• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Status check on health of this site.

WebSlave

WebSlave

It is what it is, but certainly not what it was.
Staff member
Staff
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Messages
20,509
Reaction score
865
Points
113
Location
Crawfordville, FL
I just got the following email, and it made me sit back and try to take stock of things here.....

I know you had to start charging but since you have there is really nothing to look at on fauna. It just a handful of the same people. There prices are never that great either.
I really used to like browsing the adds. I found lots of great buys in the past even in my own state now really nothing. I hope things get back to the old way
Click to expand...

This is not the first nor only email I have gotten of this nature.

I've checked the statistics logs of the site and logins of registered members since January 1, 2007 till present (I began the paid requirement on posting classifieds on March 7, 2007) and it shows a steady decline in members logging in. From an average of around 1100 per day to around 850 per day now. Taking into account NEW registrations, the picture is likely even worse than the stats show.

New threads posted, which are a pretty good indication of actual ads posted, has dropped from a high in January of 1884 threads to 932 in April, to a peak in August of 1215 and hitting 941 so far this month of October.

Even more damning is when I look at total posts per month. January, 2007 showed 13,576 posts made that month, which has steadily declined to a mere 6,516 for this month of October. February showed a slight decline of 11,097 posts, but plummeted sharply in March to only 8,741 posts for that month. And posts have steadily declined since then to the current level.

Obviously things do not bode well for the future of this site.

Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point. I was reluctant from the start to do this, but many people offered this as a suggestion and I felt it was just being hard headed on my part to fight it. No, I am not trying to make a claim as to being right or wrong about this, just simply posting the facts and trying to see what the cards laying on the table are telling me.

Quite simply put, is participation in the classified sections here just a matter of being free, or being dead?

The paid requirement has been running for nearly 8 months now. The question is, IS it wise to continue?

So yes, I am soliciting opinions on this. The picture I see does not look good at all, but maybe there are broader issues as well.
 
Speaking from my own position.....new to keeping and breeding snakes.

I feel the payment requirement for posting in the classifieds might put a hamper on the hobbyist breeders. Those people who have a single pair or two of reptiles that they have bred and are not looking to turn it into a business, might feel that their hobby has to become a business in order to cover the subscription fee. Now, I know it's not all that expensive, but if you only produce a few babies a year, some might not be up to rationalizing the fee to sell on Fauna.

I have tossed this idea around quite a bit myself. Do I pay to sell here, knowing the snakes will go to someone that has a true interest in reptiles...or try my hand with local pet stores, where the buyer is likely to be an impulse buyer or ignorant to the requirement for properly caring for a reptile. (I am aware that these stereotypes do not hold true for all people in either arena.)

Also, with the current setup, people have to pay in order to advertise for wanted animals. I feel this also impedes the growth of individuals and the overall herp culture and hobby. If I'm looking for one specific animal to complete or compliment my collection, why do I need to pay to inquire about any available animals?

I'm not sure how others feel, so I open the floor to further discussion. :thumbsup:
 
Yeah, I know everyone will have their own opinions about this, but my main concern is whether or not the charging for posting classified ads on this site is being the main choking point.
Click to expand...
On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.
 
I think it is important to look at the pluses and minuses. Is a lower post count actually a bad thing when it comes to the quality of the advertisers and the overall heath of the site along with the bottom-line profitability here?

I think it is important to note that some (not I) have only contributed here for the ability to post in the classifieds. I guess one of the questions you could ask is if that amount of contributors just to post classifieds out-ways less post counts? Would you have less paid contributors if you dropped the fee or would it spark a renewed interest? If you dropped the fee would those seeking free classifieds actually benefit the site in contributions down the road?

It would be interesting to know if the members at the contributing membership level in January is less or more now? How many of them would actually renew if the classifieds were free?

 
And also, you would have to way some of the other problems we faced with the higher post counts.

The alternative classifieds section (photopost) has been restricted to paid membership for a while now. For some reason, that section was being heavily targeted by spammers. That paid membership restriction pretty much ended that problem there.

This is now expanding that requirement to include the forum based classifieds as well.
Click to expand...
 
