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Trans x trans?

spyder79 said:
Tom

For the sake of a good discussion I have a quandary for you. So breeding a directly bred trans line to another trans line (such as was mentioned earlier where a phantom trans was bred to a bbank trans) causes fairly severe issues within the offspring of the pairing. But if you breed a trans to a het or a het to a het and then breed one of the visual trans offspring to another visual tran offspring from a different het to het pairing would it then allow for a much higher survival rate of the offspring or do you feel you would still see the high mortality rate in the clutches (granted I think all but one dieing had a lot more to do with a very genetically weak set of parents and possibly some other issues).
Click to expand...

Well, I have been breeding them for 3 yrs. they have been in this country for, 5-6 yrs? So i am sure all that het to het from two clutches have been done. And its not enough time. But that gene is way past that stage.

Its also not so much a mortality rate. sometimes your talking about............ physical complications. Its why i want Matt to answer my question. He said he crossed a Trans to Trans. Maybe he would like to share his results.
i mean you can cross a trans to a normal, het nothing. and still have problems. its just in the gene! Dont get me wrong there are healthy translucent males and translucent females here that have 100% hatch and they all live, NO issues. Thats why there here. Certain gene's are weaker than others. some translucents have certain genetic issues. an when you take two genetic traits, with issues,(doesnt have to be just trans, just more prone to problems) then cross them together your creating more problems. you made even the healthy babies in a group like that "weaker" by crossing two weak lines. So your now going backwards.

I think the trans line has come along way. Awhile back the trans use to be like a dirt color brown, black eyes and milky scales, long, slender and skinny.
Now you have all kinds of different trans genes. trans, hypo trans, trans leatherbacks translucent silkbacks and hypo trans silkbacks. And there healthy. There more filled out. a stocky build oppose to a long and slender build. Not only that there in color! Yellow, orange, and red. So all that wrapped into a "weak morph". It pretty damn good. And its only getting better.

Attached a few pics of different morph translucents.
reg trans
trans leather
trans silkback

Tom
 

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There are still problems with pairing Trans X Trans together. A friend did just that and has lost some for no apparent reason. They have also experienced a baby that came out with visual defects and it also died. Most of the rest are also showing issues that are showing um odd behavior and aggression. The line still needs some work before Trans X Trans can be paired and have health babies. The breeders also came from different breeders, but this still happened.
And Tom, you make me ill with those pictures! You big show off! LOL
 
Your not kidding when you say they have come along way this is one of joshes dragons i purchased last year.

He's 22 inches and 800+ grams citrus trans. the pic does him no justice on his yellow color but is nice and bright patern less.
picture.php
 
Tom,
Im not trying to really defend myself here as i am still new and ignorant to some things,However i also said that this was 3 or so yrs ago and as you said they have only been around for few yrs, so not only was i really new in breeding as i have only bred for 5 yrs now and owned for 8 but i was extremely ignorant then.
I didnt do as well as i could have as i was young and dumb.
However i have strived to learn as much as i can in this hobby witch is why i call from time to time and also talk with alot of others such as sunshine dragons and even have called and chatted with th dichu's a time or 2.
I by no means are good friends with them (would love to be though) lol
But i call alot of people with questions and am always up for corrections.

Im very happy this thread was started cause i dont seem to be the only person confused with this :)
Thanks all for the info and comments
Hit me up soon Tom i would like to actually talk about a few things with ya then on genetics.
 
Omnomnami said:
22 inches and 800+ grams!! O.O He's one big healthy boy! Congrats on him! :)
Click to expand...

Thank you

I don't think even Josh was expecting him to get this big. I hand picked him from a group a few months later he had some really big growth spurts and there be is.
 
