venomoid creators good bad?

Ok, ken I hope this wont get me in trouble.
lets get this started it cost me 2 warning points.

ok I dont hate people that own them [venomoids] its the creators that need to be shut down.

Do you think that unlicenced in the garage snake hackers are ok?
or would a licensed vet be a better choice?

if they are not a licensed vet how do they get the supplies like
the gasses needed to do it right and the other stuff?


sorry for my rant )

Here's what I posted on the Venomdoc forums on the subject.


It is a painful and invasive cosmetic procedure that has no health benefits to the patient. My primary issue with venomoids is the "home butcher" problem of amateur profiteers who do their inhumane operations without appropriate pain relieving drugs and in some cases without sterile surgical equipment.

I do retain some ethical concerns about this procedure even when it is done professionally, because it is invasive and there is pain and physical trauma involved with no health benefit to the patient. Neutering can have significant health and longevity benefits to the mammalian patient as well as alleviating concerns about the birth of more animals which may not recieve adequate care.

No veterinarian will refuse to do a spay or a neuter, and some volunteer their time at humane shelters to do this good service for patients who do not have paying owners. Many veterinarians refuse to perform cosmetic, owner-benefit only procedures such as declawing, debarking or decorative ear piercing. The ethics of the former procedure are well accepted; the ethics of the latter type of procedure are considered very questionable in the veterinary profession.

Iguana castration as behavioral management has also been debated on veterinary forums for the same ethical concerns - it benefits the owner only, and does not seem to have any direct health benefits for the patient. The general feeling among vets is that they may agree to do these procedures if the animal's only other option is euthanasia or abandonment, but that is a more likely scenario for a dog or an iguana than for a venomous snake.

I think that some people have more romantic ideas about venomous snakes than the facts really warrant. A venomous snake is not physically difficult to manage - it's just a tube of muscle with one sharp dangerous pointy end and another end that can shower you with unpleasant but harmless effluvia. A cat or an iguana is a more physically difficult patient to restrain for veterinary purposes. All the television hype about how difficult it is to handle "aggressive" venomous snakes is absolute twaddle. But I suppose it is a myth that some venomous keepers might want to keep alive because it makes them feel special.

Even the relatively unskilled zookeeper may use all sorts of safety equipment and sedative drugs if necessary to handle venomous snakes with very little hands-on contact or risk. My feeling is that it is the keeper's responsibility to acquire the safety equipment and the appropriate skills. Chopping pieces off of snakes as a quick shortcut substitute for learned skills is on the ethically dubious side, even if the chopping is done by a veterinarian.

I've had a bit of experience with surgical interventions in venomous snakes, and it is not a pain free situation even when you are very careful to be minimally invasive and to give a schedule of pain medication. A snake that is in pain responds differently than a snake that isn't, sometimes in a clinically measurable way.

One mamba with a shattered and protruding jaw took more than ten times the standard dose of Diazepam without slowing down. Response to isoflurane was also delayed and caused potentially injurious struggle, so we had to induce with propofol. Other animals of the same species and heavier body weight are effectively sedated at less than a tenth of the dose she was given. After several weeks of healing and regular pain medication, this animal stopped showing behavioral signs of pain and was easily sedated for radiographs with a standard dose of the benzodiazepene.

Snakes feel pain. They do suffer during post-op recovery, even when medication is given to minimize their discomfort. If the pain is bad enough, the drugs don't work so well. Consider the analogy of a human in a hospital after an operation - there is some pain, even with the best efforts of doctors to keep the patient as pain free as possible. Many veterinarians do not even make a practice of giving pain medications to reptiles, though the recent trends in research are urging vets to add this humane protocol to their reptile practice.

The venomoid operation itself is a painful and invasive procedure. I do not see sufficient ethical justification in very many situations for subjecting an animal to this procedure. It is the keeper's responsibility to care for the animal in a way that is appropriate and humane for the animal and safe for the keeper. If the skill or equipment to do this properly is lacking, the animal simply should not be kept.

