victor121

Thanks.. Can everyone leave this be please.. I have done nothing wrong.. One or 2 more gone and I will be berry happy with what's left and I already called in for my new customer ars racks.. So my snakes will have it better the most... Thanks to all who defended but let's all let it go.. If I do something wrong then of course posts should be made but let's leave it until then.. Again thank to everyone

Seems like everyone has made their points. Lets just all get along

Originally Posted by victor121

Why should you be mike.. Let it go...

That was a fair question about Deb's practices and how they impacted her her posts that were critical of you....if Shawn had told me she had had the animals for a week, her argument would have lost a lot of weight. But, ok....I'll let it go.

Originally Posted by TheVipersHouse

not sure the time frame of how long she had them , but that wasnt to what i was referencing when i posted that , i was using to show how Deb tells someone that they are hers to do what she wants with , well the same is for victor they are now legally his and she has not right making accusations about him being "FLIPPER" cause in fact they are his now and HE CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS with them .. whats good enough for Deb to tell someone is good enough for DEB to get told to her ..

If this is the project I'm thinking of, it was a long term joint project, during which time Deb had had the animals long enough to breed them. That's a far cry from the week or so that Victor had the animals he had purchased.

Originally Posted by Cp3_Pythons

I dont see how it would reflect negatively on her I didn't see where Victor said he gotten the animals from her Now Yes that may be taking place through Pm's But he didn't publicly state that SHE DEB made it clear that they were her animals as if she wanted to be the topic of conversation.
Placing herself back into the mix... If Victor never states nor stated that the animals he was/is selling where indeed Debs NO ONE Would have known.
But now that she has public stated they were her's they will... Heck it might even help him move out more of the Bp's he BOUGHT FROM DEB so he can purchase more racks for his collection....

Like I said, I may not have handled this the same way as she had, but the problem with people who do flip animals is that if/when a problem arises, the seller often points to the source. Just ask anyone who's bough a "het" from a flipper.

Originally Posted by victor121

Thanks.. Can everyone leave this be please.. I have done nothing wrong.. One or 2 more gone and I will be berry happy with what's left and I already called in for my new customer ars racks.. So my snakes will have it better the most... Thanks to all who defended but let's all let it go.. If I do something wrong then of course posts should be made but let's leave it until then.. Again thank to everyone

You want to make a good name for yourself. You will be judged by prospective clients based in part on your words and actions here. This board was formed as a means of keeping an eye on members of this hobby/industry. As long as you are a part of this community, your actions will be discussed here.

Also, in reference to the customer who bought the animals that are not yet feeding, could you answer a few questions? How long did you have them before selling? What were they feeding on when you had them? Where did you get them?

How you address this buyer will go a long way towards peoples' perception of you, and people will want to know how this is resolved.

I would like to remind everyone that I am making an effort to eliminate the personal attacks in this forum. I really don't want to have to remove members in this effort, so I am requesting everyone's cooperation.

Originally Posted by gsrept

I think the term is used way to loosely

My observations over the years are as follows.

The usage has shifted considerable over the last couple of years. Coincidentally, it has coincided with price drops, market tightening specifically within one category, the Ball market.

I have a lot of friends in this community and have watched things unfold over many years. To be honest, much of what my friends did many years ago is now look down on by them and others. Many of them still post here and a lot do elsewhere. They condemn the very way they started out as well. Short memories? I don't think so. Some of them are the most anti "flipping" posters out there. They did the exact same thing to get started.

It used to be that strictly resellers were labeled "flippers". They played a roll right along side the breeders. Not necessarily demonized but filled a gap between customers and breeders and sold to and bought from both, from excess stock.

Many got started by buying large lots and buyouts to obtain certain animals and recouped the expense by selling the excess. They were never targeted for this and built some nice collections. Today, some of those friends are the first to jump on everyone as being a flipper. Not speaking of anyone who has posted in this thread as of the time I type this.

The household names in this community started much the same way. Some of the ones that laid the foundation by working hard to establish contacts and import into this country had a similar business model. Some importers did and do the same. Not strictly being importers but breeders too.

There wasn't much of a problem for years because all three served a purpose and it seemed good times and the sky is the limit for all. Importers, Breeders, resellers all had a different customer base within the industry.

