What constitutes having "so-and-so lines"

I've been meaning to post this for quite awhile now, but I was afraid it would be confusing. I see people posting "from so-and-so lines" when describing their leopard gecko morphs, and I wonder what entitles someone to having their own line. I know of MANY breeders that acquired breeding stock from someone else's lines calling the offspring their own "line".

For example, Golden Gate Gecko "lines" are really not my own. My Tremper albinos are from Tremper lines, but they are GGG "stock". My stripes come from HISS, R2, K & N, and a few assorted hold-backs. My SHTCTB's are from HISS, Masterpiece, Albey, and Ray Hine lines. My Blizzards and Patternless would really be the only morph that I would even consider calling "GGG lines" because I developed them into their current state. Kelli has taken the Bell line albino, and developed them into her own. The Mack snows are from the Mack lines, but does that mean that the breeder that produces their offspring have the right to call them their own? (Just an example... not intended for another snow war).

IMO, the breeders that developed the morph is the line, while the breeders that produce the offspring are from their "stock". So, how many generations of outcrossing or line breeding does it take in order to claim a morph as your own line?

Sorry if this is confusing... heck, I am confused just trying to convey my question!

My take may be slightly different as I'm outside of the gecko world, but we see similiar things in the bearded dragon arena. I think there is a level of pride in where a person's reptile came from. To say your hypo tangerine came from Golden Gate Geckos as opposed to some no name backyard breeder is your customer expressing the pride in their purchase. Now technically you may have not done anything unique to make that your line, yet the quality of one of your geckos (as an example) gives it a higher standing than someone that hasn't generated a name in the industry. There is no clear cut way of defining this attribute though.

umm marcia, i dont know i am new here

I agree with you both. It is a degree of pride. But we are talking about making these Leo's and there offspring "their own line". I think that if you have held your group for a couple years or more even if you haven't changed there appearance, they are still YOUR bloodline, as long as you have contributed something special to that Leo. Everyones Leo's came from the leopards in Asia. KelliH has breed her own group so much and has made her bloodline so much stronger that people that I have talked to say that a leopard from her is much tougher and grows faster then leopards from other people.

Just my thoughts. There is a thin line somewhere.

Hmm, interesting question Marcia. Here are my thoughts on the whole subject. A line would equal the developer/discoverer of the animal ie.. The Mack snow. Now if you you happened to pop out co-dom snows from a project they would be considered g3 line. Also, if these animals were being imported, which they aren't, and you imported a red stripe that was different than the current lines available it would be considered your line of redstripe. It would represent a different bloodline to keep track of.

As far as people line breeding animals, I am not sure what exactly would constitute it becoming "their" line although, I believe there are some clear examples ie.. HISS's shtct. Perhaps, when a line is outcrossed and improved at the same time it should be considered a new line as new blood "lines" are introduced and a change in appearance occurs. Now, I also believe that in line bred traits if you single out a trait and outcross it and continually improve it to where no one else is producing that trait it would be considered that persons line. Just my thoughts.

Marcia,
It would seem that there are a lot of factors at play. I've thought about your question for a while also. Obviously a "new morph" gives way to a new line. But what about selective breeding. I know a lot of us claim to selectively breed, but I think some of us define it differently. It seems like line breeding and selective breeding are sometimes confused. Selective breeding, to me, means keeping back the geckos that are appealing to you, as a breeder, for whatever reason (color, size, temperament, etc...). As you select your favorites season after season, your geckos should begin to have a "unique look"...and hence, they become "your line". But I agree with you that a better term would be "stock", rather than "line". A tremper line albino is a tremper now matter how you mess with it. But, A&M, for example, has a unique look to their trempers. Just some thoughts. It think it has more to do with having a "unique look"...abstract as that might be.

I think this is a very good question. One I have thought about alto over the last year myself. My starting pair is a SHTCT male from APlus Geckos my female is a SHCT from HISS (KelliH). Now when I first got these 2 I thought they was from 2 totally different "lines". But when I talked with Kelli she made the comment that APlus had got quite a few geckos from her in the past. So I called APlus back and talk with them and sure enough it was true. So now I have breed these 2 and so far the offspring as been awesome, but now I am wondering what I need to get to breed my holdbacks with. Or is it even necessary? I think it could go either way. A new morph is a given, but on the other hand Kelli's SHTCT or her Bell Hybino I think are her "lines" they look so much different than everybody else's. I think if you outcross for different traits not necessarily new morphs, but character, color and so on to produce a more viverant stronger gecko even if you did not originally start the morph it could be considered your "line".

Originally Posted by g&mgeckos

I think this is a very good question. One I have thought about alto over the last year myself. My starting pair is a SHTCT male from APlus Geckos my female is a SHCT from HISS (KelliH). Now when I first got these 2 I thought they was from 2 totally different "lines". But when I talked with Kelli she made the comment that APlus had got quite a few geckos from her in the past. So I called APlus back and talk with them and sure enough it was true. So now I have breed these 2 and so far the offspring as been awesome, but now I am wondering what I need to get to breed my holdbacks with. Or is it even necessary? I think it could go either way. A new morph is a given, but on the other hand Kelli's SHTCT or her Bell Hybino I think are her "lines" they look so much different than everybody else's. I think if you outcross for different traits not necessarily new morphs, but character, color and so on to produce a more viverant stronger gecko even if you did not originally start the morph it could be considered your "line".

Thats a great example of how short the lines are to the first leo's that came to the States. If you have a breeder that has been taking records since the late 80's, then he will tell you that all the animals that he has now are from the groups in Asia.

I plan to mark mine as where they came from and info I get from the seller so the Tang Albino male I haev coming from Manhattan herps is an albeys line so Ill put him on my breeder page as Acquired from Manhattan Herps/Albeys Lines. For some that I don't know their background I just put the morph and where they came from if it was a breeder.

I think its more for bragging rights of who you bought from since Hisss, GGG, R2, Albeys and many others are known to produce the nicest leos.

I just started to do this! Each animal has a detailed page that shows the parents, and if it was purchased from another breeder it says it (ex. http://www.milwaukeereptiles.com/ani...nimalID=LG-017).

To answer Marcia's question (in my opinion anyway), I think the development or discovery of a new morph/gene is right to call it your own line. I would say that with selective and line-breeding, it would not be based on how many generations, but rather what characteristic makes your "line" unique from the next person's. To call something my own line would mean that I have developed it to a point in which it has characteristics (or genetics) make it distinguishable from anyone else's leos.