I am new and my opinion means squat, but here it is. When I first became enamored of the reptile hobby I joined both KS and Fauna, because I saw the need to have some kind of sites that would be able to steer me in the right direction. As both sites became a arena for name-calling and bashing, I stopped visiting both; they were too "hardcore" for me, so I actually cut my eyeteeth on Reptileforums.com.

I got around the need for a regulation by simply dealing with Breeders that I already knew and I did not deviate from this strategy. However, as time went on, I saw (as many did) the need to have some kind of regulations some kind of "watchdog" in place as more scammers sprung up, so I came back to Fauna because between the two KS and Fauna...honestly for me Fauna was more "user friendly." The set up was easier to follow.

However, as I have become more familar with the site itself and the postings...I fear that the warnings that I had been given in the beginning have some substance to them. While we breeders do pack a lot of clout and can regulate this trade in a way...the way people get trashed by every person that may have one snake to their name that is already dead leaves a lot to be desired. The breeders and those that have had dealings with those that are scammers should be the only ones posting about their experiences. What I am seeing is every child and teenager has the right to come on here and disrespect everyone. This alone is enough to make people leave.

Trying to be politically correct here. But what I posted is actually what I heard before I came back..but I came back anyway because we do need a regulator/advisor...ahhh, let me shut up.

What I am trying to say is, it's not the fees (imo) many herpers are willing to pay for a QUALITY product. There is more than one issue at work in this situation.
 
ms_terese said:
On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.
Click to expand...

Preferred by whom? The older herpers? Some of the newer herpers/people seem to have as difficult a time as I do trying to navigate those ads. :shrug01:
 
Aren't classifieds seasonal too?

I think that a lot has been done this year, some attitudes adjusted, some new views brought into focus. I don't think there's been enough time to get a good handle on whether or not it's good or bad.

I haven't posted a for sale ad anyplace for this years babies. I should have, could have, but simply haven't. It was a slow year and I just got lazy. Maybe others are feeeling the same.

I don't think Fauna will ever be on the same level as KS as far as "the" place to go to sell, but I think the rest of the site is still growing up. I suspect that the "clout" of Fauna will grow in the next few years.

Almost everyone bitches and moans about how people behave here, the name calling and childish behaviour, but those very same people come here when they want to know about someone or when they have a problem.

I suspect that as the season winds into winter and fewer snakes are available for sales that posts may well lesson in number. I suspect that next year when snakes start breeding and when babies are available that posts will go up.

Maybe you should consider getting a banner for Fauna and ask that members set it up at different shows they attend to get people to sign up. Offer an upgrade on membership or something as an incentive and just have us send the banner to whomever is using it next. Or get several made and send them out. Relatively cheap but effective advertisement.

It's still a hell of a site. It's still got more personality and more personalities than anyplace else on the web.

And it's still growing up. It's better than it was but not as good as it will be.
 
ms_terese said:
On that, I would say no. You've always known that KS was the preferred advertising site, and I don't think there would be much disagreement to that. I think if you look at the number of classifieds posted during your high traffic months (before paid ads) to the ones posted now,the change in overall participation won't be linked to classifieds.
Click to expand...

Since the statistics code on this site does not give me the ability to be able to determine such a comparison, then I have nothing to go on concerning facts to agree nor disagree with your statement. Posting in anywhere other than the BOI has always been weak on this site and it is my opinion that the discussion forums are not the reason people come here. That is a fight that I have given up on. As for posting on the BOI, it is my impression that this has increased, if anything. So in effect, the only forums on this site that appear to be any attraction at all to people would have to be those related to business aspects of the industry. It is my opinion that I could completely remove all general topic discussion forums from this site and it would not make much difference at all in ACTIVE participation by those members visiting here.

