheapest, easiest options. And he knows the more expensive, quicker option. Lost 4600 dollars cash instantly. Or a hytec parahet that he produced a litter of...

It amazes me how this whole thread has gotten completely out of hand. The facts are obvious, from the photos. The snake arrived dead. Based on the pictures, and the shipping details, the animal overheated. The jaw issue is something seen in snakes that died in a lot of pain. e.g. they bite themselves, jaws flail open, etc. In this case, I would put money that that boa caught its mouth on the bag, and during the convulsions associated with heat stress, it dislocated or broke is lower jaw. Regardless of that, the snake arrived dead. The picture evidence is there to prove it. You do not need a forensic examination to prove that either. The pooling of blood shows that death happened early into the shipping, which given the fact it was packed with 2 heat packs and no air holes when leaving an 80oF point of origin fits.

People get heated when this much money is involved. Things are said that shouldn't be said, etc, but given the case, it looks like the people at fault are the people the sold, packed, and shipped the boa. Asking for the body to be returned is unusual, given the photo evidence, but in that instance Mr Potts should have paid for the return shipping. That't what I would do.

In order to save business, I would simply replace the boa with an equivalent, or slightly better animal, if available, or, refund the money. I am sure that money is long gone, which is sad.

Anyway, enough rambling Warren. The way I see it. Snake bought and paid for... snake shipped incorrectly and died in transit... seller refunds or replaces said snake. This whole issue on Fauna does nothing for the Potts business. There are now plenty of people producing killer Aztecs, and seeing this, I would go to them, rather than the Potts personally, which is something I would not have said before reading this thread.

WB

Some things didn't seem right when I browsed this last night, so I came back to read again. These two statements alone stand out to me more then any of the back and forth accusations in the whole thread...

Robert Potts said:

Kevin was part of the crime from the beginning. Because of this there is small doubt that my packing is responsible for the boas death. Andrew

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Robert Potts said:

Shadow there was two heat packs. Andrew

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As has been pointed out Mr Potts, You sent a Boa, from a warm environment, to a warm environment, and through your own admission, you added two heat packs? Come on man. I know you're trying to sell people on how "un-smart" you are, but this is borderline retarded. And you even admit that there is "small doubt" that your packaging is responsible. Where I come from, that is as good as saying. "you're right, it was my fault", and yet you refuse to refund their money? You messed up, now MAN up and pay them back.

All the BS emails aside, you have no right to keep their money. Issue a refund, and then see an attorney for the libel case against them. That is the RIGHT thing to do. You admitted it was your fault in your own posts. Receiving blackmail threats is not legal basis for you to refuse a refund given the circumstances.

Robert Potts said:

Kevin is as much a criminal as the other two. There's still a chance that the boa arrived alive. The difference is my reputation and the reputation of obvious criminals. I'll go with those who are honest versus those who are dishonest. Andrew

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I'm curious about this "reputation" you speak of? Only reputation I know of you having, is you popping into threads, and creating a raucous. Reputations mean nothing in reality. A reputation is simply others opinions. People are easily fooled sometimes. Judging by all you've said in this thread, you ought to be more concerned with your CHARACTER, which obviously has some flaws, which you let slip out for all the reptile world to see.

bigdogg said:

Now see Luis I don't know if you know Bob or Andrew but they have many litters of these Aztec mutations. Im sure they have another that look just as good. I again don't want to stick up for bob and andrew. They are good guys in my book and still will be after this goes whichever way. As I don't agree with how whoever actually bought this animal dealt with it at all. Slander to a business is nothing to mess around with.

With the replacement thing it all depends on how bob and andy's tos is stated. In my personal T.O.S I state that there are no cash refunds. Andrew can simply give them 4600 dollars credit toward the next purchase of an animal which is what I would do in this case. If they don't want to use it that is up to them. But again just my point of view. Both parties are in the wrong here. Not just andrew and not just the op.

