Summary:
I purchased a "female salmon boa" on October 15, 2012.
Todd Tindol was the owner of this snake. Apparently he had outstanding warrants and had to sit some time out in jail. Knowing that it was coming up, he got Shannon "Sean" Smith (of SS Rodents & Reptiles, Midland, TX) to hold onto his snakes and sell them. Todd was in jail from approximately September 26 (?) to October 24. The purchase was made while Todd was unavailable -- I met with Sean Smith and completed the transaction.
Today, October 25, 2012, I came to the realization that this boa is not a salmon nor hypo -- it is a pastel normal. I had posted a question on the redtailboas.com forum about what to properly call it (salmon vs hypo if origin is unknown), and when a member doubted that it was a hypo at all. As soon as I got home from work, I inspected the snake and removed any doubt in my mind that it was anything but a pastel. The thread can be viewed here:
http://www.redtailboas.com/f17/unkno...87/#post654169
I contacted Todd Tindol to inform him that this snake is genetically not what he sold it as. I offered two suggestions: 1) I give the snake back for a refund or 2) I keep the snake in my collection but receive a partial refund of $100. After a short period of contemplation, he decided that I am not entitled to any form of compensation at all.
The purchase price of this "salmon" was $175 and was paid in cash to Sean Smith. He has reportedly transferred the amount to Todd Tindol. I also did briefly see the snake in person prior to the purchase, but I mistakenly did not catch on at the time that it was not hypomelanistic. I've learned my lesson on naively taking the word of others and to be more detail-oriented during inspections. However, considering that this snake has been misrepresented (whether intentionally or not), I feel that he does owe me. Since he has flat refused to do so, I may as well make others aware of what happened so they don't fall victim as well.
Here are the
conversations with Todd Tindol. I have copied it word-for-word from Facebook chat, but I'll bold the dates for easier reading. Some of it occurred prior to purchase, and the rest of it occurred today:
Conversation started September 20
11:52am
Todd Tindol
Hi Amy. Sean told me that you had some questions about the Boa's I'm sellin'. Feel free to ask me anything you'd like to know.
12:26pm
Amy Chiu
hey todd ;]
i was just asking sean if we know how produced the hypo... or if he has any particular line?
you said she's a 2011, right?
12:28pm
Todd Tindol
I bought a pair of girls from S & S last year at the ETHS show in Katy, Tx. One was a normal Colombian and the other was sold to me as a Salmon. No details about a particular line.
Got it in Sept. of last year.
12:30pm
Amy Chiu
alright. i'll have to see her in person. i'm sure sean's pics do them no justice. but from what i can see, i like how she has thicker saddles than some hypos. some people like the really thin ones, but i think thicker ones give them more contrast
anything particularly notable about her color? or anything else that stands out to you?
12:31pm
Todd Tindol
She's got a beautiful salmon color to her. You'd better jump on her fast 'cause I'm really not sure I want to sell her.
12:34pm
Amy Chiu
hahah, alright. i'll arrange to meet her this weekend. i need to get some rodents from sean anyways. i have a 2010 summit pastel motley male and i'm thinking of what i want to pair him with... one of my considerations is a very pretty hypo
12:35pm
Todd Tindol
I love Motley's. If you get her, put me down for one of the offspring.
12:44pm
Amy Chiu
haha, alright ;D
12:45pm
Todd Tindol
I'll make you a good deal if you take both girls.
12:46pm
Amy Chiu
you wanted $250 for the hypo and $100 for the normal, right?
12:46pm
Todd Tindol
Yep but you can have the both of them for $300.
12:48pm
Amy Chiu
alright, i'll keep that in mind when i go see them. honestly, i was only considering one, since i'm eventually going to get another sharp/het sharp... but we shall see. i had also been eyeing a few on kingsnake and fauna, but i like that yours have had a head start
12:49pm
Todd Tindol
She's got good size to her and will be breedin' size at the end of the year if fed well but definitely next year if not power fed.
12:50pm
Amy Chiu
yeah, i dont know what sean was saying when he said they looked skinny. they look like they have great mass to me. he's probably more used to looking at pythons
12:50pm
Todd Tindol
No tellin'.
September 27
6:59pm
Amy Chiu
Hey Todd,
I forgot to tell you that I went and saw your snakes this past Monday. She's got a good size and looks pretty good for her age. I'm not sure if she's usually so dark though.
But anyways, I noticed that you and Sean went down on price. If you're willing to do $125 for her, I'll take her.
Let me know what you think,
Amy
Today
6:50pm
Amy Chiu
hey todd, are you there?
6:51pm
Todd Tindol
Hi Amy. Sorry that I didn't respond to your last message. Was unavailable.
6:51pm
Amy Chiu
lol, i know. its all good
i'm glad you're out now tho ;]
but i have a dilemma ;[
6:52pm
Todd Tindol
OH no. What's up?
6:53pm
Amy Chiu
the salmon isn't a salmon. it isn't a hypo at all... it is a normal pastel boa
6:54pm
Todd Tindol
It was sold to me as a Salmon. It looks nothin' like a normal Pastel.
6:54pm
Amy Chiu
sec, i'll post the thread to you
http://www.redtailboas.com/f17/unkno...87/#post654160
6:56pm
Todd Tindol
It's far prettier than the pic you sent me. I never said it was a Hypo. I've always claimed it was a Salmon because that's what I was told. She's a year and a half old and beautiful. If you're havin' second thoughts, I don't think you'd have any trouble gettin' what you paid out of her.