I posted an ad about a male blizzard monocle cobra I had for sale in which I stated that he had undergone a devenomization procedure. In response I got this email:

"You stupid douchebag!!!! Why the fuck would you get a beautiful cobra, from a well respected cobra breeder and try to get it venomoided!? If you can't handle a hot cobra, You shouldn't buy one in the first place...you should give that poor butchered snake to someone who will appreciate and respect it for what it is...then get rid of the rest of your pets, since you obviously cannot handle the responsibility, and go play in traffic. "

I would like to reply to this moron and every other moron that thinks there is something wrong with devenomizing snakes. First of all, if you are against venomoids you are against reptiles. Venomoids bring people into the hobby that otherwise would not be interested. By attacking venomoids you are attacking the reptile community as a whole. Second, devenomization isn't cruel. It is the same as having your child circumcised, your cat neutered, or your dogs ears clipped. Evolution doesn't always have our best interest in mind and my cobra does not seem to care or mind that his glands have been removed. Third, it is safer for you, your neighbors, and your snake. Getting a venomous snake devenomized is the responsible and appropriate thing to do and everyone should have their snake devenomized. It isn't about whether or not you can keep a hot snake, rather it's about being safe than sorry. To further elaborate on the matter here is what I wrote to a friend of mind as we were debating about the issue:
" I am aware of the fact that many people do not recognize venomoid snakes on the grounds that the procedure is both cruel and ineffective. I disagree with both of those arguments. In regards to the first objection, opponents argue that the procedure is cruel and have compared it to having a cat declawed. Opponents also argue that the snakes venom aids in pre-digestion, and some have even stated that it changes the snakes personality. Finally, opponents of venomoids argue that removing the glands causes the snakes face to sink in.
There is a problem with each one of these arguments. First, it is not adequate to compare a devenomized snake with a declawed cat. The snakes fangs will not be removed, only the glands. A more suitable analogy would be comparing to a cat that has been neutered. Second, monocled cobras do not need venom to digest their food, they have some of the most powerful amino acids in the animal kingdom. Lab tests have established this as a fact and I have personally worked with venomoids in PA at my uncles house and have not noticed any signs of illness in any of the snakes. If I honestly thought this would injure the animal I would never consider owning one. I also have not noticed a change in the snakes attitude. All of the animals are assertive and alert and I do not believe they are aware of the fact that they can no longer produce venom. Finally, opponents state that the snakes face will begin to sink in after the surgery. This is true, however, veterinarians now put prosthetic glands in place of the removed glands. This prevents the snakes face from sinking in.
Opponents also argue that the surgery is ineffective and that the snakes still produce venom. This is because when veterinarians first started doing the procedure they only removed the venom ducts and not the venom glands. The venom ducts can grow back allowing the snakes to produce venom after surgery. As a result many of the snakes on the market thought to be venomoids continued to produce venom. Now veterinarians remove the gland, which cannot grow back. The only way the snake would still be able to produce venom is if the surgeon left part of the gland, or some gland cells, in the snakes cavity. However, there is a way to test for this type of malpractice. Three months after the surgery the owner can do a live mouse test or milk the snake. If the snake is still producing venom he can be brought back to the vet for a follow up. If the snake is not producing venom the owner should test again in another three months. If the animal is still not producing then it will be an established venomoid. Venomoids greatly reduce the risk of owning a venomous snake for both the owner and the public and devenomization should be considered a means of preventing serious injury.


RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by Existential on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
If You want a snake without venom, get one. If you feel that you can't safely keep a venomous snake, don't get one. Its obviously pointless to argue with you, from what I've heard from others and the tone of your post, but it seems to me that you shouldn't have venomous if you're that uncomfortable about it.

RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by theemojohnm on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!

The role of venoms (even neurotoxic compounds) is still not largely understood.

I really didn't think you'd have the nerve to go through with posting this, but I guess some are that moronic.. What is your reasoning, despite all these ridiculous statements made trying to down-play the severity of the procedure on the animal’s health..?

Since you were obviously aware that posting this would aggravate a lot of people, why post it here..? Take this idiotic post to the venomoid boards.