By the look of the snake in the pictures. You should have been able to smell the death coming from that box when he got it. Therefore if you smell death record every single step of opening that package. I would have even had the fedex guy standing there to watch me open it. That way there is tons of proof of DOA. Then contact the seller and go from there. Lots of things should have happened differently but they didn't. It is up to Andrew and the OP to settle this now. Whether it goes to court or a simple talk on the telephone. Either way should be settled

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So after receiving one animal dead, due to improper packaging, and improper shipping method, you think it right they take a chance on another animal being shipped to them the same way, and arriving possibly in the same condition? Nah,I think a full refund is warranted, regardless of how immature Kevins cohorts acted. I've had animals go on a 3 day tour of the US, from hot area, to freezing Ohio warehouse, then back to the hot environment it was supposed to go to in the first place, all because of the carriers error, and the animal arrived live and healthy. Just shows what proper packaging can accomplish.

BTW, not that it matter much anymore, since I'm pretty much out of this industry. But my TOS says money back, OR animal of equal value. In the case of DOA, I do ask the animal be shipped back in the same manner which I shipped it, and at the buyers expense, before i refund. But since there is PROOF that FedEx destroyed the package, then exceptions have to be made on Mr Potts's behalf. The attempt was made to return the animal, and the shipper should not be held responsible for the carriers mistake.

Designerboa said:

Andrew Potts....... Every post in this thread is adding more content for the search engines....You are not doing yourself, Bob Potts or your Aztec project any good....... 4,600 is a small price to pay to make this go away without doing anymore harm.

My 0.2

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And there it is Mr Potts. Are you really willing to sell out your "good reputation" for a few thousand dollars? If so, maybe there is some truth to your claims of just how smart you really aren't.

Do what's right Mr Potts, and give Kevin back his money. This all goes away, it shows you doing the right thing in the end, and maybe even gets some of your future animals sold. Seems real simple to me. No smarts needed at all.

It's a shame, it doesn't seem that Andrew Potts is reading this thread any longer. Hopefully he returns and changes his mind about withholding the refund. I originally read through the thread after seeing one of his ads for a boa that caught my eye. I honestly thought it would end up being one of those "OP is the actual bad guy" threads, but unfortunately that is not the case. I would be terrified of buying from someone who has made shipping mistakes and then refused to provide a refund because they were too prideful. The buyer has no control over how a seller packages the animal they have purchased. I would think that Andrew will be much more careful from here out, but that won't reassure anyone who is considering a high ticket animal from him.

Baileykm said:

Being a Marine with a Secret Clearance that allowed me to view satellite communications, GPS, and aviation communications I have never heard of not taking a picture of you CAC card. I am sure that is probably a rule somewhere do not act like it is on your friday safety brief.

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Yeah man I have to agree. I know it's off topic. But, you aren't supposed to put your ID out there. Businesses aren't even allowed to photocopy it for their records. And come on. Don't flaunt a "secret" clearance. Everybody and their brother has that, I know people in jobs that don't deal with classified material at all and have secrets. Hell, you get put in for one when you enlist.

(Besides, that was so 4 days ago)

crotalusadamanteus said:

So after receiving one animal dead, due to improper packaging, and improper shipping method, you think it right they take a chance on another animal being shipped to them the same way, and arriving possibly in the same condition? Nah,I think a full refund is warranted, regardless of how immature Kevins cohorts acted. I've had animals go on a 3 day tour of the US, from hot area, to freezing Ohio warehouse, then back to the hot environment it was supposed to go to in the first place, all because of the carriers error, and the animal arrived live and healthy. Just shows what proper packaging can accomplish.

BTW, not that it matter much anymore, since I'm pretty much out of this industry. But my TOS says money back, OR animal of equal value. In the case of DOA, I do ask the animal be shipped back in the same manner which I shipped it, and at the buyers expense, before i refund. But since there is PROOF that FedEx destroyed the package, then exceptions have to be made on Mr Potts's behalf. The attempt was made to return the animal, and the shipper should not be held responsible for the carriers mistake.

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Rich, I suggested not to ship the animal in a previous post. I know it was a crappy outcome. But I suggested to wait til the Tinley show in October for hand delivery of the animal. Now im not sure if Bob and Andy are vending that show or not. But being they very easily could and sure it would be worth the trip for em to get this handled.

