Neil Gubitz-BAD GUY/BAD EXPERIENCE

ØHere is my bad experience in purchasing a star tortoise from Neil Gubitz. On 2/18/03 I contacted Neil via phone about the purchase of a male Star tortoise he had advertised. We discussed the animal and he assured me that he was captive bred and that some local guy brought him into his place. We agreed on a price of $500.00 shipped. I told Neil it was too cold to ship as I live in NY and the temps were in the teens. I told him I would pay him now and wait till the weather warmed up for him to ship. He said he would put heat packs in the box and promised that there would be no problems. I said ok as he was the expert. He said he was waiting for some boxes and that he would ship out Monday the 24th. Tuesday the 25th came and I received the tortoise. Here are our e-mails:
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Ø“Neil, tortoise came in yesterday. Didnt get a chance to get on thecomputer yesterday. He seems fine although he has refused food and drink. Keep you posted. Thanks, John.”
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ØThat was sent on the 26th when I got home from work at what I perceived as within his 24 hr. guarantee period.


Ø“Refused food????.... He was eating a half a head of romaine EVERYDAY!!.... he's probably just stressed from the move and scared....You're not letting him see your face with the mask off, are you??....
lmao”

....Neil %>))

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ØSent the 28th. Noticed night of the 27th.

Ø“Hey Neil, he probably refused food because he has a respitory infection. He is set up properly, but he is blowing bubbles out of his nostrils. What would you like to do? Thanks, John.”
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“John.... What??, Are you kidding me???.... Or are you just having
"buyer's remorse"?.... He was FINE when he left here, he was eatingeverything I put in his tank with GUSTO!.... He was owned (from birth) by my VET???.... He had the best care for his whole life than any other.... if he's got a respiratory infection, I honestly don't knowwhat to do about that, other than keep him warm....
What are you expecting me to do, other than say, make a fortune with all his babies....???”

....Neil %>))
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> Buyer’s remorse?? Sound a little condescending to you??? What happened to the guy that brought him in our first conversation?? Now it’s his Vet??
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Ø“No, I am not kidding. And no, I am not having buyer’s remorse. You said someone brought him in, now that someone happens to be your vet? I am a little annoyed because I said I would wait to get him because it was so cold here and you said it would be no problem to ship. And now here I have a $500 tortoise blowing bubbles out his nose. If you know about stars you know they can be susceptible to runny nose syndrome once they get it once. I really don't feel I received, nor should I have to deal, with an animal that not is100%. What do you propose is fair?”
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Ø“John.... As you know, there were two 40-hour heatpacks in the
styro-lined box.... I will be HAPPY to give you the phone number of the vet that owned him.... and he WAS brought in to me.... by HER (the Vet).... I'm sorry, John.... but, I will not take him back.... but, Iwill try to help you with him any way I can??.... including giving you her phone number....”

....Neil %>))
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I then called Neil via telephone in which we got in to a very heated argument. I offered to send him back and Neil flatly refused. He actually admitted that the “vet “ which brought the tortoise in was not actually his vet as he had implied, but a vet in his area. He said he had to do more research to find this out. Do you think he should have done this research before I purchased this animal, since I was very concerned as to where it came from? Why does the story keep changing?
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So now we have Neil Gubitz, the guy who is always telling people to do the right thing, basically telling me tough S^%t. I told him I would bring this up on the BOI and he responding by saying “Do you think I give a F$$k what those people think?” And I guess his guarantee is meaningless!! What 24 hrs.? I guess his guarantee is giving me the phone number of someone who may or may not be his vet, and who may or may not be the original owner!! What a great guarantee!! What a way to stand by your animals!! And why was he in such a hurry to ship? More concerned with money than an animals well being? What a great guy to do business with!!




John Martino

John,

I suggest that you post the entire e-mails (with edited language if needed) and not just copied blurbs from them. This will give a true idea of timeline and responses. Also as far as the 24 hour period, you notified him that the animal was not eating. That is nothing to return the animal for. Most reptiles have an adjustment period after being shipped. You did not say anything about a URI until the 28th. I am sorry that your tortoise is showing signs of URI and I suggest you take it to your Vet immediately ( if you have not already) to get treatment but the 28th is not within his 24 hour period. That is over 48 hours after arrival close to 72 hours. The animal showed no signs of URI when you received it or within the 24 hour period. There is no way of knowing for sure that is the reason the animal did not eat right away. I have had tortoise's in the past eat like pigs with a URI and I have had some that would not eat at all with URI. Like I said I am sorry that your animal is showing signs of being ill and you should have taken it to a vet by now to treatment. I hope you have done this to ensure the animal gets well.
Also there are other posts about Neil. This thread should have been placed in one of those other threads instead of starting a new thread.

I am sorry to hear about your animal. I would hope Neil does care what the people who view these threads think. It makes his supporters/friends look kinda foolish if that is the way he truly feels.