We keep venomous snakes because we are fascinated by just that, venomous snakes.. If you are too incompetent to keep venomous animals; then don't. There are many 'venomoid' species that occur naturally.. These are generally known as NON-venomous snakes! So why should you have to create one, for your own selfish, cowardly, and egotistical benefit..?!

Keep garter snakes (oh wait, many Thamnophis species DO possess neurotoxins, venomoid them too?) if you lack the mental capacity to keep venomous snakes. Don't mutilate an animal for your own ‘benefit‘.

The spaying and neutering of domestic animals is intended to keep uncontrollable numbers down, and help the species population(s) as a whole.. (I do NOT believe in 'de-clawing', either). Surgical alteration of venomous snakes serves no purpose, and if anything, DOES harm the animal. (Like say, opening the animal up TO INFECTION, apparently a complication of the procedure preformed ON YOUR ANIMAL, according to your classified ad).. No purpose exists except serving your own deranged purpose.

I can't see this thread staying open very long, and hopefully it won't. I will say that, now that I know who you are, at that you are located in my state, I will do everything in my power to make obtaining animals as hard as I possibly can for you. I'm present (along with other P.W.H.S. reps) at many of the states shows, and have many great friendships with many (most) show dealers and show promoters in the state. We advocate responsible private husbandry, and efforts beneficial to the species. Neither of which apply to you.

Can't take the heat..? Then, get out of the kitchen..








Sincerely,

-John Mendrola
(Pennsylvania Woodland Herpetological)

RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by theemojohnm on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
* The role of venoms (even neurotoxic compounds) IN DIGESTION* is still not largely understood.

RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by theemojohnm on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!


Also, please post links to published refferences thess 'lab tests', proving the digestive effects of venomid N. kaouthia..

RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by jared on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
"Now veterinarians remove the gland, which cannot grow back. The only way the snake would still be able to produce venom is if the surgeon left part of the gland, or some gland cells, in the snakes cavity." THis statement is also 100% correct and the fact that you say you had surgery at a VCA hospital is just about the equivalent of saying that you had it done at banfield. Could you please post some contact info for you surgeon because I have worked with vetrinary specialist and surgeons for years and none have EVER heard of that in any form. Glands in ophidians can regenerate just as they can in mammals the process is slower that is why I am guessing you said to retest 2 over 6 months. My Drs here would also love to see any link, data, or ANYTHING that would show a VCA did this surgery.

Jared Watts
Director R&T Wildlife Response Inc

RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by jared on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
That is 100% INCORRECT.

RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by tommyblake81 on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
The main gist of your argument seems to be that if I cannot own a venomous snake then I shouldn't own a venomoid. Yet when someone with an IQ over that of 50 investigates this argument they will quickly see that it falls apart. First of all just because I own a venomoid doesn't mean I am incapable of, or scared to, own a hot. My father owned hots and I grew up with gaboon vipers and rhino vipers my whole life and am very capable of handling them. What your stating really isn't even an argument and it appears that you have resorted to "teasing" me about the matter which would be expected of someone with a low IQ. I own a venomoid because it is the responsible thing to do. Arguing that devenomization is wrong is the irresponsible. Everyone who owns a venomous snake should go get its glands removed. It is simply the mature thing to do as keeping venomous snakes only ads unnecessary risk to our hobby. I do not own a venomoid snake because I am incapable of owning a venomous snake I own a venomoid snake simply because I feel it is the more responsible thing to do and is safer. If you want to act like a stupid hill billy and play with venomous snakes go ahead. Also, you wrote "The spaying and neutering of domestic animals is intended to keep uncontrollable numbers down, and help the species population." This is true but most people do it so their cats don't spray piss in their house and so they don't go into heat. This would indicate that they altered the animal to better fit a domesticated lifestyle in the house. I have done the same thing to my snake. He is no longer in a state of nature but rather in a state of captivity and should be altered to fit the said state.