New hobbyist entering would go to establish breeders for higher quality and specific characteristics and willing to pay for it. Others going a different route to establish their collections. The ball python brought in a whole lot of new people into the hobby. Growing pains has its good and bad.
Now there is a lot of people at there looking to market their animals.
It makes it easier for new people to entering and tougher when trying to find your niche with those that are well established.

There are many good breeders here and elsewhere that take great pride in what they do. Many of those also buy others out and offer animals that aren't theirs for sale. I don't see them called out for the same as others are constantly called for the same.

Some breeders seem to make a habit of selling projects they aren't interested in three months later after they purchased the project. I can see being interested and losing interest but it's like clockwork for some for years. They never are called on it. Is it because they also sell their own animals?

What about the members that have an emergency sale every 6 months? Then precede to sell off everything they just purchased. Surely not, but they keep doing it over and over again. Are they really flippers too? Just doing it in a more concealed way.

There are some very good people who do this type of thing here and have for more than ten years. Buy a project and resell it for more a few months later. Stating, "I'm no longer interested" or "making room". When it happens all year long every year and then they are the ones standing on the corner calling people flippers here and more-so on another site (when they didn't even breed the animals) it just makes you shake your head.

Some supposed breeders here I've maybe seen offer their own produced animals maybe once or a few times in many years. They have animals up for sale every few weeks. I'm selling this project to fix a car this month, next month a doctor's bill, the following a roof or a vet visit. Aren't they just flipping as well? Considering they didn't produce the animals?

If you want to be honest and go after all the "flippers" you going to have to put a lot of names on that list. The problem is that many making that list should be on it themselves.

Personally, If your honest about the origins of what you are selling I don't have a problem with you. More than likely when I purchase for myself, I will be looking for a specific quality and characteristic that I will probably find only with a dedicated breeder developing those qualities. Sometimes a reseller may have what I'm looking for only because a breeder sold out to them. I have purchased them as well. I'm not afraid to state that I sell to them as well.

Just a note that goes to the turn in this thread. I've also seen some of my previous animals pop-up in ads here last year from a well respected person selling a project. It wasn't long after I sold them to someone other than who was offering them. Couldn't have been a project for very long. They didn't state they produced them and it really isn't my business to offer such information to a thread.
I can see it now. This person is selling animals that I willing sold to someone else. He didn't state he produced them but I just want to let you know, they were mine. WTF? Talk about a ego I must have to make such a post.
Not going to happen from me.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

My observations over the years are as follows.

The usage has shifted considerable over the last couple of years. Coincidentally, it has coincided with price drops, market tightening specifically within one category, the Ball market.

I have a lot of friends in this community and have watched things unfold over many years. To be honest, much of what my friends did many years ago is now look down on by them and others. Many of them still post here and a lot do elsewhere. They condemn the very way they started out as well. Short memories? I don't think so. Some of them are the most anti "flipping" posters out there. They did the exact same thing to get started.

It used to be that strictly resellers were labeled "flippers". They played a roll right along side the breeders. Not necessarily demonized but filled a gap between customers and breeders and sold to and bought from both, from excess stock.

Many got started by buying large lots and buyouts to obtain certain animals and recouped the expense by selling the excess. They were never targeted for this and built some nice collections. Today, some of those friends are the first to jump on everyone as being a flipper. Not speaking of anyone who has posted in this thread as of the time I type this.

The household names in this community started much the same way. Some of the ones that laid the foundation by working hard to establish contacts and import into this country had a similar business model. Some importers did and do the same. Not strictly being importers but breeders too.

There wasn't much of a problem for years because all three served a purpose and it seemed good times and the sky is the limit for all. Importers, Breeders, resellers all had a different customer base within the industry.

New hobbyist entering would go to establish breeders for higher quality and specific characteristics and willing to pay for it. Others going a different route to establish their collections. The ball python brought in a whole lot of new people into the hobby. Growing pains has its good and bad.
Now there is a lot of people at there looking to market their animals.
It makes it easier for new people to entering and tougher when trying to find your niche with those that are well established.

There are many good breeders here and elsewhere that take great pride in what they do. Many of those also buy others out and offer animals that aren't theirs for sale. I don't see them called out for the same as others are constantly called for the same.

Some breeders seem to make a habit of selling projects they aren't interested in three months later after they purchased the project. I can see being interested and losing interest but it's like clockwork for some for years. They never are called on it. Is it because they also sell their own animals?

What about the members that have an emergency sale every 6 months? Then precede to sell off everything they just purchased. Surely not, but they keep doing it over and over again. Are they really flippers too? Just doing it in a more concealed way.