7:01pm
Amy Chiu
salmon is a specific type of hypo, which was developed by rich ihle of
www.salmonboa.com. so if she isn't a hypo, she definitely isn't a salmon either
i just posted that thread today, so if you like, you can watch it develop... but there really isn't a doubt in my mind that it isn't what it was sold to you as. i think the original seller scammed you too
but doing quick research, i found a pastel on fauna for $75, so it really don't have the value i paid for her
some pastels have higher values, but they're developed by big name breeders like jeff ronne. but we dont really know the origin of this snake
7:04pm
Todd Tindol
I got her at the show in Houston but don't know the name of the dude I got her from. The $75 snake you mentioned, is it a yearling?
7:05pm
Amy Chiu
pastel isn't truly a morph with boas either. it isn't a single-gene that controls it -- it is polygenetic
no, it is a breeding size male. i can find that link for you too
7:06pm
Todd Tindol
No biggie. I just told Sean what I was told.
7:06pm
Amy Chiu
yeah, i know. i don't think you're out to sell mis-represented animals
i don't think you knew either
and i didn't really know until i made that post and someone doubted me
7:07pm
Todd Tindol
No way, actually, was undecided as to whether or not I wanted to keep the Bum or that Boa and came home to find them both sold.
7:08pm
Amy Chiu
here's that pastel male... 3 years old:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=pastel
well, are you interested in taking her back?
7:09pm
Todd Tindol
Here's one I found.
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.p...=154&de=956133
7:10pm
Amy Chiu
yeah, that one isn't as clean, but has a very vivid tail
if you're willing to take her back, i can care for her until you're back in the area... or i can pass her back to sean and have him care for her (if he's willing)
btw, $200 shipped... for an over 5 ft boa, shipping would cost alot
but anyways
that's one option that i see. the other one is a partial refund of $100 and i'll keep her in my collection. but she may not be a breeder, since i was hoping to produce hypo-motleys eventually
7:13pm
Todd Tindol
Sorry but I don't want her back. I'm buyin' a new Hypo Ball.
7:14pm
Amy Chiu
what do you think of a partial refund?
7:16pm
Todd Tindol
I think I she's worth what you paid and the money's spent. You tried to talk me down to $125 before you even got her and it's nothin' about her genetics but you wanting a deal.
7:18pm
Amy Chiu
of course i want a deal, but genetics are definitely what i'm looking for. considering the snake is of unknown origin and pricing can be subjective, it wasn't unreasonable for me to offer. however, considering your situation, i felt that it wasn't a big deal and the extra $50 could have helped you out, so i went ahead and took her. however, now i'm finding that the snake was mis-interpreted, it is somewhat insulting for you to say something like that
7:19pm
Todd Tindol
I said that I bought her as a Salmon. I'm not a Boa expert and never claimed to be.
7:19pm
Amy Chiu
i know. but fact remains that she isn't a salmon
she's just a pretty normal
7:20pm
Todd Tindol
I've never seen a normal that looks like her.
7:20pm
Amy Chiu
as i stated, you can watch the thread develop with other people's opinions about her too. i'm not trying to be aggressive with you, i'm just trying to work this out with you
7:23pm
Todd Tindol
I appreciate it but I never claimed she was a Hypo. You looked at her prior to buyin' her and still wanted her.
7:24pm
Amy Chiu
you claimed she's a salmon. she isn't a salmon. it certainly is an oversight that i didn't catch that, but please don't make it my mistake that i took your word
7:25pm
Todd Tindol
I don't recall ever talkin' to you about her.
7:28pm
Amy Chiu
seriously todd... do you at least recognize that she isn't a salmon?
7:31pm
Todd Tindol
I never researched it Amy but am certain she's not just any ol' normal. You bought her after lookin' at her and I'm sorry you feel that you over paid. I don't need her myself but don't care to burn any bridges. I don't want you to feel cheated.
7:34pm
Amy Chiu
she's genetically still a normal. a very pretty normal. and i can understand your position, so that's why i offered the partial refund instead of insisting you take her back
i don't foresee her fitting into my future breeding plans, but i'm willing to keep her in my collection as a pet. but $75 is what i feel is reasonable
i'm trying to be flexible ;\
7:38pm
Todd Tindol
I wish you hadn't bought her already. I really want to think this over and talk with Sean.
7:39pm
Amy Chiu
that's definitely fine with me. i know it is probably alot to absorb at once. just get back with me
7:41pm
Todd Tindol
Will do. Sean and I are partners on this for the most part and he's researchin' things for me. If I'll definitely keep you in mind.
7:42pm
Amy Chiu
thanks. in the meantime, i'll get more opinions from boa people to determine and i'll keep you posted as well... but as of now, there really isn't any doubt in my mind
i know this discussion is irritating, but i'm pretty sure you and sean are good people
7:44pm
Todd Tindol
Sean's a sweet heart. Me, I'm a dick. lol Well, I've got some ex's that would swear to it.
7:46pm
Amy Chiu
lol, but wouldn't they all? thanks todd
7:51pm
Todd Tindol
I'll get back to you soon.
Meanwhile, during this conversation, a
thread was started in the Permian Basin Reptile Connection & Classifieds group on FB. I have taken screen shots of the entire conversation up to this point. Since there was quite a bit of extraneous comments, I have put arrows in front of my and Todd's comments so that they are more visible.
Note: Since I forgot to expand my comment, I retook the screenshot of this particular post.
After that transpired, I
messaged Todd Tindol again to confirm that this issue wasn't going to develop any further:
10:42pm
Amy Chiu
just confirming... final decision is made, right?
10:43pm
Todd Tindol
Yes it is. I honestly don't feel that you deserve a refund.
10:43pm
Amy Chiu
kk. thanks
Bad Guy - Todd Tindol of Midland, TX/Carlsbad, NM
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