Regarding your other points it is interesting to see that you resorted to lying. First you wrote, "Surgical alteration of venomous snakes serves no purpose, and if anything, DOES harm the animal. (Like say, opening the animal up TO INFECTION, apparently a complication of the procedure preformed ON YOUR ANIMAL." First, devenomization does serve a purpose, it keeps people from being injured by their animals. This is called being responsible. Arguing that snakes shouldn't be devenomized is irresponsible and only serves your deranged, child like, ignorant, immature, delusional, negligent, self righteous cause. Second, opening the animal up does expose it to the risk of infection but they give it medicine so it doesn't get infected. My snake didn't have an infection as a result of the procedure, I stated that the vet supposedly found an infection in the gland when she opened the snake up. An infection that could have killed the snake if it wasn't found. In this case devenomizing my snake actually saved it from death by infection. You then write, " We advocate responsible private husbandry, and efforts beneficial to the species. Neither of which apply to you." Yet what you are arguing is the exact opposite of responsible. You just want to play with venomous snakes because you're a dumb hick and not feel guilty if you get bit. You are trying to force you're opinions on other people and silence the opposition. This seems a little communistic to me. People can do whatever they want with their personnel property. If I feel this is ethical it is my choice and I encourage other people to do it as well.
Next you claim that, " * The role of venoms (even neurotoxin compounds) IN DIGESTION* is still not largely understood." Well here is what is understood. No snake has ever had a problem as a result of it's in ability to inject venom. My snake is healthy and shows no sign of illness. If it did, I would gladly advocate against venomoids, but it doesn't. You are just lying to discourage people from owning venomoids. Which they should. Also, I noticed that when I feed my snakes frozen thawed they don't even use their venom they just eat the prey. This makes sense since hots like to conserve their venom for defense and wouldn't want to waste it when they don't have to ( I actually might post a video of my snake doing this). Monocle cobras also eat eggs and I have documented them not using venom when eating their eggs as well. You're friend also claimed that, " Glands in ophidians can regenerate just as they can in mammals the process is slower that is why I am guessing you said to retest 2 over 6 months. " This is a lie. The text book, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" by Douglas R. Mader, clearly documents that once the glands are removed they don't grow back. Also, here is a link to another site that states that the glands can't grow back and verifies everything I said, " http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm". Another site by venomoid inc actually performs the surgeries and guaranties that the snake will remain 100% venomoid it's whole life. The address is, " http://www.venomoidinc.com/home/". Also, here is a website to where my snake had his surgery done, "http://www.vcahospitals.com/smoketown/our-team/veterinarians.html". The surgery was performed by Dr. Cooper. You can call to verify that they do the surgeries. This should answer all you're equivocations.
In conclusion I would like to all of the readers to note that these individuals are immature and irresponsible. They are communist who want to shut people who think differently up and are arguing points that are detrimental to the reptile community. If you are against venomoids you are against reptiles. They don't care about the snakes, they just want to destroy the private reptile industry and anything that would make it more interesting. The surgery doesn't harm the animal, they are just acting like dumb girls because they aren't manly; they are just sensitive little communist who got shoved in the locker to many times and now want to stand for something.


RE: Venomoids Are Awesome Reply
by tommyblake81 on December 18, 2010 Mail this to a friend!
Also, I don't care if what I write "hurts people's feelings". The stigma against venomoids is ridiculous and someone needs to tell the reptile community to man up and stop acting like girls. Little dweebs like you who just want to take up any low level cause your incompetent little minds think you are capable of handling have controlled the narrative for too long. You have weak personalities and it is time for real mean to control the narrative and shut your fucking mouths. You nag and scorn worse than my wife. Stop lying and trying to get the tread taken down so people can't see the truth and deal with that fact that this battle is Lost and venomoids are the future ! They will become popular ! In fact I have about $50,000 in the bank just laying around collecting dust and I think I just found a great way of spending some of it. HOPE TO SEE YOU AT THE NEXT REPTILE SHOW WITH MY STAND THAT WILL BE DEVOTED TO SELLING STRICTLY VENOMOID SNAKES. In fact, that sound like a great name for a website, STRICTLY VENOMOIDS. Maybe I will give away the first $500.00 just to put more venomoids on the market and show everyone how great they.

