Hets, paperwork and records

Well like the title says: hets, paperwork and records.

I have posted a few questions directed to the seller, the buyer and then to everyone including the sellers and buyers.

When selling hets, how do you provide proof?

When buying hets, what have you received as proof?

What do you think should be the standard for selling hets?

Ugh.... hets

This is just my opinion and it is as follows.

When selling hets I include a print out with the snake including a photo of the snake being sold, BOTH parents and documentation of the clutch.

Example:

Het Pied Male #01-005
Hatched 5-17-2010
(photo of snake being sold)

Parents
Pied Male
(Photo of male)

Het Pied Female
(photo of female)

Clutch ratio
7 eggs: 1.1 pieds 3.2 het pieds
(photo of full clutch)

Now I know not every breeder can take the time to do something like that. When buying hets I look for a few things:

Does the seller have any visuals of the morphs he is selling het for?

If not what documentation/guarantee is provided?

If seller has no visuals or proof and the documentation/guarantee is shoddy or nonexistent, then I move on.

If the seller has a very good reputation (example NERD, VPI, or other VERY well known breeders) then I will make exceptions to the documentation.

Also if the entire clutch is present and for sale (let's say corn snakes) and I can see anery, amel, and stripe then I may buy one of the normals knowing that I've seen the clutch and it's most likely a het.

Price also plays a big factor when I am looking at hets. If I am paying $1000 for a het "New gene X" ball python then I will look for more proof since it's new rare morph that not many average joe might have. If I see Jimmy McVendor down the row selling "het gene X" for $200 I really have my doubts about the legitimacy of those hets.

Hets are in many ways a calculated risk. You have to know going in that there is a little bit of luck being tested. You may hit the genetic lottery or you may get a big pile of normals.

I keep it simple.

1. I provide documentation with my brand having a clear picture of the animal with Identifying Marks, wording guaranteeing that the animal is 100% Het for (insert morph here), and my signature at the bottom and date.

I keep a copy of this documentation so that if the buyer has poor luck (he shouldn't) after several tries, I can identify the animal as one of mine.

2. When buying Hets, I only buy from established breeders or someone that I know and trust.

3. I think the Standard should be at least documentation such as mine or Autumn's so that the buyer has some recourse (if only being able to post on the BOI the evidence and his own records showing repeat failures to prove even when paired with a visual).

Also, if the seller states "Purchased from so and so, and I have documentation" then I believe that the documentation should be posted in the AD next to the animal so that people can make immediate comparisons and call the originator of the snake for verification.

Originally Posted by DAND

When selling hets, how do you provide proof?

I've never provided proof or been asked for any. You either trust me or you don't.
Should a buyer request photo documentation I'm sure I could fix some up, but unless they're not planning to breed it, they really don't need it.

Originally Posted by DAND

When buying hets, what have you received as proof?

I did receive some paperwork on some hets back in 2003 or 2004 from a breeder (his policy, I didn't ask for it), no idea where that paperwork is. Aside from that I've never received anything, I only buy from breeders I trust.

Originally Posted by DAND

What do you think should be the standard for selling hets?

The standard should be non reproducible paperwork or none at all. If the paperwork can be duplicated with a scanner and photoshop, then it is essentially worthless.
So far I've never seen any paperwork that was worth the stick of firewood it was printed on. I could put the pic of any snake on it with 15 or 20 minutes on the computer.

I suppose certain pics that included a hand written note positioned so that it would be difficult to replace the pic of the snake would be adequate. However, I'm of the opinion that original paperwork, if it is to be provided, should be embossed with a raised imprint, similar to a notary stamp, that was positioned over both the picture and the signature. That would make it virtually impossible to reproduce.
Aside from that my opinion is paperwork is meaningless, buy hets from breeders who you personally can take at their word.
If you don't know me or don't feel you can trust me, don't buy hets from me.
No sort of paperwork would cause me to buy a het from someone I didn't already trust, and if I trust them I don't need paperwork.

Originally Posted by Clay Davenport

Aside from that my opinion is paperwork is meaningless, buy hets from breeders who you personally can take at their word.
If you don't know me or don't feel you can trust me, don't buy hets from me.
No sort of paperwork would cause me to buy a het from someone I didn't already trust, and if I trust them I don't need paperwork.

A very good point.

I might could see that some breeders would like to have that documentation for tracking the genetics of an animal.... but if you dont trust me enough to buy a het without some sort of paperwork... then why should the paperwork make you trust me more.

Anyone can put anything on paper and it wouldnt mean nothing.... what I mean by this is.... lets say I put a photo of a normal BP on the paper.. .and say it came from a cross between an albino and a het albino. How do you really know?

The paperwork should not be there to make you trust me... the paperwork should be there to show lineage and nothing else.

What if I fell on hard times and had to sell a.....


1056g adult 100% het pied female that I bought from so and so. If I dont have any paper work, and not much of a of a sellers rep, than original papers are needed for unknown people build a rep. JMO

And to answer the original question Ive only recieved paper work once, from Jimi Reed. I was satisfied with it.

I think it helps to have the papers. But yea its easy to doctor up some fake ones.

kinda six to one half a dozen to other..

I agree with the above. I've bought a few second hand hets and I felt more comfortable with paperwork that could be confirmed by the snake's original breeder.

I like the idea of the signature and stamp covering part of the picture.

Any tips for software or a template that would simplify making guarantees for hets you've produced?

I have quite a few hets that I don't have paperwork for...I bought from people I know personally, so I never asked for it. The hets that I do have paperwork for, all I have is a photo of the snake, a statement that it's guaranteed to be 100% het for [morph],and it's signed by the breeder.

I haven't sold any hets yet, so I haven't decided what to do about paperwork exactly as of right now....

Originally Posted by MagickalMorphs

I agree with the above. I've bought a few second hand hets and I felt more comfortable with paperwork that could be confirmed by the snake's original breeder.

I like the idea of the signature and stamp covering part of the picture.

Any tips for software or a template that would simplify making guarantees for hets you've produced?

I use MSWord.

If I were buying hets, personally I would want the option of paperwork. If i'm buying from someone fairly well known (fauna wise) chances are I wouldn't ask for the papers. If they aren't well known, it just makes you feel a little bit better about buying them. Even if the paperwork is relitively easy to reproduce or fake, I keep records of proof of purchase when I buy online. With my reciept with the sellers name and paper with pictures of the parents and snake and a signiture, if I got burned it would be difficult to dispute.