I too have had many shipments be delayed and be perfectly fine from hot to cold and cold to hot. But whenever it is going to get below 65 degrees at anytime of the trip. I always use a heat pack. Now I wrap the heat pack and I open it right before sealing the box to make sure it takes its time activating if it is 80 outside then 40-50 that night. But that is just all expierence in shipping.

I try to work with the buyer if something was DOA. Now I think I have only had 2 animals arrive DOA in my 7 years of selling online and shipping. But even with my local one week guarantee. I always offer credit for the animal instead of a cash refund. As you do never know if someone just got sick of that animal and wants to get something else instead. Instead of selling it they kill it immediately "on accident" then want their cash back(this has happened to me and I did prove it). I don't like any type of scams so credit is always given. And so far I have made every customer happy that I possibly could have. And I don't believe anybody hates me for the way I conduct business. But as most on this thread your right. This needs to be handled and something set in stone. Whether its a new snake, refund, box of chocolates and an apology, something needs done.

Wasn't really questioning your TOS, was just using mine as an example, that some do offer a cash refund, in case of DOA, provided it's not proved negligent on the buyers behalf. But in Andrews case, I still haven't seen any TOS from him, though it was asked for. Perhaps I missed it though.

What I'm contesting is Andrew's handling of this affair, and since he came right out from the beginning, guns blasting, stating he wasn't even going to deal with them, unless animal was shipped back, which they tried to do, then FedEx axed the shipment. That's why I suggested he just refund their money. I mean 2 heat packs? Standard over night instead of priority? That's just plain negligent on HIS behalf, not the buyers. I still say he needs to do the right thing. That's a lot of dough, and a lot of heartache for the buyer to have to deal with.

That's just my take on it.

From post # 43:

Robert Potts said:

We offer a 6 month guarantee in writing which we stand behind and it's defies logic for me to see a dead snake to a customer, especially a first time customer. I don't see how I'm going to get ahead or come out ahead with me shipping a dead snake and then decide these guys can go fish unless I have very good reasons. Trying to pull a scam with me is reason enough.

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That's the closest, albeit extremely vague, reference to a TOS that I could find. Maybe it means that if someone else writes something that pisses him off, the actual buyer has to "go fish" for six months before he fixes his own mistake.
Given all that's happened on both sides of the fence, the shipping of another animal seems the absolute least sensible way to close out this transaction.
I think it's dead wrong for the buyer to have to wait til some show in October to receive any kind of compensation. Even if it was money set aside, and not desperately needed, that's still just too long to have to wait to recover $4500. Especially when the wait isn't remotely of one's own volition.
I find myself wondering if this was Mr. Pott's first real taste of how good it can feel to be the one sticking it to the man. Wrath for long-past wrongs, perhaps? Who knows.

Andrew has convinced himself of lots of things, up to and including me being racist because I hold everyone accountable for their own wrongdoings, regardless of ethnicity. And here, he convinces himself that he is being scammed.

I ask you Andrew, why would anybody, with even half a wit, fork out $4500 just to kill the animal, in some attempted scam on you? Where is the logic behind such an action? You need to see this as what it is...YOUR mistake for adding too much heat to the package...YOUR mistake for not making it a priority package...YOUR mistake for not attempting to deal with this in a professional manner.

My personal dislike for you aside...you dropped the ball on this one, and need to own up to your own mistakes. Make it right, and it goes away. Keep going with your farce, and it WILL effect your future transactions. It's already effect4ed one transaction, as noted above by a prospective client.

I hope this does'nt start a trend-when folks read there's good money to be made shipping out dead animals...$4500? and all the evidence gone.What a drag-you need to confront this guy face to face.

It wasn't shipped out dead Jennifer. No one that read this thread would come to that conclusion.

So what is the outcome?? Is the OP not going to get his money back? Is this it? Is Mr. Potts just going to run into the woods and hide his face forever and hope everyone forgets about him not refunding the OP $4500??
Nobody is going to forget about this. It will not just go away. Mr. Potts needs to do the right thing before it starts affecting his business. Who knows, it might not or it might destroy it. I guess you have shown that you don't care about your business though.