Originally Posted by snakegetters

Chopping pieces off of snakes as a quick shortcut substitute for learned skills is on the ethically dubious side, even if the chopping is done by a veterinarian.
....
The venomoid operation itself is a painful and invasive procedure. I do not see sufficient ethical justification in very many situations for subjecting an animal to this procedure. It is the keeper's responsibility to care for the animal in a way that is appropriate and humane for the animal and safe for the keeper. If the skill or equipment to do this properly is lacking, the animal simply should not be kept.

+1 Well said

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

I would like to reply to this moron and every other moron that thinks there is something wrong with devenomizing snakes.

I don't think its warranted to call people moron because people have differing opinion than you.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

First of all, if you are against venomoids you are against reptiles.

I just don't see how one would be against the hobby if they are against altering an animal. IMHO your point is drastically flawed.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

Venomoids bring people into the hobby that otherwise would not be interested. By attacking venomoids you are attacking the reptile community as a whole.

I think they bring the wrong type of people into the hobby. Venomous creatures should be respected and handled in such manner. They are not for everyone. Time, patience, and practice goes into owning such animals. People who jump into venomous via venomoids are taking a shortcut, which can cause a false sense of security and confidence which can result in a bite. This endanger the hobby, the individual, and other around him/her.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

Second, devenomization isn't cruel. It is the same as having your child circumcised, your cat neutered, or your dogs ears clipped.

That's in the eye of the beholder. Some might say circumcision is cruel and unnecessary in the 21st century. Also all your exam have legit reasons for doing it. For example: circumcision -- hygienic reasons; neutering -- reduce aggression, to prevent unwanted offspring; cropping a dog's ears -- done for protective reasons at one time. What's the reaons for removing the venom gland of venomous snake (other than selfish reasons)?

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

Evolution doesn't always have our best interest in mind and my cobra does not seem to care or mind that his glands have been removed.

How do you know your cobra doesn't mind? If you learned to talk with them I would LOVE to know how it's done.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

Third, it is safer for you, your neighbors, and your snake. Getting a venomous snake devenomized is the responsible and appropriate thing to do and everyone should have their snake devenomized.

The resposible thing to do is not to own one. But if the reasons are right and urge is too strong to keep one, the "responsible and appropriate thing to do" is getting proper training from a mentor.

I didn't bother to read the email right now. I will though. The way I see it, who ever or whatever you believe in, be it God, evolution, or both, venomous snakes became the way they are for a reason. I think it's our responsibility as hobbyist to preserve that, respect that, and educate others. Hots are not meant for everyone, they require dedication, patience, great knowledge and skill. Venomoids, IMHO, are a dangerous and misleading option. The wrong type of people are getting into it and it's sending a wrong message to the public.

Only reason IMO a venomoid is appropriate is for outreach/educational events. I just don't see the point in doing the operation just so someone could free handle their "pet" cobra. The way I see it a venomoid is like me getting a lion and dulling his teeth so I could play with him.

-Koshy George

Dave you might want to check this video out.

The reason for doing it is so somebody doesn't get bit and die. It doesn't matter how trained your are even the best keepers get bit. Venomoiding snakes is a responsible precautionary measure. I am sure at least half of the people arguing against e are missing a finger. If you are against venomoids you are against the reptile hobby because venomoids make people interested in the hobby. I love my snake and would never intentionally hurt it. It is healthy and fine. Stop fear mongering because you disagree with the procedure. I have a right to do what I want with my snake and my snake is active and healthy. As for the neutering people do it so there cats don't piss all over their house and go in heat. Altering animals for captivity is a perfectly legitimate process as they are no longer in a state of nature. Don't you guys like to alter your pythons and make albino and leucistics ? They don't need to be albino. Albinism certainly hurts them in that it makes them more sensitive to light and more likely to get killed in the wild. We also bred dogs to be more personable and loyal an less aggressive. qualities that may be detrimental in the wild. We certainly altered them by breeding them to fit our needs. Are you against dogs ? A little hypercritical don't you say ?