Just for fun, I ran the stats program going back to the end of 2004 (which is as far as I can get stats, since an upgrade at that time wiped out earlier logs) just to see if any trends can be determined. Here's a graph of POSTS made monthly in that timeframe:

posts_2004_to_2007.jpg


And as for THREADS started in that time period, here's the graph of that data:

threads_2004_to_2007.jpg


So what are they telling me? Obviously humps and valleys in traffic. But what were the triggers for the changes? I'm sure the info is here, for anyone willing to dig in and find out...... Quite likely the slumps are triggered by implementing a fee for something or another. But perhaps there are other factors involved as well.
 
deborahbroadus said:
I am new and my opinion means squat, but here it is. When I first became enamored of the reptile hobby I joined both KS and Fauna, because I saw the need to have some kind of sites that would be able to steer me in the right direction. As both sites became a arena for name-calling and bashing, I stopped visiting both; they were too "hardcore" for me, so I actually cut my eyeteeth on Reptileforums.com.

I got around the need for a regulation by simply dealing with Breeders that I already knew and I did not deviate from this strategy. However, as time went on, I saw (as many did) the need to have some kind of regulations some kind of "watchdog" in place as more scammers sprung up, so I came back to Fauna because between the two KS and Fauna...honestly for me Fauna was more "user friendly." The set up was easier to follow.

However, as I have become more familar with the site itself and the postings...I fear that the warnings that I had been given in the beginning have some substance to them. While we breeders do pack a lot of clout and can regulate this trade in a way...the way people get trashed by every person that may have one snake to their name that is already dead leaves a lot to be desired. The breeders and those that have had dealings with those that are scammers should be the only ones posting about their experiences. What I am seeing is every child and teenager has the right to come on here and disrespect everyone. This alone is enough to make people leave.

Trying to be politically correct here. But what I posted is actually what I heard before I came back..but I came back anyway because we do need a regulator/advisor...ahhh, let me shut up.

What I am trying to say is, it's not the fees (imo) many herpers are willing to pay for a QUALITY product. There is more than one issue at work in this situation.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is a tune I have heard before. However when trying to come up with a universal definition of "quality" everyone has their own opinion, seldom shared by more than a few others. And the real stumbling block is that most people would want such a structure forced on all participants to be done by only THEIR definition.

If this site's eventual evolution is to be ONLY the BOI, then perhaps a closer look at what is needed in that direction would be warranted. But quite honestly, I doubt anything new could be brought to the table that either has not been tried already and failed, or discarded as being likely a fruitless effort.
The BOI as you see it now IS the results of evolution after having survived the changes I have tried in order to make it *better*. Barring a revelation, I don't see me making a similar mistake again any time soon.
 
Another thing to look at is Spam posts. How many of the those posts in the higher months were spam and real posts? I personally bounce around in different sites and go where ever the talk is and that depends on the topic. I spend a lot of time on CS. com also. Has the pay to play thing discouraged me? Not at all as I believe it keeps out a lot of the scammers. Just my .02.
 
WebSlave said:
So what are they telling me?
Click to expand...

One thing I suspected before ever looking at your charts, and the charts did confirm what I suspected......

The Winter months are going to have more posts/threads simply because those of us up North are inside a lot more and at our PCs a lot more when it gets cold out.
 
Rich, You know I always say what is on my mind.

Who would have thought I would have ever sent fauna money? But I told you in the past before you ever did it. Charging for the classifieds is a good thing and when I was ready to post ads I would pay to post them here.

I would like to go on record in saying that it was the best 25 bucks I have spent to place ads. I get a TON of people saying they seen my ads HERE! That makes me feel like I spent a good 25 bucks. and to tell you the truth I am and will renew if you keep charging. I like to think I offer high quality animals. And I have thought about it but every time I do I wonder why send KS money when Fauna and my sites do me just fine.

I get buyers from here bro. I really do. I think on KS i would be emailing people back pics just becuase they want pics. Not becuase they are interested in the animal.

I know we have butted heads many many times. I did not agree with charging for the BOI. But I do agree with charging for the ads. It is only fair IMO that I give you something for helping me sell.

If you do not charge I will continue to place ads here. I probably will still send you that 25 bucks. Only fair like I said. I see one thing though. the people that will place ad after ad after ad to fill the page will now have others to compete with lol.

But from a person selling here. I get a lot of people saying they seen me here. So it is getting the traffic. Just the fluff is gone. But like everyone says cut away the fat and give me the meat lmao.
 