Casey.... Of course I care what is said on this board.... and I was surprised it took John so long to post.... what he didn't tell you is that, not only, did I put the Tortoise in a secure Play-Pal plastic container, but then I wrapped the whole container in TWO OF MY DISH TOWELS to MAKE SURE that he was warm enough on the trip.... then put in a NEW styro-lined box.... there was a 40-hr heatpack under him, and there was anther one over him.... John even told me they were still warm??.... There is NO WAY that he arrived with a URI.... I don't buy it for a second!.... So, in closing.... John.... enjoy your Star and keep him warm....

BTW.... Rob, those emails are basically intact.... as soon as he wrote me that FIRST email, I KNEW I was going to have trouble.... But, it's alright, I KNOW he's got a healthy Star!

....Neil

A few points:

First to Rob:

John Had every right to post his dealings with Neal in a new thread.....After all this is a new topic isn't it........

Second:

Neil, should for do the right thing and offer some assistance other then giving a phone # of the previous owner. There have been times that I have sold an animal and it contracted an RI weeks after it was received by the customer and I have offered assistance through out the animals recovery. I NEVER IN 100 YEARS would pass the buck to the animals previous owner.

Third:

Why in the world would Neil ship an animal to New York in the dead of winter. I have customers now that are waiting for animals because I will not ship in weather ever when it is above freezing.

I also find it very suspect that Neil was in a rush to get rid of the animal so fast. Perhaps he knew it was ill...Makes me wonder....Finally, animals that are sick usually will not eat......so John did the right thing by telling Neil that the animals was off food...He is well within the 24 hour period of Neil's service agreement.

Russ Lockenwitz
RL Reptiles
http://www.visioncages.com

IMHO. As soon as he emailed his concern about the animal not eating, that in itself should extend the 24hr period until he was satisfied that he got a healthy tortoise.
Rob, If he was concerned when the animal was not interested in eating or drinking, what should he have done? Demand to return it? Wait a day or two to see if it improved?
I think he had not yet signed off on the "satisfaction " part.
I live in Michigan, and I would not ship an animal in these extreme cold temperatures, due to the fact that heat paks can and do fail, and there is no need to unnecessarily stress an animal. John said he would be happy to wait.

As far as me telling Neil that the heat packs were still warm that is an out an out lie. I never told him that. He actually mentioned that to me on the phone when he said "aren't you the guy who e-mailed me saying the heat packs were still warm" I replied, NO he must be mistaken. He then said that he gets too many e-mails a day to keep track. There were also no towels in the package for whatever that means, there was the plastic container filled w/shavings and surrounded by newspaper, but there were NO towels. I don't care how many heat packs were in that box, I don't know too many people that would ship when the temperatures are in the teens. The e-mails are copied and paste verbatim. I can and will take him to the vet, although I am not used to having to take (in Neils words) perfectly healthy animals to the vet. To identify an illness in 24 hours may be difficult as we all know, but to identify what may be a symptom of an underlying problem I felt I was making him aware. And as far as an animal who you have been told was eating 1/2 a head of lettuce a day refusing food altogether, this could definately be perceived as a symptom of bad health. As far as Neil knowing that I have a healthy Star, why wouldn't he be willing to take it back, instead of having an unhappy customer. Who, by the way, was a repeat customer. Isn't he the one who says the customer is always right.

Poor John,
Must not have read my posts on th Neil Gubitz Good Guy thread.
Probably just saw that it was a good guy thread and assumed it had a bunch of good things about Neil in it and felt it was safe to buy. I am sure that if Neil does send what you order then the experience is a great one, but as you and I have learned, if you are not satisfied you are in for a roller coaster ride. Good luck with yours.

Man it was in the 20's here in Maryland on Monday and Tesuday.
It was way colder in New Jersey.

Why in such a hurry to ship even against the customers wishes?

Gee, seems to me that I was just responding to something similair to this in the upstate thread.
First off, I would like to say that I have NOTHING personally against Neil.
He shipped me a Rosy for my daughter and it was fine. I live in MI and we both knew it was cold and he did not have styrofoam packaging, but promised to find a way to send it safe. And he did, there was only one heat packed but it was still working and the best heat pack I have seen. I got the two kitchen towels. So when I write this it is with a heavy heart and not intended to personally attack Neil, but to stick up for what I feel is right.

Ok with that said. There seems to be a problem as of late with sellers not following through. Dave is a fine example of that. There is no excuse for him not getting his money back. If it was an email problem you can look on this board, just click his name and, low and behold, his email address. Neil, in Daves case you were wrong, it is up to YOU to make it right. And you should ASAP, better late than never and have it keep coming back.
Sticking to nothing but the facts, Dave proved the snake was smaller than advertised and it was a male when he wanted and paid for a female.
In Johns turtle case, he did notify you within twenty four hours that he thought something was amiss with the turtle because it was not eating.
Get the junk out of the message, phone calls are heresay, throw it out, where Neil got it from is irrelevent, throw it out.
What is left? A guy got a turtle he is not satisfied with and notified you within your set time limit.
I think you are a nice person Neil from talking to you on the phone, please do not put yourself on the same shelf Upstate is on. Give Dave his money you said that you would, and see if maybe you and John can come to a nice compromise.