That video is bullshit look at the snakes they had their ducts removed not their glands. When the procedure was first started they only removed the ducts, which can grow back, so there was alot of still hots snakes on the market. Now they remove the glands which can't grow back. The snakes in that video had the ducts removed not that glands. Thats why they still give venom.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

The reason for doing it is so somebody doesn't get bit and die. It doesn't matter how trained your are even the best keepers get bit. Venomoiding snakes is a responsible precautionary measure.

There is always a danger in keeping hots and people who don't have the confidence, mental and physical skills should stay out of it. Not just alter so that they could feel better about themselves. Not every hot keeper gets bit.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

I am sure at least half of the people arguing against e are missing a finger.

How did you come up with this stat? I still have all my fingers.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

If you are against venomoids you are against the reptile hobby because venomoids make people interested in the hobby.

I think people who are interested in venomoids or doing it for the wrong reasons. There several other amazing snakes out their that don't have venom why not just choose one of those? Why would someone want a cobra? Is it to boost their manly-ness? Maybe to compensate for something he/she is lacking? I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

I love my snake and would never intentionally hurt it. It is healthy and fine. Stop fear mongering because you disagree with the procedure. I have a right to do what I want with my snake and my snake is active and healthy.

I never said you didn't "love" your snake? I never said it wasn't healthy or not taken care of. And I doubt I am "fear mongering". The only thing you got right is that I disagree with your procedure, that's just my opinion. And I never said you didn't have the right to do whatever you wanted with your snake. Maybe you should reread my post friend

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

As for the neutering people do it so there cats don't piss all over their house and go in heat. Altering animals for captivity is a perfectly legitimate process as they are no longer in a state of nature.

There are several other reason people neuter their pets for:
"Besides preventing unwanted pregnancies, neutering a male will help mitigate certain problem behavior found in whole males, and it will help prevent certain medical conditions, too.

* Neutered cats are less likely to spray strong urine
* Neutered cats will lose the urge to fight
* Neutered cats will be less likely to try to escape
* Neutered cats will not suffer the abscesses from fighting
* Neutered cats will be less likely to contract diseases such as FeLV and FIV
* Neutered cats will not be subject to testicular cancer
* Neutered cats will not likely develop "stud tail," caused by overactive glands in the tail
* Neutered cats have a decreased risk of mammary cancer
* Neutered cats are less allergenic

Basically, you have every reason to neuter your male cat. He will be a much more pleasant companion, and will ultimately be happier and healthier."
-About.com

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

Don't you guys like to alter your pythons and make albino and leucistics ? They don't need to be albino. Albinism certainly hurts them in that it makes them more sensitive to light and more likely to get killed in the wild.

Genetic mutations is not altering them. It's called line-breeding and/or selective breeding. For example, if one could genetically alter a cobra so that it didn't produce venom, I would not have a problem with. Like you said earlier, I have a problem with the procedure and with the people who are being attracted to it. I feel like they are getting into it for the wrong reason.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

We also bred dogs to be more personable and loyal an less aggressive. qualities that may be detrimental in the wild. We certainly altered them by breeding them to fit our needs. Are you against dogs ? A little hypercritical don't you say ?

There is a huge difference between dogs and snakes, and it's called domestication. Once again selective breeding comes into play. Like I said previously, I have no problem with selective breeding, it's the physical altercation of an animal that disturbs me. I am not against dogs. I just don't see how it's hypocritical. Please explain.

Originally Posted by davendonaldspets28

That video is bullshit look at the snakes they had their ducts removed not their glands. When the procedure was first started they only removed the ducts, which can grow back, so there was alot of still hots snakes on the market. Now they remove the glands which can't grow back. The snakes in that video had the ducts removed not that glands. Thats why they still give venom.

That is not my snake AND I am not educated enough to comment on THEIR snake. But the caption says this "In this video, we attempt to extract venom from several 'venomoid' cobras- snakes which have had their venom glands removed via a surgery." I am curious how you came to the conclusion that the ducts were removed? I posted that video to illustrate a point that venomoids give false confidence.

I don't own hots and never will.I get bit too much already by my snakes.I don't think anyone should alter a snake that is not to the snakes benefit.

Just my two cents.

+1

Agreed!