:D This is my Trans x Trans baby Sweet Pea, I've yet to noticed a thing wrong with her, and she's growing extremely fast, my mom is shocked at how much bigger she's gotten each time she sees her. I wanna say she hatched mid march...

sweetpea3.png
sweetpea2.png

Give her a few crickets and she's a very happy girl :thumbsup:
sweetpea1.png

This is one of her siblings at about 4 weeks also:
baby2.jpg


There use to be a thread with a picture of daddy on it "Orange and green tiger translucent male PROVEN" but the pictures are gone.
Someone I dated hatched them, and I'm pretty sure every egg in the clutch hatched without any problems, and none of them died, or had cosmetic flaws of any sort. When I first got sweet pea her eyes weren't all black at about 2 months they filled in, it was only her and 2 other siblings that didn't come out with the all black eyes. I can't remember what the mother was, but her color wasn't spectacular, she was just really sweet, and has since been proven out as het hypo.
 
Bearded Ambitions said:
I have only bred a trans to a trans 1 time before i was told the health would be unstable.
I bred a het hypo trans from Phantom dragons with a Trans from Bloodbank
and i only had 1 babie live out of 28 eggs.
All but 4 hatched and most didn't last past the first week.
However 1 babie did survive and it was not a visual trans ?
.
Click to expand...

Exactly what question did you want anwserd again Tom
Sorry lil confused lol.
So far in my 5 yrs of breeding i have only had this 1 clutch all die ?
So im not 100% sure why they all but 1 died.
I sold the tranz dragons not because the babies died but because i was to inexperianced to want to keep killing babies and doing the wrong things so i sold them till i was more educated in trans and breeding in general.
Again i have never had any probs incubating or raising dragons as babies.
Only other time i had a prob is when i had a female that was agressive that i bred only to have all the babies darn near eat every other babie.
All 34 babies ended p w nips some extream 1 even was killed when tried to swallow another babie and choked when he got half way down.
I fed them all well and even had no more than 5 babies per tank in 1 time.
I was later told it could have ben due to the agression in the mother to begin ??
Thats 1 question i had for you Tom.
Is agression or attatude passed from parent to babie.?:thumbsup:
Matt
 
Wow. I've never heard of a baby trying to eat another baby. It does sound like they got the evil gene from mom haha.
 
Bearded Ambitions said:
Exactly what question did you want anwserd again Tom
Sorry lil confused lol.
So far in my 5 yrs of breeding i have only had this 1 clutch all die ?
So im not 100% sure why they all but 1 died.
I sold the tranz dragons not because the babies died but because i was to inexperianced to want to keep killing babies and doing the wrong things so i sold them till i was more educated in trans and breeding in general.
Again i have never had any probs incubating or raising dragons as babies.
Only other time i had a prob is when i had a female that was agressive that i bred only to have all the babies darn near eat every other babie.
All 34 babies ended p w nips some extream 1 even was killed when tried to swallow another babie and choked when he got half way down.
I fed them all well and even had no more than 5 babies per tank in 1 time.
I was later told it could have ben due to the agression in the mother to begin ??
Thats 1 question i had for you Tom.
Is agression or attatude passed from parent to babie.?:thumbsup:
Matt
Click to expand...


If I remember correctly it was me you had that conversation with (cause you allowed me to use the pics of your babies as part of a housing article I drafted up for another site). And I am of the opinion that some personality traits (such as aggression of submissiveness) can be passed down from parents to offspring. But that is my opinion and I have no "scientific" proof of that.
 
I agree,
I have a female hypo she is about 20" and ever since she was like 12" or so she has had the sourist additude toward me lol. So I have bred her twice now and like a couple of her, female babys were the exact same why, not just out of the egg like dragons can be but like until they were 8" and I started to sell them...
 
I didn't read this whole tread but I was told if you breed trans to trans you get normals that breeding two trans will not give you trans at all..
 
joseydiann said:
I didn't read this whole tread but I was told if you breed trans to trans you get normals that breeding two trans will not give you trans at all..
Click to expand...

That is not correct. The translucent gene is a recessive gene and to have a visual representation of it both parents have to either be het for trans or homozygous for trans. Breeding a visual trans to a visual trans(or het trans) will result in translucent offspring. Breeding a hypo trans to a hypo trans will result in what is called a "super" trans. If you breed a trans to a non-trans than that would result in visual normals but they would be 100% het trans.
 