99Vengeur said:
Speaking from my own position.....new to keeping and breeding snakes.

I feel the payment requirement for posting in the classifieds might put a hamper on the hobbyist breeders. Those people who have a single pair or two of reptiles that they have bred and are not looking to turn it into a business, might feel that their hobby has to become a business in order to cover the subscription fee. Now, I know it's not all that expensive, but if you only produce a few babies a year, some might not be up to rationalizing the fee to sell on Fauna.

I have tossed this idea around quite a bit myself. Do I pay to sell here, knowing the snakes will go to someone that has a true interest in reptiles...or try my hand with local pet stores, where the buyer is likely to be an impulse buyer or ignorant to the requirement for properly caring for a reptile. (I am aware that these stereotypes do not hold true for all people in either arena.)

Also, with the current setup, people have to pay in order to advertise for wanted animals. I feel this also impedes the growth of individuals and the overall herp culture and hobby. If I'm looking for one specific animal to complete or compliment my collection, why do I need to pay to inquire about any available animals?

I'm not sure how others feel, so I open the floor to further discussion. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
While I understand your point - there are other issues that come into play. Sure, everybody likes to get something for nothing...but free classifieds come at a cost, too. More scam ads, for example. The cost of advertising here is a pittance...and the contributing membership offers other perquisites that come along with that $25/yr.
For the hobbiest producing a few clutches a year - particularly snakes - there is also the issue of preparedness to ship. If the $25/yr fee cannot be justified to advertise the snakes, how likely is it that the person (this is not directed at you, btw) will be shipping in a manner that meets "industry standards" and is in compliance with both Federal regulations and the carrier's TOS? Sure, one can advertise for local pickup only...but there are probably other venues better suited to attracting local buyers.

Rich, I understand the quandary...but, as usual, there is no perfect answer. I think that the impact of the paid classifieds has been largely positive, though I suspect that there are a number of people that just chose to take their advertising elsewhere (I wonder how many of them balked at $25/yr here, and then turned around and paid $20 for a month at KS). Anyway - assuming that the post/thread count numbers are reflective of the site as a whole, the relative decrease in discussion forum posts could explain a lot of it. Are the discussion forums suffering because people don't want to pay to advertise??? I don't think to any great extent...but that is based on nothing more than opinion.
 
And, as Gary said (and I mentioned in another thread elsewhere), while KS has a higher profile classifieds, I do better with my ads here. I get a lot more responses from KS ads - usually questions already answered in the ads, picture seekers, and scams, lol - but the success rate (in terms of sales generated) for me is better here. That could just as well be because I am known on Fauna, but if I wasn't already paying anyway, it would certainly make sense for me to do so.
 
I agree with both Gary and Harald on this. I haven't placed an ad on KS in over a year because I got tired of the Nigerian scammers. I do get one occasionally here but I have sold everything I advertised compared to an occasional sell on KS. I think this forum gives me more bang for my buck!

And Gary, I met you at the Wheaton show about a month ago and I did see your ads here before I met you! Chalk another one up!
 
WebSlave said:
So what are they telling me? Obviously humps and valleys in traffic. But what were the triggers for the changes? I'm sure the info is here, for anyone willing to dig in and find out...... Quite likely the slumps are triggered by implementing a fee for something or another. But perhaps there are other factors involved as well.
Click to expand...

No, if you really look at the graphs, they are very much seasonal. This probably coincides with the breeding seasons, and when hatchlings become available for sale.
 
In my first post, this was just one observation/opinion. I have no doubt, that when I produce my first clutch, that I will turn to Fauna for finding homes for my babies. On KS, I don't find the site and forums to be all that user friendly. I think they are easier to navigate on Fauna. I agree that the fee keeps some of the spammers out, however, an occasional BS thread pops up here and there. The fee for the classifieds is all part of the hobby. It is unreasonable for us to expect something for nothing. Even if there is less traffic on the site due to the imposed fee, the people still left should be the ones we feel we can trust with our animals...not only for selling, but also for all the helpful advise that is given.
 
Back
Top