Florida bill to require permits for large reptiles!

I found this article in Florida Today 2-10-06. Just wondering what everyone thought.

TALLAHASSEE - Alligator-eating, headline-grabbing Burmese pythons in the Everglades are giving reptile regulators the push they need to seek a law governing exotic snakes and giant lizards much like guns.

At a Capitol press conference Thursday, Rep. Ralph Poppell, R-Vero Beach, and Sen. Bill Posey, R-Rockledge, announced intentions to require $100 permits for anyone hoping to own a giant python or Nile monitor lizard, among other yet-to-be named exotic reptiles.

These pets are relatively common in Brevard County. Last year 14 people and two establishments had permission from the state to keep venomous reptiles.

And there have been mishaps.

In April 2005, a man was bitten by a black mamba at one facility in West Melbourne. He survived after being flown to Miami for emergency treatment. In June 2003, a woman in unincorporated Brevard near Rockledge was attacked by her escaped 13-foot pet Burmese python. The snake was pried loose and returned to his cage.

It's not ownership so much as disposal of the critters that sponsors want to control.

Though most released or escaped scaly pets are small and considered little threat in their new South Florida homes, some are large enough, and eat enough, to cause concern. A breeding population of Burmese python, for instance, is now established in Everglades National Park.

Wildlife officers last year trapped 71 Burmese pythons, not counting the 13-foot python that made headlines by eating a 6-foot alligator and then exploding before it could digest its rotting dinner.

"This is a worthwhile bill, but it will be worthless without law enforcement and funding," said Eugene Bessette, an avid python breeder and member of the advisory council helping the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission draft its proposed legislation.

Bessette endorsed expansion of the state's snake permitting program, saying it will help the retail industry in the long run. "What we want to do, more than anything, is eliminate the impulse buy.

"Reptiles make great pets, we've just got to do a better job across the board, the industry as well as regulators, in educating the public," he said.

State game wardens already can regulate captive poisonous snakes. The bill, still being drafted, largely replaces the word "venomous" with "regulated," and gives the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission broader power to decide what poses a threat.

Species on the control list will likely include the Burmese python, reticulated python, African rock python, amethystine python, anaconda and Nile monitor lizard.

Poppell said a key part of the proposed legislation will be an amnesty program that allows owners no longer infatuated with their gigantic lizards and snakes to drop them off, penalty free.

"Better to let them loose on us rather than let them loose at the end of your street," Posey said.

Lions, tigers and bearcats may be next.

Carol Baskin, CEO of Big Cat Rescue, a Tampa sanctuary with a center in Brevard, said she hopes for legislation next that bans their breeding and sales in Florida

I was aware of this a few months ago but was told there would be a $50 fee for large boas and pythons such as you listed. Many of the breeders in FL agree with it because it's better than an outright ban on these animals like other states have done and are considering doing. I'm not sure if the fee will cover multiple large boids or if it's a per animal thing. As far as I know I believe it's one fee regardless of number of animals. If it were a per animal fee I'd be much more upset about it. My guess is a lot of people will keep the listed animals as pets and not pay the fee but we'll see.

As a burm,retic keeper, here in Fl, I am all for it!!!!

But they need to do more, as this will NOT effect the ones in the wild now. Also it will do little good if the pet stores are not required to check to see if the buyer has the permit or not. Kinda like checking ID's for beer, or cigarettes. I have always felt the pet stores are as much to blame as the @$$ holes that let them loose. If something is not done, we WILL lose our right to keep them. This is a good start in my mind, but A LOT MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As said I would much rather pay a fee, then to have them banned outright.

Originally Posted by Bighaze

I have always felt the pet stores are as much to blame as the @$$ holes that let them loose.

Yeah, blame the seller. Everyone but the irresponsible person who bought the animal and then turned it loose is to blame. You forgot to blame the breeder too.

"Everyone but the irresponsible person who bought the animal and then turned it loose is to blame."

You might of missed it but I do blame the person who bought, and then let loose the animal,

"I have always felt the pet stores are as much to blame as the @$$ #$%@# that let them loose."

Yep right there, I did say " AS MUCH TO BLAME AS......"

I guess there are breeders out there who will sell to anyone too, just glad I have NEVER meant one.

But the sellers, your damn right I blame them!!! If they wouldn't sell snakes that can get to be 20'+ to KIDS and irresponsible people, then maybe we wouldn't have the wild ones in the glads!!! I know of, have seen, and even been banned from pet stores that sell burms to KIDS. I'm sorry but in my mind, NO ONE SHOULD EVER SELL A BURM,RETIC,ROCK.... TO A 15 YEAR OLD!!! Would you?

Also if you had to pay more then $40-$50 for a snake that can get that big, you might not be so fast to let it loose.( again the sellers are part to blame as they set the retail price). Funny, you never hear of a $40,000 ball morph being let loose, do you?

Originally Posted by Bighaze

I guess there are breeders out there who will sell to anyone too, just glad I have NEVER meant one.

I wonder where the pet store gets their snakes? Oh yeah, breeders. You can't control who gets these snakes once they are out of your hands.

Originally Posted by Bighaze

But the sellers, your damn right I blame them!!! If they wouldn't sell snakes that can get to be 20'+ to KIDS and irresponsible people,

Explain to me how you know someone is going to be irresponsible? It would be nice if they had a label stating that fact so I would know before making a sale.

I have a few specific questions I always ask people who are going to buy snakes that get huge. If they don't answer those questions right, I steer them to the corns, kings, milks & balls.

Originally Posted by Bighaze

I'm sorry but in my mind, NO ONE SHOULD EVER SELL A BURM,RETIC,ROCK.... TO A 15 YEAR OLD!!! Would you?