There are some very good people who do this type of thing here and have for more than ten years. Buy a project and resell it for more a few months later. Stating, "I'm no longer interested" or "making room". When it happens all year long every year and then they are the ones standing on the corner calling people flippers here and more-so on another site (when they didn't even breed the animals) it just makes you shake your head.

Some supposed breeders here I've maybe seen offer their own produced animals maybe once or a few times in many years. They have animals up for sale every few weeks. I'm selling this project to fix a car this month, next month a doctor's bill, the following a roof or a vet visit. Aren't they just flipping as well? Considering they didn't produce the animals?

If you want to be honest and go after all the "flippers" you going to have to put a lot of names on that list. The problem is that many making that list should be on it themselves.

Personally, If your honest about the origins of what you are selling I don't have a problem with you. More than likely when I purchase for myself, I will be looking for a specific quality and characteristic that I will probably find only with a dedicated breeder developing those qualities. Sometimes a reseller may have what I'm looking for only because a breeder sold out to them. I have purchased them as well. I'm not afraid to state that I sell to them as well.

Just a note that goes to the turn in this thread. I've also seen some of my previous animals pop-up in ads here last year from a well respected person selling a project. It wasn't long after I sold them to someone other than who was offering them. Couldn't have been a project for very long. They didn't state they produced them and it really isn't my business to offer such information to a thread.
I can see it now. This person is selling animals that I willing sold to someone else. He didn't state he produced them but I just want to let you know, they were mine. WTF? Talk about a ego I must have to make such a post.
Not going to happen from me.

Dennis,

Everytime you post inside a thread its words of wisdom and almost always go downs both ways showing both sides of a story... and speak your mind yet do so with respect

Dennis, i would have to agree with your statements. basically my point was that the term in this industry in whole holds no validity

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

My observations over the years are as follows.

The usage has shifted considerable over the last couple of years. Coincidentally, it has coincided with price drops, market tightening specifically within one category, the Ball market.

I have a lot of friends in this community and have watched things unfold over many years. To be honest, much of what my friends did many years ago is now look down on by them and others. Many of them still post here and a lot do elsewhere. They condemn the very way they started out as well. Short memories? I don't think so. Some of them are the most anti "flipping" posters out there. They did the exact same thing to get started.

It used to be that strictly resellers were labeled "flippers". They played a roll right along side the breeders. Not necessarily demonized but filled a gap between customers and breeders and sold to and bought from both, from excess stock.

Many got started by buying large lots and buyouts to obtain certain animals and recouped the expense by selling the excess. They were never targeted for this and built some nice collections. Today, some of those friends are the first to jump on everyone as being a flipper. Not speaking of anyone who has posted in this thread as of the time I type this.

The household names in this community started much the same way. Some of the ones that laid the foundation by working hard to establish contacts and import into this country had a similar business model. Some importers did and do the same. Not strictly being importers but breeders too.

There wasn't much of a problem for years because all three served a purpose and it seemed good times and the sky is the limit for all. Importers, Breeders, resellers all had a different customer base within the industry.

New hobbyist entering would go to establish breeders for higher quality and specific characteristics and willing to pay for it. Others going a different route to establish their collections. The ball python brought in a whole lot of new people into the hobby. Growing pains has its good and bad.
Now there is a lot of people at there looking to market their animals.
It makes it easier for new people to entering and tougher when trying to find your niche with those that are well established.

There are many good breeders here and elsewhere that take great pride in what they do. Many of those also buy others out and offer animals that aren't theirs for sale. I don't see them called out for the same as others are constantly called for the same.

Some breeders seem to make a habit of selling projects they aren't interested in three months later after they purchased the project. I can see being interested and losing interest but it's like clockwork for some for years. They never are called on it. Is it because they also sell their own animals?

What about the members that have an emergency sale every 6 months? Then precede to sell off everything they just purchased. Surely not, but they keep doing it over and over again. Are they really flippers too? Just doing it in a more concealed way.

There are some very good people who do this type of thing here and have for more than ten years. Buy a project and resell it for more a few months later. Stating, "I'm no longer interested" or "making room". When it happens all year long every year and then they are the ones standing on the corner calling people flippers here and more-so on another site (when they didn't even breed the animals) it just makes you shake your head.