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From other peoples experiences the Trans to trans has been a no no.
Like Tom was saying earlier, the hypo to hypo cross is usually no problem as it has been outcrossed big time, but even then some hypo to hypo crosses can be week. Babies will be small and weak if the lines are too close.

I have seen for my self several trans to trans crossings. None of them being done by me as I try to steer far from it with hets or trans to hets.
In the times it was been done a couple years ago, the results were disastrous.
Will not be naming the breeder but this is what happened.
The First clutches offspring from a trans het hypo to hypotrans pairing were insane in what we would call super translucents or purple translucents. They lived ok for the first few weeks and then litterally started to drop dead. I personally bought 6 of them because of how crazy they looked, healthy as a matter a fact. All of the ones I bought and then the ones he had... died.
In another instance, someone elses clutch came out litterally deformed and with swollen joints. Poor choice again. All died

I have seen healthy adults with poor vision, head shakes, and poor movements.

Due to what I saw with my own eyes I will NOT do trans to trans combinations any time soon.

BUT, recently their has been a couple people with the trans to trans combination. And they did them without a bump. All babies being healthy and growing like a regular dragon. This I have also seen with my own eyes, even caring for a couple with a close eye on their behavior out of curiosity.

Maybe we are outcrossing them enough that it will be able to be done with out a problem. For the time being Ill stick with my hets and will agree with Tom as it will take some to outcross this beautiful but yet weak gene.
 
leucistic x leucistic

For those interested in looking there is an add in the bearded dragon classifieds with baby Leucistic x leucistic and they look 100% perfect. As of the time of this writing they are on page 3 for sale by salas dragons. He states both parents were 100% marketed leucistics which are consequentially trans. Someone should check these babies out and follow up with them. I am on the fence about all this because I have bred trans to trans as stated earlier in this post but I have had problems with trans adults purchased from other people that just couldnt cut it no matter what I did. I also going to look at some dragons tomorrow that may be something new and are from trans x trans breeding with lava hypo trans reduced scale x hypo trans leatherback and they came out the wrong color for what was supposed to pop. I will keep you all posted on them.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189349
link to add with marketed leucistic babies from trans x trans
 
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rpeteroy said:
For those interested in looking there is an add in the bearded dragon classifieds with baby Leucistic x leucistic and they look 100% perfect. As of the time of this writing they are on page 3 for sale by salas dragons. He states both parents were 100% marketed leucistics which are consequentially trans. Someone should check these babies out and follow up with them. I am on the fence about all this because I have bred trans to trans as stated earlier in this post but I have had problems with trans adults purchased from other people that just couldnt cut it no matter what I did. I also going to look at some dragons tomorrow that may be something new and are from trans x trans breeding with lava hypo trans reduced scale x hypo trans leatherback and they came out the wrong color for what was supposed to pop. I will keep you all posted on them.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189349
link to add with marketed leucistic babies from trans x trans
Click to expand...


Those are not trans animals. Those are marketed leucistic (AKA very white/low color Hypo dragons). So in essence that is a hypo X hypo cross.
 
marketed leucistics

Sorry spyder you need to know what you are talking about first But all marketed leucistics are trans. Know your genes first before you post.
 
rpeteroy said:
Sorry spyder you need to know what you are talking about first But all marketed leucistics are trans. Know your genes first before you post.
Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Are you fricking kidding me man. You realize that a Marketed Leucistic
is just that a MARKETING term. They are not actual leucistic animals. They are merely very low color/paper white dragons that were selectively bred for no color. Often they are combined with the hypo gene to intensify this lack of color by removing even more of the dark pigmentation but they are deffinately not translucent lmao.

Now i believe the confusion that you are having is that the Trans has black eyes which would lead you to believe that a trans would be a leucistic (because the leucistic gene in reptiles typically results in solid blue eyes) but this is not the case. The actual leucistic gene has not popped up yet in the bearded dragon world.

Now the translucent gene is merely translucent skin thats it. It has nothing to do with Hypomelanism or Leucism.

Now before you tell someone they need to know what they are talking about you need to know what you are talking about.

:thumbsup:
 
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