Nope and I never have. I refused sale of an Afrock to a skinny little kid who was around 10 or 12 years old. He was w/his mother who weighed in at about 90 or 100 pounds. I talked w/them about how big the snake would get, housing, feeding, etc. They lived alone, no father at home. I flat out told them they couldn't handle a snake that in a year will weigh more than both of them and I refused to sell it to them. I tried to get her to buy a ball python or a king or corn (all of which were $20+ cheaper than the rock) but the kid wanted that rock. I took a good cussing over that until the owner of the store asked them to leave.

Originally Posted by Bighaze

Also if you had to pay more then $40-$50 for a snake that can get that big, you might not be so fast to let it loose.( again the sellers are part to blame as they set the retail price). Funny, you never hear of a $40,000 ball morph being let loose, do you?

I've also never heard of a $30 BP or a $20 Cali-king loose either. Your analogy is proven wrong every week in animal shelters all over the U.S.A. Just because an animal costs more than $40 or $50 doesn't guarantee that it will be well taken care of. Heck price doesn't guarantee that the person will even take care of it.

I have been volunteering at an animal shelter for over 10 years now. I can't tell you how many high dollar, purebred dogs and a few cats we get through there. Many come with papers. The most recent one was a great dane the person paid $500 for. He called and said if we couldn't take it that very day then he'd have to turn it loose because he was moving that day to a new apartment that didn't allow dogs over 5 pounds.

Your argument that a cheap animal is more likely to be turned loose doesn't hold water either. To get a snake up to 10' it costs a lot of money. These huge snakes that are released have had a lot of food put into them by their owners over and above the $40 it took to buy the 10" hatchling. The way you write it makes it sound like a 15 y/o kid plunked down $40, got a 10' snake, was overwhelmed by it and then released it into the glades. Didn't happen that way. Some of those snakes were albinos and albinos are NOT and have never been $40.

Does anyone even know WHO is releasing these large snakes? Has anyone ever been caught doing it? The way you write, it's kids releasing the snakes. How do we know it's kids doing it when in reality nobody knows? I get miffed when people point fingers and make accusations without a shred of evidence.

As to where the snakes came from one of my theories is this: Some snakes were released and some escaped a few years ago. They've been breeding and now there is a large population.

One large Burmese can lay 60 eggs a year. (been there, done that)Let's say all 60 eggs hatch (done that one too) and 25 of them are females. With no natural predators and tons of food they stand a good chance at surviving to breeding size. In 3 or 4 years those 25 females each lay 20 eggs and all hatch. That's a potential of 500 babies. Let's assume that 30% of that 500 are females. (very conservative figure too) Now we have the original female, 25 females and 200 more females. In 3 or 4 years all of these lay 20 eggs. Do the math. In as little as 5-10 years the Burmese population will balloon out of control. From what I read it sounds like we're at that point now.

I also think that after a few snakes made the headlines, unscrupulous individuals released animals just to see the uproar on the news.

You can place blame anywhere. Why not blame the importers. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't have Burmese, Afrocks, retics and 'condas at all now would we?

What it all boils down to is the individual. It doesn't have much to do with who sold the snake.

I do see your point, and your right about most of it.

"Explain to me how you know someone is going to be irresponsible? It would be nice if they had a label stating that fact so I would know before making a sale."

That is why the state needs to step in and regulate how these snakes are sold and to who. They also need to check up on the person to make sure they still have said snake, or show proof of it's sale,or death, or what ever, and are giving it the right care if they still have it. They need to make it where you must show you have the permit BEFORE you can take the snake home. It should also be a little harder then just sending in the fee, you should need to pass a few tests that would show you can take care of, and handle a lg reptile. I mean to keep hots you have to have so many hrs with them first, why not do the same for lg snakes?

Will this put a stop to dumb 's releasing pets, no but I have no idea what will, what it will do is cut down the numbers, and maybe even catch a person or two doing it.

I have read they might try to ban large non-domestic cats and dogs, and primates as well. It's hard to get good information because so many articles are biased or innacurate. Do any of you have further information on this? I don't care about the large cat ban personally, but I had planned on getting a monkey in the next few years since I'm starting up a non-profit wildlife education program and that would be a wonderful asset.
It just really pisses me off that a few irresponsible owners ruin it for others, they should be punished, not those who do care for their animals responsibley.

For those that are interested there is a meeting going on Thursday and Friday that involves a group that meets to discuss these possible new laws. The meeting is in Orlando. I know that there is 1 "big" reptile breeder there representing the "reptile industry" There are others on this council that may not be in our best interest...as of yet i have not been to any of these meetings. You can check the my florida website and look up the info there it is under the wildlife section...I have not personally been to the website...but my business partner is heavily interested in this subject and i get all my info from him.

The panel that is meeting is just an advisory panel. It is made up of industry professionals from all sides of the animal world, from veterinarians, to rehabbers, to ASA/zoological park people, to a couple of producers. Since it is just an advisory panel everything they come up with could either be set in stone or completely thrown out with the wash water or somewhere in between.

You can see and read the minutes if you google up Captive Wildlife Technical Advisory Committee. I don't feel comfortable posting names but I will say that in the 2 meetings I went to and the 2 other that I inquired about only a handfull of concerned persons showed. On the larger of the two meetings Iwent to there was about 6 reptile breeders, 1 show promoter, and about 4 aviculturists(bird people).

I see lots and lots of people getting all bend out of shape, arguing on whoes to blame for many of the situations/incidents/accidents, and others claiming the "sky is falling".

The owning of reptiles is not a constitutional right so it is a privileage of living in a "free" country. The best things we can all do is conduct ourselves in an educated professinal manner, and police ourselves.

Tomorrow and this weekend at the All Florida HErp conference I know a lot of people will be talking and anyone show try and make it up to find out wat is going on.

Thanks
ben cole