Some supposed breeders here I've maybe seen offer their own produced animals maybe once or a few times in many years. They have animals up for sale every few weeks. I'm selling this project to fix a car this month, next month a doctor's bill, the following a roof or a vet visit. Aren't they just flipping as well? Considering they didn't produce the animals?

If you want to be honest and go after all the "flippers" you going to have to put a lot of names on that list. The problem is that many making that list should be on it themselves.

Personally, If your honest about the origins of what you are selling I don't have a problem with you. More than likely when I purchase for myself, I will be looking for a specific quality and characteristic that I will probably find only with a dedicated breeder developing those qualities. Sometimes a reseller may have what I'm looking for only because a breeder sold out to them. I have purchased them as well. I'm not afraid to state that I sell to them as well.

Just a note that goes to the turn in this thread. I've also seen some of my previous animals pop-up in ads here last year from a well respected person selling a project. It wasn't long after I sold them to someone other than who was offering them. Couldn't have been a project for very long. They didn't state they produced them and it really isn't my business to offer such information to a thread.
I can see it now. This person is selling animals that I willing sold to someone else. He didn't state he produced them but I just want to let you know, they were mine. WTF? Talk about a ego I must have to make such a post.
Not going to happen from me.

as always Dennis like already said prior WELL SAID !!!
and im sorry but yes i had to BOLD the last part cause thats my problem with what Deb posted that and her attacking and accusations she made to the OP of being a flipper . my posts wernt personal attacks . they were character attacks ( and she showed her true colors ). like that old saying whats good for the goose is good for the gander ..

Hey Mike,

This is what Victor told me and why I am now a bit skeptical. Again, not trying to bash, I am just a littler concerned. Hopefully my skepticism will prove not warranted. So here's the story...

Victor had an ad (on fauna) stating he was moving across the country and wanted to originally trade his entire collection for 1 or 2 to 'mega' morph animals because it would be easier to move a couple animals instead of a large collection. He later posted another ad stating that he didn't have any luck with the trade so he was willing to selling individual animals because he needed them gone because of the move. He listed 15+ females that were bred to mojos, bees, super pastels, albinos, and pieds. He also said he had a couple of het albino females bred to albinos. I contacted him right after the ad was placed and asked if he was available that same day for me to check them out. He said yes. He said his collection was mite free and everything was on f/t (I only feed f/t except to newborns). I told him I would head up and take a look. I took the 2 het albinos bred to albinos, and all the females he had bred to bees and super pastels. He told me the het albinos were produced by Ralph Davis but didn't have paperwork with him. It was at work and he would forward all records to me later. I have YET to receive any paperwork. I asked him if he had any more because I would be interested. He said no. I took them home and set them up in quarantine which was easy because I bought 2 racks from him as well. He was actually a very nice guy. He said he just had to get rid of everything because of the move across country. He told me they were all good feeders on f/t and had them all for more than 6 months. I asked if they were still eating and he said yes. He would separate the pairs every so often and give them a meal. Out of the 7 animals I purchase I only believe one is gravid. That is ,however, not what I am concerned about. That was a risk I was willing to take, whether they were gravid or not.

Here are my issues...

1) Never got paperwork for het albino females that were produced by Ralph Davis. When I asked a couple days later about it he said he bought them from a friend and he never got paperwork. That is not what I was told in beginning. I was told I would get paperwork. RED flag 1.

2) A couple days after I bought them he listed an ad with more het albino females bred to albinos. I asked him if he had anymore when I was there and he told me I was buying all he had. RED flag 2

3) If he was moving cross country and had to sell everything why is he now offering to buy entire collections. RED flag 3

4) I am very patient with balls when it comes to feeding. 3 are eating f/t for me with no problem. I gave them all 1.5 weeks rest to settle in before trying. The others have no interest. Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this and would be more patient (balls will be balls). But because of the other red flags I am worried these aren't really on f/t. These are the ones I was asking to return. After the fact, I have seen him place inquiries on animals for sale that were advertised as live feeders.

I am sure Victor will come on here and have an entirely different account of what took place. All I was asking was to return the animals I was skeptical about. Nothing more. I even offered to add additional funds if he had something of greater value as long as it was strong on F/T. I figured that would be better than asking him to fork over the refund. I would be fine however just getting a refund.

Kevin Hood

That is reason for concern, in my opinion. Hopefully everything turns out to be legit. Good luck, and I wish there was more I could offer in the way of reassurance.